Call weapon trick?

[druid91]

I was looking at this. and nothing forbids you from summoning one of the various guns or lasers in the DMs guide except DM interference.

[The Rabbler]

except DM interference.

And those weapons don't normally exist except with DM interference.

[lesser_minion]

In addition, note what is missing from this line:


If you call a projectile weapon, it comes with 3d6 nonmagical bolts, arrows, or sling bullets, as appropriate.

By default, those weapons aren't available without DM intervention. Even when they are, they don't come with any ammunition.

[druid91]

Depending on setting they might exist somewhere.

Prime example planescape. There is a cyberplane logically meaning their is advanced tech somewhere.

[lesser_minion]

Prime example planescape. There is a cyberplane logically meaning their is advanced tech somewhere.

Unless the DM explicitly decides that they are available, they aren't. Even if the DM does decide that they are available, you have no way to use them.

Not every campaign is even set in planescape. Even then, there's still no guarantee that firearms or lasers are available in the setting.

[Tael]

In addition, note what is missing from this line:



By default, those weapons aren't available without DM intervention. Even when they are, they don't come with any ammunition.

+1. Guns have to ammo, lasers no batteries, etc.

Also, how does said weapon caller know about guns and high tech stuff in the first place?

[Re'ozul]

call ballista?

[druid91]

+1. Guns have to ammo, lasers no batteries, etc.

Also, how does said weapon caller know about guns and high tech stuff in the first place?

knowledge:scifi?

[Hazzardevil]

Ooh, Ooh pick me!
:smallbiggrin:
He imagines a crossbow that shoots eldritch blasts and gets a laser gun!

[druid91]

In addition taking another look at the text, it seems to me that the powercell is a part of the laser. It isn't shot out the end like an arrow.

It allows the laser to work and is thus part of the weapon.

So if it gives you a handle to your sword it should give a powercell to your laser.

And finally, the power doesn't say the weapon has to exist.

By RAW it should work. Of course the DM will probably hit you.

[Cerlis]

but you dont know what a laser is.

[Epsilon Rose]

Which dmg has guns and lasers?

[druid91]

RAW answer is Exotic weapon proficiency:(futuristic).

logically you know what it is you are proficient with.

3.5 DMG the standard one.

[lesser_minion]

And finally, the power doesn't say the weapon has to exist.

Yes it does.


actually, it is a real weapon hailing from another location in space and time

Knowledge: Science Fiction, by the way, does not give you knowledge of what weapons will be developed at some point in the future. Only what the authors of your location and time period think would make for a cool story.

And taking EWP (futuristic) again requires the DM to explicitly include it into the campaign setting.


In addition taking another look at the text, it seems to me that the powercell is a part of the laser. It isn't shot out the end like an arrow.

It is not an integral part of the weapon. It is removable, replacable, and expended when you use the weapon. As far as the rules are concerned, a power cell is a piece of ammunition, and it doesn't come with the laser weapon.

[druid91]

I'm arguing RAW you are arguing sense. they are incompatible.

Another location in space and time. Thank you for provingmy point.

An arrow is a seperate weapon in and of itself. A powercell is a general use part that happens to be used up.

Especially considering nowhere is powercell listed as an ammunition.Mmerely in each weapons description as a part that needs to be replaced.

Bullets are specifically called out as a weapon.

[Gralamin]

Now this is just silly.

Renaissance

Gunpowder: ...An ounce of gunpowder is needed to propel a bullet. Gunpowder is sold in small kegs.

Bullets: ...lead projectiles are sold in bags of 10.

Modern

Ammunition: Modern era firearms use bullets essentially similar to those used in Remaissance firearms.

Those are the most explicit, so we can agree those are right out, yes?

Futuristic

Laser Pistol: ...needs to be reloaded...

Antimatter Rifle: ...Reloading the weapon...

Laser Rifle: ...needs to be reloaded...

Flamer: ...contains a fuel pack with enough concentrated flamer fuel for ten shots. Installing a new fuel pack requires...

Now the only rules existing for reloading are:

Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading.
Thus, reloading is an action associated with ammunition. So, we must conclude that if something is to be reloaded, what is being loaded is ammunition.

The flamer notably states it installs a new pack. This is completely different terminology then anything existing, and so isn't strictly reloading, though it seems to function the same. RAMS it's ammo, RAW nothing indicates that a fuel pack is ammunition, and there is indication that a fuel pack is part of the Flamer. That said, the fuel pack contains what seems to be the ammo: The pack itself isn't, the fuel inside is. This makes it analogous to a quiver, and it could be argued that you thus get an empty flamer pack.

[druid91]

I didn't intend for it to be serious. Just an interesting trick I thought of.

And even if the laser doesn't work you could still create a frag grenade. 2d6 damage for 1 PP at first level ain't half bad.

And reloading is associated with ammunition with normal d&d weapons, that actually project said ammunition towards an opponent.

Does the lasergun throw the powercell at someone? No it does not. It uses it to power the functions of the laser itself. Even if the powercell is lacking, all you need is some alternate form of power.

Some electrical attack into it anyone?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm arguing RAW you are arguing sense. they are incompatible.

"Yeah, well, they don't exist in this world."

And that's where it ends.

Or if they do it was never really anything than applying the spell in the way it was meant to.

[druid91]

"Yeah, well, they don't exist in this world."

And that's where it ends.

Or if they do it was never really anything than applying the spell in the way it was meant to.

Then you get into an argument about the trousers of time.

And still are put in a situation where it is entirely reasonable in every arena but meta-gaming "this is not right it is too strong" sense.

[Gralamin]

And reloading is associated with ammunition with normal d&d weapons, that actually project said ammunition towards an opponent.

Does the lasergun throw the powercell at someone? No it does not. It uses it to power the functions of the laser itself. Even if the powercell is lacking, all you need is some alternate form of power.

Some electrical attack into it anyone?

You are attempting to bring in the definition of projectile when the weapons are already defined as projectile weapons. The real definition is irrelevant :smalltongue:

[druid91]

It is a projectile weapon yes. It projects a beam of light, that it creates.

it creates this using power from the powercell.

it is inherently different than shooting an arrow.

the powercell is a part of the laser.

otherwise you could also rule that your sword comes without a sharp edge.

And still, the laser doesn't work. Frag grenade. Boom.

In addition the power doesn't say anything aside from weapons may be called.

If you rule the powercell is a separate object it can be an Improvised weapon. Manifest the power twice, stick the powercell in and go to town on the primitives with crossbows.

[lesser_minion]

It is a projectile weapon yes. It projects a beam of light, that it creates.

it creates this using power from the powercell.

it is inherently different than shooting an arrow.

the powercell is a part of the laser.

We've given you the RAW. Even if what you say is RAI, you're trying to use RAI in a discussion about a silly trick you want to pull using RAW. See the problem?


In addition the power doesn't say anything aside from weapons may be called.

It does, however, make an explicit provision for projectile weapons.


If you rule the powercell is a separate object it can be an Improvised weapon.

No it can't. That's a special property of arrows and crossbow bolts, and is otherwise under the purview of the DM.

[Zonugal]

Personally I might rule laser guns and such to fall under Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering). Mind you even if your character was the Galileo of his world you'd still need to make a check that the DM could set as high as they wanted.

[Thant]

I love this idea and I believe it is both hilarious and quite legal, rules-wise; call weapon power description says among other things:


You call a weapon “from thin air” into your waiting hand (actually, it is a real weapon hailing from another location in space and time).

This covers any plane of existence in any time and that translates to that ANY weapon is subject to your calling.


You don’t have to see or know of a weapon to call it—in fact, you can’t call a specifi c weapon; you just specify the kind (longsword, shortbow, warhammer, or some other).

This covers the 4th wall breaking. You don't even have to know that it is a futuristic weapon that you're calling, you can just formulate it into something like "I want the best ranged weapon a warrior can wield" and therefor get an anti-matter rifle.


If you call a projectile weapon, it comes with 3d6 nonmagical bolts, arrows, or sling bullets, as appropriate.

This covers the ammo, because appropriate ammo for the weapon in question are power cells (so no problem there; the only problem I see is that you will be very short on ammo unless you spend a day or two manifesting over and over)...

So, congratulations! You can now proceed into becoming the first Chrono Legionary in your realm :smallbiggrin:

[Fortuna]

Sorry, won't work. Yes, you can call it from anywhere. But your specification is arguable, because it doesn't fit with the examples, and your reading of the last quote is just wrong. It doesn't say 'or appropriate ammo', it says 'one of these three things, as appropriate'. None of those is appropriate, so you get nothing.

[Pentachoron]

This covers the 4th wall breaking. You don't even have to know that it is a futuristic weapon that you're calling, you can just formulate it into something like "I want the best ranged weapon a warrior can wield" and therefor get an anti-matter rifle.


Incorrect:


you just specify the kind (longsword, shortbow, warhammer, or some other).

"Best ranged weapon a warrior can weild" isn't a kind, (also you're getting into all sorts of Wish-esque proficiency limiting shenanigans by phrasing it as what a 'warrior' can weild.)

[druid91]

We've given you the RAW. Even if what you say is RAI, you're trying to use RAI in a discussion about a silly trick you want to pull using RAW. See the problem?

I find it amusing that I'm being accused of using RAI when I use What's right there in the text. while you fix on one word and expand from that. The whole argument that powercells are not an inherent part of the weapon is shaky at best.

I'm using what is right there. "The laser can be fired fifty times before the energy cell needs to be reloaded."

You hear reloaded and go off on how reloading is an action done with ammunition.

Had they used replaced it would have meant the exact same thing. The word reloaded does not explicitely mean ammunition.

[hewhosaysfish]

This covers any plane of existence in any time
Yes.

and that translates to that ANY weapon is subject to your calling.
No.
If a weapon never exists at any time in any place then it cannot be called. You seem to be assuming that, fare enough in the future, antimatter rifles will eventually be invented somewhere, whatever setting you are in. But that is a question of world-building, which falls under the DM's purview.
Maybe try finding a published campaign setting which states "The Royal Cavalry Regiment wield longswords and heavy shields. In 5000 years time they will use antimatter rifles but still ride horses" or something similar.




Sorry, won't work. Yes, you can call it from anywhere. But your specification is arguable, because it doesn't fit with the examples, and your reading of the last quote is just wrong. It doesn't say 'or appropriate ammo', it says 'one of these three things, as appropriate'. None of those is appropriate, so you get nothing.
I'd be inclined to give him some crossbow bolts to go with his antimatter rifle. :smallbiggrin:
Of the three choices, they seem to be the closest to being appropriate (because a rifle is kinda shaped like a crossbow).

[druid91]

Once you include time... it's pretty much impossible to deny that somewhere along the line someone will develop an antimatter rifle.

Especially if you go with the trousers of time model.

[JamesonCourage]

I'm arguing RAW you are arguing sense. they are incompatible.

Okie dokie.


RAW answer is Exotic weapon proficiency:(futuristic).

logically you know what it is you are proficient with.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. We're talking RAW, not sense. Just because you're proficient doesn't mean you know how to use it. Sure, that makes sense, but I don't believe you know how to use it. Let's look at Exotic Weapon Proficiency.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency [General]
Choose a type of exotic weapon. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat.

Prerequisite
Base attack bonus +1 (plus Str 13 for bastard sword or dwarven waraxe).

Benefit
You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.

Normal
A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Special
You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon. Proficiency with the bastard sword or the dwarven waraxe has an additional prerequisite of Str 13.

A fighter may select Exotic Weapon Proficiency as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Hmm. Looks like you don't take penalties with it, by RAW. Sure, the flavor text reads "you understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat," but that has absolutely no bearing on RAW.


knowledge:scifi?

I don't know if this exists, by RAW. It'd have to be allowed, and it might not be allowed by the DM. Even if the DM has no say in new Knowledges allowed (which is highly questionable), he is the one who decides DCs, by RAW. If he doesn't want you to know about it, you don't.


I find it amusing that I'm being accused of using RAI when I use What's right there in the text.

Well, as you can see, I disagree strongly with you. You aren't following RAW, you're following RAI. I'm sorry, but someone once told me that RAW and sense are incompatible. Truthfully, I'm not sure how credible they are, but I hope you get the point, at least.

[druid91]

Okie dokie.



Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. We're talking RAW, not sense. Just because you're proficient doesn't mean you know how to use it. Sure, that makes sense, but I don't believe you know how to use it. Let's look at Exotic Weapon Proficiency.



Hmm. Looks like you don't take penalties with it, by RAW. Sure, the flavor text reads "you understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat," but that has absolutely no bearing on RAW.



I don't know if this exists, by RAW. It'd have to be allowed, and it might not be allowed by the DM. Even if the DM has no say in new Knowledges allowed (which is highly questionable), he is the one who decides DCs, by RAW. If he doesn't want you to know about it, you don't.



Well, as you can see, I disagree strongly with you. You aren't following RAW, you're following RAI. I'm sorry, but someone once told me that RAW and sense are incompatible. Truthfully, I'm not sure how credible they are, but I hope you get the point, at least.

You know... this was awesome. Even if I'm the one being smacked down with my own words this is still impressive.

Though you have to admit when RAW has things like drowning healing you....

Also flavor text is an inherent part of RAW. So lets tally up your victory. You took out knowledge scifi. which was a half hearted attempt anyway.

So still Exotic weapons proficiency futuristic gets me knowledge of how to use it.

[FMArthur]

Too bad the guns might not exist or ever exist at the DM's discretion, and the guns don't exist by default (ie explicitly require the DM to say that they do). You can argue as much as you like with your DM that such weapons are inevitable in time, and he is fully within his right to tell you that that's simply not true. Nothing in the rules supports that being true, not even RAI.

[JamesonCourage]

You know... this was awesome. Even if I'm the one being smacked down with my own words this is still impressive.
:smallbiggrin:

[druid91]

Too bad the guns might not exist or ever exist at the DM's discretion, and the guns don't exist by default (ie explicitly require the DM to say that they do). You can argue as much as you like with your DM that such weapons are inevitable in time, and he is fully within his right to tell you that that's simply not true. Nothing in the rules supports that being true, not even RAI.

Yes but then that is not a question of the combo's ability. It is in fact a question of your own personal ability to fast talk the dm.

for example. "The way I see it either there are infinite alternatives and as such countless alternate timelines. Or there is but one and everything is preordained making it pointless that we actually fight the monsters. if they were meant to die time would kill them and if they weren't then that means we'd lose. But if it's the first then all possibilities must be accounted for. Thus somewhere out there in space-time someone has a laser. and I'm calling it to me."

[The Rose Dragon]

Personally, I think it is a cool idea and might have allowed it as a one-off stunt.

But if you try to abuse that, I would have removed wherever those weapons are coming from out of existence.

[druid91]

As a DM I'd do much the same. Let them use it once for the sheer audacity of it. then inform them they broke time. You won't be strong enough to do it again until you reach higher levels. and it will cost you more than one powerpoint.

Then wait until 3d6 damage isn't so broken.

[The Rose Dragon]

3d6 is damage is never so broken. Especially since you don't add Strength to it. It's just the weapons may not fit in with the setting my players are forcing me to play in.

[druid91]

No but say for example this works. take hidden talent on a first level wizard. power call weapon. His survivability just shot up.

Especially if he picks up the proficency.

meh I'm always slightly loose with the setting. I try to fit anything interesting in.

[Thant]

Sorry, won't work. Yes, you can call it from anywhere. But your specification is arguable, because it doesn't fit with the examples, and your reading of the last quote is just wrong. It doesn't say 'or appropriate ammo', it says 'one of these three things, as appropriate'. None of those is appropriate, so you get nothing.


Incorrect:

"Best ranged weapon a warrior can weild" isn't a kind, (also you're getting into all sorts of Wish-esque proficiency limiting shenanigans by phrasing it as what a 'warrior' can weild.)

I agree for the ammo part, and that the specification is stretched thin but that was just a quick example. I think it would be viable to get a certain kind of energy weapon, maybe not antimatter rifle, but something advanced must exist; because if you're already going with the multiverse and infinite timelines idea, there's Sigil and Spelljammer (or if you are not totally averted by it, there's Dragonstar).

IIRC Godsmen were actually working on some sort of arcane partical weapon (although it was a size of a cannon) in Torment. And with Illithids you can get all sorts of weird arcane high-tech thingies, time given (and they have a lot of it).

So unless your DM says "No, dammit!", there's no reason why you couldn't acquire one (even more if you had exotic weapon prof. (futuristic) :smallwink:

[Tael]

If you can actually think of one legitimate reason as to why any character in Faerun or Greyhawk would have any knowledge of weapons that don't exist in their universe, I'd let you do it. But you don't.

For this combo to work, we must assume that there is no DM. If there is no DM we need to choose a setting. In any setting except Planescape there is absolutely no indication of any sort of future-tech. And in Planescape there are no actual rules for future tech, you're just extrapolating.

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

[druid91]

If you can actually think of one legitimate reason as to why any character in Faerun or Greyhawk would have any knowledge of weapons that don't exist in their universe, I'd let you do it. But you don't.

For this combo to work, we must assume that there is no DM. If there is no DM we need to choose a setting. In any setting except Planescape there is absolutely no indication of any sort of future-tech. And in Planescape there are no actual rules for future tech, you're just extrapolating.

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

A reason for knowing about something that doesn't exist? Alienist. Ask an Illithid. They are from the future you know. Commune with the far realms. get someone with cure insanity to be there on standby.

And oh my, no rules for future tech in planescape? Darn I guess.... Hey wait! Here they are. Right in the DMG. Like the red wizard of thay.:smallamused:

[Tael]

A reason for knowing about something that doesn't exist? Alienist. Ask an Illithid. They are from the future you know. Commune with the far realms. get someone with cure insanity to be there on standby.

Illithids don't have future-tech, and nothing says that they come from far enough in the future to know about it. Try again. (and even if you did, by the time you can safely come across that info, those weapons are worthless anyway.)
Same with Far Realms.



And oh my, no rules for future tech in planescape? Darn I guess.... Hey wait! Here they are. Right in the DMG. Like the red wizard of thay.:smallamused:
Yeah, I know about the DMG rules, but I'm talking about Planescape. Where in Planescape does it detail that those weapons exist?

[druid91]

By that logic where does it detail swords exist?


The illithids come from the end of time. They shattered the timestream sending them back in time when their interstellar empire crumbled due to attacks by an unstoppable foe.

[Thant]

Almost every dnd setting has some sort of magic and that means that higher level casters would eventually get their hands on planeshift, and that in turn confirms the existence of other planes of existence/alternate dimensions (aka settings). And future tech doesn't have to be limited to laser pistols and antimatter rifles; the thing is that only those two future weapons exist in DMG and are used as reference point because of that.

I like the idea and I think that other then power playing exploits it offers it could also prove quite interesting for a bit of awkward roleplaying, if DM allows it.

[druid91]

There is also expedition to barrier peaks.

The whole thing was full of lasers and such.

[Drowbane]

There is also expedition to barrier peaks.

The whole thing was full of lasers and such.

Barrier Peaks weapons were very dangerous to use. :p

I'd totally let Isaac Blackwater pull this sort of shenanigans... but other than that I'd probably just laugh at the player and say "nice try"

[druid91]

Barrier Peaks weapons were very dangerous to use. :p

I'd totally let Isaac Blackwater pull this sort of shenanigans... but other than that I'd probably just laugh at the player and say "nice try"

Why? His patented reality warping insanity? And his extended periods of time spent floating through the Far Realms with noone but an illithid for company?

Anyway aside from it's slight mechanical benefit. It could make for a rather interesting character.

[Fhaolan]

Once you include time... it's pretty much impossible to deny that somewhere along the line someone will develop an antimatter rifle.

Especially if you go with the trousers of time model.

Actually, it's pretty easy to deny. Because antimatter may not exist within the time/space continutity that the character is within.

It's the same as trying to summon a cesium elemental, when cesium is not an element as defined within the game world.

If antimatter does not exist, or operates under a different paradyne within the multiverse in question, then nobody at any point in the timeline will invent an antimatter rifle because it won't work in that multiverse in question.

If you draw from outside of the multiverse, and pull an antimatter rifle from there, there is an excelent chance that it will simply not operate in this one because its basis of operation is incompatable with the rules of the universe at large. Heck it might even explode as soon as it arrives, due to incompatable physical laws.


So, the DM still gets to say whether or not it's possible. Mind you, if he later pulls out an antimatter rifle during game and says it's from the Far Realms or some such nonsense, you can then call shenanigans on him for denying your previous request.