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Titanium Fox
2011-02-24, 04:49 PM
I've got a party of 8 at 14th level right now; and their "main" foe that they are facing is an army of Yuan-Ti. However I seem to fail at making them a challenge, so I figured I'd poke the playground. Does anyone know of a place where I can find CR 17 - 19 or higher Yuan-Ti?

I did try class leveling and the things got wrecked round one of combat.

Geiger Counter
2011-02-24, 04:53 PM
Anathema from fiend folio
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50181.jpg

Amnestic
2011-02-24, 04:54 PM
Serpent Kingdoms is probably a good place to start. Off the top of my head there's a CR20/21 yuan-ti like creature, which I think was the starter race who created the Yuan-Ti.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-24, 04:58 PM
...Just use Mariliths that the Yuan-ti summon. They are a chaotic evil group with super high intellects, it makes sense. GPB FTW.

classy one
2011-02-24, 05:06 PM
Why not just add class levels on them? That would be the "easy" way to do it.

Essence_of_War
2011-02-24, 05:21 PM
I've got a party of 8 at 14th level right now; and their "main" foe that they are facing is an army of Yuan-Ti. However I seem to fail at making them a challenge, so I figured I'd poke the playground. Does anyone know of a place where I can find CR 17 - 19 or higher Yuan-Ti?

I did try class leveling and the things got wrecked round one of combat.

So regular Yuan-ti abominations are CR 8 right?

How high did you level them? I understand the rules say that an abomination with 6 class levels should be a good challenge, but that is absolutely false (with the possible exception of F/WB levels that make them even better in melee.

For casters/manifesters I would do something like add 6-10 HD, but have them cast at 13-15th CL. This is nonstandard, but if we go in assuming the roughly quadratic growth of spell , abominations with 6 sorcerer levels are a joke. Abominations with their regular hit die + 13-15 sorcerer levels (for example, could be scary). I would do similar tricks with anything that has class features.

For this contrast between run of the mill yuan-ti and these industrial strength ones to be effective/not break versimilitude, you'll need to sprinkle the latter in with larger groups of the former.

Someone else mentioned summoned demons, this can be a very effective strategy also.

Doug Lampert
2011-02-24, 05:26 PM
I've got a party of 8 at 14th level right now; and their "main" foe that they are facing is an army of Yuan-Ti. However I seem to fail at making them a challenge, so I figured I'd poke the playground. Does anyone know of a place where I can find CR 17 - 19 or higher Yuan-Ti?

I did try class leveling and the things got wrecked round one of combat.

Eh? What class, and more to the point what gear?

Class leveled means elite abilities, gear for an NPC of their (new and improved CR), rechose feats, and you can add two levels of cleric for each +1 to CR up to the point where you've doubled their HP, and then you can shift to two levels of druid or bard for an additional +1 to CR!

Note that Yaun-ti mental abilities are so high that you can put their "good" abilities from being elite anywhere and they're still perfectly functional.

IME class leveled foes in 3.5 were a TPK waiting to happen! The CR system grossly and massively systematically understates their power.

Doug Lampert
2011-02-24, 05:28 PM
So regular Yuan-ti abominations are CR 8 right?

How high did you level them? I understand the rules say that an abomination with 6 class levels should be a good challenge, but that is absolutely false (with the possible exception of F/WB levels that make them even better in melee.

For casters/manifesters I would do something like add 6-10 HD, but have them cast at 13-15th CL. This is nonstandard,

Caster classes are ALWAYS non-associated for monsters that don't cast as the class. You SHOULD be adding 12 class levels and 12 HD to get about +6 to CR! That's not non-standard, that's the monster manual as long as the base creature has 12 HD to start with.

Force
2011-02-24, 05:30 PM
Make their HD = initiator level and give them levels in Swordsage or Warblade.

No brains
2011-02-24, 05:44 PM
Serpent Kingdoms is probably a good place to start. Off the top of my head there's a CR20/21 yuan-ti like creature, which I think was the starter race who created the Yuan-Ti.

That sucker. Dare not speak its name or include it in your setting lest ye feel the reign of pun-pun...

Runestar
2011-02-24, 05:45 PM
IME class leveled foes in 3.5 were a TPK waiting to happen! The CR system grossly and massively systematically understates their power.

Funny, I thought the cr system grossly overestimates the power of class lvs, with the exception of non-associated class lvs and powerful monsters dipping into classes for a quick benefit. :smalltongue:

Thurbane
2011-02-24, 05:55 PM
Here's some ideas:

Half-farspawn Yuan-ti Abomination (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7071846&postcount=12) - CR 9
Pureblood Slayer (MM IV) - CR 10
Ssvaklor (MM III) - CR 10
Zstulkk SSarmn (SK) NPC - CR12
Seghulerak (EE) NPC - CR 18
Yuan-ti Anetema (FF) CR 18
Greater Ssvaklor (MM III) - CR 20
The Serpent Sybil (SK) NPC - CR21

...and while not exactly Yuan-ti, this guy is somewhat appropriate:

Nagahydra (SK) CR 18

Runestar
2011-02-25, 09:03 AM
The psionics handbook gives yuanti a massive powerboost by replacing their normally anemic list of SLAs with psi-like abilities which are actually useful in combat.

Looking that their stats, they have very generous mental stat bonuses, so I am thinking that classes/prcs such as blackguard or swordsage would benefit more than just lvs in fighter or rogue.

It is also interesting to note that MM4 is apparently quite generous when it comes to determining which classes are non-associated. For instance, barbarian is non-associated for halfbloods, as is marshal for abominations. You can really get some impressive stats out of this setup. :smallconfused:

Doug Lampert
2011-03-01, 09:29 PM
It is also interesting to note that MM4 is apparently quite generous when it comes to determining which classes are non-associated. For instance, barbarian is non-associated for halfbloods, as is marshal for abominations. You can really get some impressive stats out of this setup. :smallconfused:

The core rules are quite generous that way: (From the SRD)
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.
*****

So Wizard is unassociated to almost everything.

Bard is unassociated to Succubus, as is Blackguard.

Monk is unassociated for everyone. (Two level dip for +1 CR? +3 to all saves, +1 to BAB, two more HD with skills, feats, and ability improvements, Wis to AC, and you ALSO get elite abilities and gear.)

Cleric is unassociated with almost everything! 4 levels of cleric for elite abilities, +3 BAB, +3 Will, at least one feat, an ability improvement, two domains, and you can cast things like Divine favor, Shield of Faith, Bull's Strength, Bear's endurance, gear, and you can use the magic stick of out of combat healing. Put that on an outsider for only +2 CR and see what happens.

Really, claiming that some fighter types are unassociated with Barbarian is small potatoes. They should want Cleric ANYWAY, especially Yaun Ti who have high mental stats all arround. The moment you made fighter type monsters with high wisdom unassocated with Monk and Cleric you were admitting that the whole thing was basically "just give +2 class levels in something REALLY USEFUL for +1 CR and don't forget to give it NPC gear based on the new CR and elite abilities and rechosen feats while you're at it".

DougL

Thurbane
2011-03-01, 09:49 PM
I've always been a bit hazy on giving gear to monsters with class levels. Do you give them gear as a monster encounter of their CR, or NPC wealth by level using their ECL? If you use ECL, it can get astronomical, especially for creatures with high LA, like Vampires.

P.S. If you give Yuan-ti Cleric levels, you may want to consider the Yuan-ti Cultist PrC. You need 3rd level divine spells to get in, but it's thematically great for a Yuan-ti villain, and has some cool abilities (full 10/10 casting progression).

Serpentine
2011-03-01, 09:52 PM
I've always been a bit hazy on giving gear to monsters with class levels.Me too. I tend to build intelligent, "social" creatures (i.e. able to make purchases, etc) under the same rules as PCs, so I give them PC wealth, but that's certainly not in RAW...

Doug Lampert
2011-03-01, 09:53 PM
I've always been a bit hazy on giving gear to monsters with class levels. Do you give them gear as a monster encounter of their CR, or NPC wealth by level using their ECL? If you use ECL, it can get astronomical, especially for creatures with high LA, like Vampires.

CR, monsters use CR. It would be reasonable to use Class Level, but the DMG random NPCs rules make it clear it's CR if read carefully.

ECL is used ONLY for player characters. It's a serious break in the claim that 3.5 treats PCs and Monsters the same way. (And has major in game implications in the interaction with epic rules, a PC with LA is eligable for epic feats LONG before a monster of the same exact build would be.)


Me too. I tend to build intelligent, "social" creatures (i.e. able to make purchases, etc) under the same rules as PCs, so I give them PC wealth, but that's certainly not in RAW...

That's what the NPC wealth table is FOR! If you give them PC wealth then beating one becomes a massive payday for your adventurers.

Thurbane
2011-03-01, 10:00 PM
CR, monsters use CR. It would be reasonable to use Class Level, but the DMG random NPCs rules make it clear it's CR if read carefully.

ECL is used ONLY for player characters. It's a serious break in the claim that 3.5 treats PCs and Monsters the same way. (And has major in game implications in the interaction with epic rules, a PC with LA is eligable for epic feats LONG before a monster of the same exact build would be.)

That's what the NPC wealth table is FOR! If you give them PC wealth then beating one becomes a massive payday for your adventurers.
Now I'm more confused...

Only humanoids with no RHD get to use the NPC WBL table?

For example, an NPC Goblin Adept 6 uses the NPC WBL table, while a Worg Barbarian 4 uses the monster CR gold rules?

Doug Lampert
2011-03-01, 10:07 PM
Now I'm more confused...

Only humanoids with no RHD get to use the NPC WBL table?

For example, an NPC Goblin Adept 6 uses the NPC WBL table, while a Worg Barbarian 4 uses the monster CR gold rules?

Nope, the random NPC generator includes creatures that have RHD and are not simple humanoids (mindflayer for example). And it says they use wealth based on the NPC table and CR, note that the NPC table is PART of the rules for random NPCs. So the limits (if any) clearly AREN'T no RHD and humanoid.