Leap Attack

[HappyBlanket]

I'm having some trouble with the Leap Attack feat, and I was wondering if anybody could help me with a few details. In particular:


Leap Attack
Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.


Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

If I use Leap Attack during a charge (as is required), after moving on land for 20 feet, does the DC for Jump double?
That is to say, I don't know how to interpret the term "running start." Does it simply mean movement of 20 feet prior to the jump? Or does it mean using the full-round "Run" action over 20 feet? Or is it ambiguous as I think it is, and therefore best left to the interpretation of the DM?

I want to know how difficult a Leap Attack is to pull off, which is very much dependent on this. I'm playing a human Fighter with a speed of 30 ft, which during a charge becomes 60 ft.

[FishAreWet]

Just move 20ft before you jump.

[Keld Denar]

Its 20 feet prior to the jump. So, DC10 if you move 20' before hand (so, starting at least 30 feet away), or DC20 if you start from less distance than that away.

[HappyBlanket]

Fantastic.
Two more questions concerning the same character, that I believe I've forgotten to ask.



Combat Brute, Tactic 3: Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x 1-1/2, or x 3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.
Could I use Momentum Swing on the turn after Leap Attack?
A Leap Attack is a charge, so it does fulfill the 1st requirement, and the 2nd turn requirement is easy enough. That alone leads me to believe I certainly can use the charge of Leap Attack for Momentum Swing, but I'd like opinions on it anyway.

...Especially since my next question is whether or not I can use a Leap Attack as my Momentum Swing for a 9x Two Handed Weapon Power Attack bonus (whut). A Leap Attack uses the Power Attack feat, which the Momentum Swing requires. So, if my target tried to move at least 10 feet away from me (anyone who isn't melee), and I responded with a successful Leap Attack, would this be legal?

In my inexperienced opinion, it is. But 9x on anything just seems too absurd to be entirely acceptable.

[Keld Denar]

Leap Attack only works on the round you use it on. Momentum Swing only works on the round AFTER you charge.

If you had a legal target to charge the round after you charged someone the previous round, you would indeed stack the multipliers. Keep in mind, LA has been errataed to a 100% increase, rather than a doubling, since in D&D a doubling plus a doubling is a tripling.

Example, you Leap Attack target A in combat round 1. You apply Leap Attack bonuses to target A. You Leap Attack target B in combat round 2, you'd apply both LA and CB bonuses to your roll. So, 3:1 for CB and then double that to 6:1 due to Leap Attack.

[herrhauptmann]

And if you kill someone with your charging attack, your cleave attempt gets all the same modifiers as the charge.

Once you've got all of these, there's 2 things you need.
1)Feat: Shocktrooper (for heedless charge). So you can power attack to your hearts content, without losing your attack bonus, it just drops your AC.
2)A source of miss chances. I usually use a Smoking weapon (Lords of darkness). Often +1 smoking armor spikes.

[Saint GoH]

Here's something that came up in my group concerning Leap Attack.

You need to make a DC 10 Jump check to succeed on the Jump, however teh character in mind rolled a 23. According to the current DM, that means he Jumped 23 feet and missed the square he was charging too. Is that just a DM's call or is it in the rules that if you over succeed a jump check you "go too far"?

[Roland St. Jude]

Here's something that came up in my group concerning Leap Attack.

You need to make a DC 10 Jump check to succeed on the Jump, however teh character in mind rolled a 23. According to the current DM, that means he Jumped 23 feet and missed the square he was charging too. Is that just a DM's call or is it in the rules that if you over succeed a jump check you "go too far"?
The DC for the jump is the distance that you want to travel. If you succeed on that check, you succeed in jumping the attempted distance.

Also, in general, I really like Leap of the Heavens from PHBII for this kind of thing.

[HappyBlanket]

Okay, thanks a bunch. Looks like I've gotten a fair understanding of LA and CB;MS. And believe me, I'm very aware of Cleave. Forget the bonuses, a leaping cleave is just really cool.

Okay, finishing up:

I'm definitely considering Shock Trooper, but I'm worried about having the opportunity to take it. I plan on multiclassing to Battle Sorcerer somewhere around ninth level or so (for the roleplay aspect of it. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to optimize), which limits the bonus feats I get from Fighter. And Leap Attack, Combat Brute, and Fleet of Foot (ensures I get a 2nd charge) alone take up most of my feats until level six.
I might be able to get Shock Trooper at level eight, if I get Bullrush at level one. No smoking weapon though. I'd have enough trouble explaining how my hormone fueled 9-INT teenage fighter learned how to be a Shock Trooper, much less get the idea to use a smoking weapon.


I considered that issue with the over jump, but yeah, the distance doesn't rely on your roll. The roll just determines whether or not you succeed, so it's hit or miss.


Leap of the Heavens was another thing I looked at. Brilliantly direct way to solve my problems. Hell, with enough movement dedicated to the jump (which would be permitted by LotH), and enough modifiers, I could probably jump over most enemies with my charge (vertical distance = horizontal distance divided by four).
Unfortunately, the game is limited to the Core 3 and the Complete, especially since some of us (especially myself) are relatively new to d&d. The gm is willing to make an exception on a case-by-case basis, but even then I'm still limited to the number of feats I can have. I only have one more feat to select before I hit my limit until past level six (not that I can't pick IBR, ST, and LotH afterwards).

ANYWAY. One more question has spawned as a result of all this.

A) Lolhe'sthinksawallcanstopme
When charging, my character can move a maximum of 60 feet. A horizontal leap during this charge would permit me to jump 1/4 of my horizontal distance vertically at the midpoint of the jump. So, assuming I succeed on an incredibly difficult (but very possible with enough ranks in Jump and Leap of the Heavens) jump check, and also assuming that I distance myself appropriately... Would I be able to jump over a 15 feet tall wall while also Leap Attacking?
Logically (did I just call a 60/15 foot jump logical?), I should. But Leap Attack states that all rules for charging and jumping apply. Jump rules are fine (and they even let me overcome terrain), but charging prohibits me from moving into a square with any obstacles at all.

[herrhauptmann]

A) Lolhe'sthinksawallcanstopme
When charging, my character can move a maximum of 60 feet. A horizontal leap during this charge would permit me to jump 1/4 of my horizontal distance vertically at the midpoint of the jump. So, assuming I succeed on an incredibly difficult (but very possible with enough ranks in Jump and Leap of the Heavens) jump check, and also assuming that I distance myself appropriately... Would I be able to jump over a 15 feet tall wall while also Leap Attacking?
Logically (did I just call a 60/15 foot jump logical?), I should. But Leap Attack states that all rules for charging and jumping apply. Jump rules are fine (and they even let me overcome terrain), but charging prohibits me from moving into a square with any obstacles at all.

I'm not sure about the jump part, but to charge, you need a target at the start of your movement. Thus you need a line of sight to your target. If he's on the other of a stone wall, you can't charge him unless you have xray goggles or something. Even knowing for a fact that he's there, isn't enough by the rules.

As for 'being smart enough' for shocktrooper. There's no brains required for it. Just muscle memory and being brave enough to do it. And a certain amount of combat skill to pull it off. Now if your character never charged in his life, it might be more difficult rationalizing it.

So what magic equipment is your character getting? Are you intentionally getting him the most useless stuff because "he's dumb with 9 int"? He might have chosen 'smoking' because he saw how difficult it was to kill some puny wizard hiding in a fog cloud, and wanted something like that. Or, he likes it cuz "It looks cool." Dramatic wisps of smoke and a billowing cloak.

Also, have you checked out the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel? If your int is that low, you can't afford the points for many of them, but who knows.

[HappyBlanket]

Okay, so Leap Attacking over a wall isn't workable without Xray Glasses. Course, as much as I'd like to contribute to the Darwin Awards, it's probably not a good idea to jump where I can't see anyways.
Would I be able to jump over another character then? Or do other characters block LoS?


It's not about my character being too stupid for ST. I just figured that Shock Trooper was a representation of police force tactics, which my character has no reason to know about. Combat Brute, in comparison, sounds like the tactics of... Well, a brute. Something she'd pick up just swimmingly.
I could just get it regardless. Roleplaying might guide the character, sure, but it certainly won't bind her.

As for equipment: I hadn't even considered what to get. Smoking equipment, sure, but I figured I'd mostly pick things up at random (her starting equipment is fairly typical though. Masterwork weapon and armor, cold iron and alchemical silver short spears).

Besides, I didn't think 9 int was that dumb. Lower than average, certainly, and prone to... suboptimal decisions, but she won't be tossing herself out of windows, head-butting trees, or say, tossing herself over the walls of an enemy fortress, alone and unprotected, with a Jump check.

And I did consider Scoundrel. I considered Daredevil Athlete for a while, to help with Jump checks, but I figured I wouldn't be needing it.

[herrhauptmann]

Instead of thinking Shocktrooper=Police.

Think instead that shocktrooper=elite warriors on a medieval battlefield.
The squads that get called on to kill what no one else can kill. The sturmgrenadieres, assault engineers, Landsknecht with their zweihanders, danish huscarls, etc.

[RndmNumGen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that historically shock troopers were the heavily armored guys that could take just about anything and keep on coming, slow but surely. So yeah, that could fit in with a brute, though it's more toughness than raw strength.

[HappyBlanket]

I checked, and looks like you two are correct. Shocktroopers aren't police at all, it looks like they're infantry. :smalltongue: I was probably associating them with Statetroopers or something; crowd control types deployed during riots. The first maneuver seemed to fit my impression well enough.

In any case, that'll do. I'll add Shock Trooper to the list, and I'll probably get it... Ninth level? I'm full until level six, including the human bonus feat, the standard bonus feats, and the fighter bonus feats, so I won't be able to get Storm Trooper's prerequisite until level eight as a FBF.

[Sith_Happens]

Besides, I didn't think 9 int was that dumb. Lower than average, certainly, and prone to... suboptimal decisions, but she won't be tossing herself out of windows, head-butting trees, or say, tossing herself over the walls of an enemy fortress, alone and unprotected, with a Jump check.

Wait, are you saying that those are not perfectly legitimate tactics? I know someone who'd like to have a word with you:

http://weareawesomeness.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/pic-9.jpg?w=351&h=416

The Raikage NEVER uses doors.

[HappyBlanket]

Wait, are you saying that those are not perfectly legitimate tactics? I know someone who'd like to have a word with you:

http://weareawesomeness.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/pic-9.jpg?w=351&h=416

The Raikage NEVER uses doors.

Bah, I haven't read Naruto since Hinata got better from her 2nd pity death (how many years has it been?). I'll stick with my Welcome to the NHK, Haruhi, and FLCL, thank you.