Abominations vs. dragons (3.5)

[Adamaro]

So, somehow (not very surprisingly) things ended in cataclysm after we had our last lvl 20 campaign involving mainly wizards. Situation did turn out rather epic, since in aftermath, once green, lush Central Plane is now full of abominations (and far lesssignificant undead, living spells and pseudomonsters) and their weaker spawn.
The only semi-peaceful part of the land is now the barren and rather hot South, where dragons and scaly species live. Abominations, as they are, fight amongst themselves, but also like to spread their main principle (of fire, death, destruction, domination of air, time, etc) into other regions, meaning - the one remaining untouched part of mainland, The South.

So I was thinking ... what chances does an ancient dragon with help of say, two adult and five juvenile dragons has against Atropal? Or Infernal, Phane, maybe even Hecatoncheires?

[Stallion]

Depends on what type of dragons they are. For the most part, pretty much none whatsoever. Unless these things have class levels, too.

[Alleran]

I find it highly unlikely that the dragons would be able to hold out against any but the weaker abominations, and even then it would probably be a difficult fight.

[Adumbration]

Depends on how smart they are played and built. An ancient Gold dragon does cast as a 19th level sorcerer, which is a definite edge. As it is in MM, dragon will probably lose, but if you optimize the dragon (feats, spells, equipment) the dragon will win.

[Alleran]

Depends on how smart they are played and built. An ancient Gold dragon does cast as a 19th level sorcerer, which is a definite edge. As it is in MM, dragon will probably lose, but if you optimize the dragon (feats, spells, equipment) the dragon will win.

Ancient Golds cast as 15th level sorcerers. It's only Great Wyrm Golds that cast as 19th level.

Steel Dragons cast as 21st level sorcerers when they reach Great Wyrm status, though. I think Hex Dragons cast as 21st level sorcerers as well. Tome Dragons cast as 21st level when they reach Ancient status, then accelerate up to 23rd level as a Wyrm and 25th as a Great Wyrm.

EDIT: Of course, arcane power is less useful against something like an Infernal, thanks to that Learned Spell Immunity it has (hit by a spell once... then that spell from that spellcaster will never do anything to it ever again), and it can call up to four Balors or four Pit Fiends each day in the event that backup becomes necessary. And it has the boatloads of immunities that Abominations come with.

[Zaydos]

Color matters a lot. An ancient white dragon is a lot weaker than an ancient red dragon. An ancient red dragon... well it depends upon the build but an ancient red dragon has access to 7th level spells and the ability to spend 3 feats for Epic Spellcasting. Without the dragon going for cheese (which it totally could) I'd say atropal would win. Now a great wyrm red doesn't even have to touch cheese to have a fair chance (9th level spells from wizard and cleric lists among other things).

If the dragon has spells to protect against Con drain and Energy Drain I'd bet on the dragon (and a red dragon can select cleric spells known) against an atropal.

An ancient dragon, though, will without heavy optimization and being customized for a specific abomination be very unlikely to win. A great wyrm... I wouldn't be surprised if a single one could beat any except a hecatoncheires and maybe even one of them.

[Adumbration]

Ancient Golds cast as 15th level sorcerers. It's only Great Wyrm Golds that cast as 19th level.



Just ancient? Okay, my bad, I just figured you wouldn't pit less than an oldest age category against abominations. Unless the dragon is literally wearing his whole hoard, I'm going to have to give this to the atropal.

[CycloneJoker]

If PrCs and such from the Draconomicon, definitely. Especially since Young Adults and Adults can cast at 17 and 21, respectively. If we're allowed to go higher, the abominations don't have a chance. Hello, epic casting at Mature Adult!

[AtomicKitKat]

This is where Hidecarved Dragon is at an advantage. The capstone gives them immunities comparable to any of the Abominations(Quasi-Deity).:smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

This is where Hidecarved Dragon is at an advantage. The capstone gives them immunities comparable to any of the Abominations(Quasi-Deity).:smallbiggrin:
And the capstone of the Dragon Ascendant class actually gives Divine Rank.

[CycloneJoker]

And the capstone of the Dragon Ascendant class actually gives Divine Rank.

Really? I don't see it.

[vikingofdoom]

For more powerful dragons, Dragon magazine #359 has Time dragons, which are epic dragons. At the age categories you presented they have:
Ancient: 89 HD, CL 31, SR 85, CR 76, a breath weapon that reduces Con by 10 points (this is not damage or drain), DR 20/epic, 20/-, no save slow aura out to 100 ft, time stop every 1d4 rounds, and a bunch of other stuff.

Would this be enough to kill an abomination?

[Keld Denar]

Yay, another example of a mechanic that the writers had no freakin clue how the game works. There is no point in having DR 20/Epic AND 20/-. DR doesn't stack, you use the highest value as appropriate. Thus, 20/- is always what you'd use. Example: If something had DR 10/Magic, and it picked up one of those shirts in the MIC that gives it DR 3/Lawful, then against non-magical weapons it would ignore the first 10 damage per hit (the lawful part is overwritten because its lower). Against magical weapons it would ignore the first 3 damage per hit. Against magical lawful weapons, it wouldn't ignore any damage.

Since nothing can breach DR /-, then 20/- applies to ALL weapon attacks, and there is no tiering. If they wanted to do it that way, the proper nomenclature would be DR 40/Epic and DR 20/-. That way, it ignores the first 40 points of damage per hit from non-epic weapons and the first 20 damage from all weapons.

I mean, its bad enough that the Atropal manages to have Regen without a Con score (bad bad bad bad bad!), but this? Wow, seriously...

[Alleran]

Really? I don't see it.
This one:

Immortality (Ex): A 12th-level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity, and can no longer die from natural causes.
Quasi-deities have DvR 0 by definition.

Of course, the ascendant already has pretty much all the benefits of DvR 0 by the time it reaches 12th level anyway, but it does become an official quasi-deity regardless.

I have to say that the hidecarved capstone seems a bit less impressive by comparison. It's just a bump of the NA bonus to +6 (from the +4 of the 8th level in the class) and an extra energy immunity. DR that can only be overcome by epic chaotic weapons at the 11th level isn't too bad, though.

[AtomicKitKat]

My bad. For some reason, I was thinking Hide-carved was the one that turned you into a Quasi-Deity. Yeah, I meant Dragon Ascendant.

[Zaranthan]

Yay, another example of a mechanic that the writers had no freakin clue how the game works.

The magazines are useless for crunch. Great resources for ideas and inspiration, but you just can't take any of the numbers as-is.

[Skaven]

Dragons have spells, many of them would also have class levels. They have access to epic cheese. The dragons are also geniuses. They would easily be able to resist.

[Stallion]

Dragons have spells, many of them would also have class levels. They have access to epic cheese. The dragons are also geniuses. They would easily be able to resist.

Abominations are quasi-deities. Many of them have access to some ridiculous abilities, and ALL of them have ridiculous defenses, including SR, immunities out the wazoo, and all of them START as CR 20+. ALL of them have stats for advancement, and it'd be kinda silly to conclude that some of the most powerful entities in existence wouldn't survive long enough to grow. There's also nothing keeping the smarter abominations, such as the Phane, the Infernal, Atropal, or even the Anaxim, from taking class levels. While dragons may have access to epic cheese, abominations ARE epic cheese to begin with, and can access most of the same epic cheese a dragon can.

[Zaydos]

Abominations are quasi-deities. Many of them have access to some ridiculous abilities, and ALL of them have ridiculous defenses, including SR, immunities out the wazoo, and all of them START as CR 20+. ALL of them have stats for advancement, and it'd be kinda silly to conclude that some of the most powerful entities in existence wouldn't survive long enough to grow. There's also nothing keeping the smarter abominations, such as the Phane, the Infernal, Atropal, or even the Anaxim, from taking class levels. While dragons may have access to epic cheese, abominations ARE epic cheese to begin with, and can access most of the same epic cheese a dragon can.

No. Dragons have access to Epic Spellcasting (it only costs an ancient dragon 3 feats to get it). Abominations do not. Dragons can break epic spellcasting as easily as a sorcerer can. A dragon built to kill an atropal can be made immune to all of its abilities (Death Ward + Con damage immunity + Cold immunity; so three of its spells) and can deal enough damage to overcome DR each round (15 hah) and ignores its regeneration (because they are a somehow living weapon, again hah). It will take it time but it will win.

Other abominations are harder (atropal is probably the easiest for it) but dragons have access to way more cheese than abominations if for no other reasons than 15th level sorcerers with access to 12 feats, any number of which can be epic, can be very cheesy.

Edit: I must make a note that I do not actually like the idea of indulging in such cheese (I ban epic spellcasting, even though pretty much only dragons could get it in my games, and I refuse to give dragons more epic feats than they'd gain after 20 HD, and my biggest cheese is usually maximized and quickened breath). I am just noting that it is there.

[bbugg]

I feel like the question isn't who would win a fight between a single dragon and an abomination, but in a prolonged war between a world with the dragons who live there and an invading force of abominations, would there be a clear winner, or would it be down to numbers/strategy/outside influences?

I'm no crunch expert, but by simple gut feeling, I'd give it to the dragons. The world would end up pretty scorched and it might take a while (is 100yrs too few?), but I'd give it to them in the end.

[CycloneJoker]

I feel like the question isn't who would win a fight between a single dragon and an abomination, but in a prolonged war between a world with the dragons who live there and an invading force of abominations, would there be a clear winner, or would it be down to numbers/strategy/outside influences?

I'm no crunch expert, but by simple gut feeling, I'd give it to the dragons. The world would end up pretty scorched and it might take a while (is 100yrs too few?), but I'd give it to them in the end.

EPIC MAGIC. Dragons win in nothing flat.

[sreservoir]

EPIC MAGIC. Dragons win in nothing flat.

that depends, they might have used casting time as a mitigation factor.

[CycloneJoker]

that depends, they might have used casting time as a mitigation factor.

They have Intelligence high. They'd just gate in a lot of Solars.

[Zaydos]

They have Intelligence high. They'd just gate in a lot of Solars.

They don't have Gate... unless there's an arcane equivalent to the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat that I don't know about (they can get the ability to cast 10th level spells, but ancient dragon's only cast at 15th, or 17th level if they use loredrake). Actually if Dragon Magazine is allowed (it's first party) they can get 9th level spells. Insane Lore Drakes ftw.

Never mind I just checked Extra Spell Known. It uses "level lower than the one you can currently cast" not currently know. That means for the mere cost of 5 of their 12 feats they can cast Gate and Epic Spells.

[sreservoir]

They don't have Gate... unless there's an arcane equivalent to the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat that I don't know about (they can get the ability to cast 10th level spells, but ancient dragon's only cast at 15th, or 17th level if they use loredrake). Actually if Dragon Magazine is allowed (it's first party) they can get 9th level spells. Insane Lore Drakes ftw.

Never mind I just checked Extra Spell Known. It uses "level lower than the one you can currently cast" not currently know. That means for the mere cost of 5 of their 12 feats they can cast Gate and Epic Spells.

they cast as sorcs. gate is sor/wiz 9.

[Stallion]

No. Dragons have access to Epic Spellcasting (it only costs an ancient dragon 3 feats to get it). Abominations do not. Dragons can break epic spellcasting as easily as a sorcerer can. A dragon built to kill an atropal can be made immune to all of its abilities (Death Ward + Con damage immunity + Cold immunity; so three of its spells) and can deal enough damage to overcome DR each round (15 hah) and ignores its regeneration (because they are a somehow living weapon, again hah). It will take it time but it will win.

Other abominations are harder (atropal is probably the easiest for it) but dragons have access to way more cheese than abominations if for no other reasons than 15th level sorcerers with access to 12 feats, any number of which can be epic, can be very cheesy.

Edit: I must make a note that I do not actually like the idea of indulging in such cheese (I ban epic spellcasting, even though pretty much only dragons could get it in my games, and I refuse to give dragons more epic feats than they'd gain after 20 HD, and my biggest cheese is usually maximized and quickened breath). I am just noting that it is there.


At which the Phanes simply go back in time and catch ALL of them unawares. Hell, the Phanes could launch multiple attacks in multiple times, just to insure victory, all the while pulling Time Duplicates of the dragons with Epic Spellcasting. Or 25 HD wizards, all serving them loyally. Or the Dream Larva simply launch Nightmares every round of every day from a distance until every dragon that has access to Epic Spells simply has no spells, or til they are so exhausted that they simply can't cast them. Hell, hit and run tactics by Infernals could delay any Epic Spellcasting simply because one bite drains the highest level spell a spellcasters got and so many Epic Spells worth mentioning happen to be ritual spells that take quite a while to prepare. Epic Spellcasting is NOT, in this case, an instant win just because dragons happen to be intelligent and you're imagining them being played intelligently. Don't forget that the abominations happen to be pretty damn intelligent as well.

[sreservoir]

At which the Phanes simply go back in time and catch ALL of them unawares. Hell, the Phanes could launch multiple attacks in multiple times, just to insure victory, all the while pulling Time Duplicates of the dragons with Epic Spellcasting. Or 25 HD wizards, all serving them loyally. Or the Dream Larva simply launch Nightmares every round of every day from a distance until every dragon that has access to Epic Spells simply has no spells, or til they are so exhausted that they simply can't cast them. Hell, hit and run tactics by Infernals could delay any Epic Spellcasting simply because one bite drains the highest level spell a spellcasters got and so many Epic Spells worth mentioning happen to be ritual spells that take quite a while to prepare. Epic Spellcasting is NOT, in this case, an instant win just because dragons happen to be intelligent and you're imagining them being played intelligently. Don't forget that the abominations happen to be pretty damn intelligent as well.

you're dealing with a caster. how are you going to even find them?

[Stallion]

you're dealing with a caster. how are you going to even find them?

By summoning my own.

[Zaydos]

they cast as sorcs. gate is sor/wiz 9.

Yes. I know. Hence if Dragon Magazine is allowed and they can have the draconic psychosis that makes them cast as Wizards and Lore Drake to cast as a 17th level wizard. And then the never mind because I forgot how Improved Spell Capacity works.

You can still get Gate on them without Dragon Magazine it's just a little more complicated than I thought. It requires Lore Drake (cast as a 17th level sorcerer), Versatile Spellcasting (use two 8th level slots for a 9th), Improved Spell Capacity (access to 10th level spells, bam gouda), and then Extra Spell Known (because you can cast 10th level spells and it's only 9th). Now as a DM I'm almost doubling over in disgust that I'm actually figuring out how to do this, but we're talking half-grown babies against abominations.

Yes Ancient dragons are half-grown babies.


At which the Phanes simply go back in time and catch ALL of them unawares. Hell, the Phanes could launch multiple attacks in multiple times, just to insure victory, all the while pulling Time Duplicates of the dragons with Epic Spellcasting. Or 25 HD wizards, all serving them loyally. Or the Dream Larva simply launch Nightmares every round of every day from a distance until every dragon that has access to Epic Spells simply has no spells, or til they are so exhausted that they simply can't cast them. Hell, hit and run tactics by Infernals could delay any Epic Spellcasting simply because one bite drains the highest level spell a spellcasters got and so many Epic Spells worth mentioning happen to be ritual spells that take quite a while to prepare. Epic Spellcasting is NOT, in this case, an instant win just because dragons happen to be intelligent and you're imagining them being played intelligently. Don't forget that the abominations happen to be pretty damn intelligent as well.

Phane's time regression takes 4 rounds and sends you back to the beginning of the 1st round that you spent using it. Phaen's time duplicate requires them to be fighting an epic wizard to begin with. Infernals have to rely on scrying to find the dragons and that can be blocked easily. The Dream Larvae are the most difficult for the dragons but first must gain some knowledge of the specific dragon, and have no means to do so (no divination) and even without that dragons can make the Will save (DC 28 so a little tough) or use Mind Blank (Lore Drake gives 8th level casting). Also the only long part about Epic Casting is Chain Gating Solars.

[Adamaro]

Tnx for all the replyes ... I have been away for a while and forgot that epic spellcasting could get in the game. How about if we do not involve epic spellcasting on dragons's side? Let's in fact say that core is all that is allowed in this case, for the sake of discussion.