3.5 vs 4e Phbs

[Tyndmyr]

So...I looked up on amazon, and the 3.5 phb (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Version-Dungeon-Roleplaying/dp/0786928867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298649410&sr=8-1) is running $77 new and $32 used.

In contrast, the 4e phb (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Heinsoo/dp/0786948671) is running $16 and $14 respectively. It's also ranked much lower, which means a lot less of them are being sold.

For reference, 2e is between the two.

Now, I'm sure there's great edition war fodder in there, but more importantly, what does this bode for the future of D&D? Are less people buying the books now? Is D&D as a brand in decline, and what does this mean for the future of RPGs?

Edit: For those interested, I've looked at this in the past as well. It seems to be a fairly consistant trend of significantly more 3.5 phbs being sold than 4e. I don't know exactly how to measure all the books sold by both, across all mediums...but Amazon seems fairly major, and they give me actual numbers to work with.

[randomhero00]

Well isn't 3.5 no longer in production? So they're rare. Of course they'll be expensive. Those "new" ones you saw just mean they haven't been used. Someone bought em awhile ago and saved em. As far as I know 3.5 is discontinued.

[Tyndmyr]

That doesn't correlate though. Not all out-of print books are high in price. For instance, the 2nd ed books are not a great deal more expensive than 4e, even for the new ones. And you know there can't be all that many new 2nd ed books out there.

[Amnestic]

That doesn't correlate though. Not all out-of print books are high in price. For instance, the 2nd ed books are not a great deal more expensive than 4e, even for the new ones. And you know there can't be all that many new 2nd ed books out there.

That assumes 2nd and 3.x books have the same demand; I'd be willing to wager 3.x is a lot more popular and sought after than 2nd is.

[RTGoodman]

Not to mention there are MANY more player option "core" books for 4E than the PHB. You don't even really need the first PHB to play, as long as you have the Red Box, Rules Compendium, and/or Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (or Fallen Lands).

[randomhero00]

That assumes 2nd and 3.x books have the same demand; I'd be willing to wager 3.x is a lot more popular and sought after than 2nd is.

Exactly. When people think of DnD they think of 3.x for a reason.

[Fhaolan]

Not sure this is even a relevant statistic, to be honest.

For example, a mint copy of the last printing of the AD&D PHB is worth about $6. Mint copy of the *first* printing is worth about $175.

Basic set runs from $10 to $100, depending on the printing, and the original 'white/woodgrain box' D&D boxed set runs from $150 to $5,000, depending on the printing.

[Kurald Galain]

That's probably just a matter of supply and demand.

4E books are in high supply, because they're still being produced and sold, hence the lower price.

3E books are in high demand compared to 2E, because 3E has had more players overall, hence the higher price.

[Reverent-One]

Well, the 3.5 PHB is out of print and 3.5 still has a large following (as evidenced by this site), so that's obviously going to drive up the cost. As for the rankings, you also need to take into account that the 4e Red Box, Rules Compendium, and Heroes of Forgotten Lands are far above both of them. Given that the Essentials was designed to be the new entry point for new players, this really isn't that surprising, though it does mean that the 4e PHB I is no longer the must buy starter book. On top of that you have the 4e players that simply don't buy books, but join DDi instead.

So this all really doesn't tell us to much about D&D as a whole.

[Tyndmyr]

Not to mention there are MANY more player option "core" books for 4E than the PHB. You don't even really need the first PHB to play, as long as you have the Red Box, Rules Compendium, and/or Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (or Fallen Lands).

The same can be said of 3.5. I can break out a brand new game for Eberron using just it's setting book, or faerun with it's books. There's a rules compendium for 3.5 as well.

But we can't compare every book across every edition, because they don't all match up neatly. That gets us messy stats.

I would not be surprised if 3.5 is in fact a lot more popular than 2e. I mean, I own a good bit of 2e stuff myself, but it's rare to see actual games of it recruiting. It seems a reasonable deduction. However, the explanation of "it's out of print, so it's rare" does not seem a reasonable explanation for why something has a larger sales volume. Rare and volume do not match up.

FHaolan, the "absolute first thing" is a collectors item, yes. I'd use the more normal price for general purposes of making conclusions about the game. For the same reason, using the black leather-bound 3.5 phb prices would be horribly skewed(those guys are expensive).

Rev, New items always surge in popularity. That's normal. Whatever the latest books are should be most popular for a bit, as that's what people are after. What's more interesting is if that sticks. I don't think non-book buyers are a huge problem. For 3.5, you could simply use the SRD. In fact, because the 4e requires a subscription, I would place the SRD as even more accessible.

[valadil]

Not to sound like a WotC shill, but I think this is indicative of the success of DDI and the Character Builder. People are sticking with electronic D&D materials instead of using dead tree edition.

[Reverent-One]

Rev, New items always surge in popularity. That's normal. Whatever the latest books are should be most popular for a bit, as that's what people are after. What's more interesting is if that sticks.

In which case it's too early to make any judgements, as we'll need to wait and see.


I don't think non-book buyers are a huge problem. For 3.5, you could simply use the SRD. In fact, because the 4e requires a subscription, I would place the SRD as even more accessible.

Except that the SRD only provides the material from the PHB and a few other random books, meanwhile DDi gives access to the player material for every 4e book, the character builder, and monster builder. It means that whereas a 3.5 player will probably eventually want to buy other books for more options, you can be a 4e player that doesn't own any book, but has as many options for character building as someone who owns every book.

[Tyndmyr]

IExcept that the SRD only provides the material from the PHB and a few other random books, meanwhile DDi gives access to the player material for every 4e book, the character builder, and monster builder.

Logically, that would account for a significant difference in non-core books sold for each system, if that exists(I don't have total sales numbers), but it shouldn't account for differences in phb numbers. The PHB is accessible online for both systems.

I'll grant that the character builder for 4e is more complete than the abortive 3.5 attempt, but I don't think character builders are really a book replacement for most people.

[Reverent-One]

Logically, that would account for a significant difference in non-core books sold for each system, if that exists(I don't have total sales numbers), but it shouldn't account for differences in phb numbers. The PHB is accessible online for both systems.

And if you're trying to compare the "PHB I" sales between 3.5 and 4e, you should be comparing sales between the 3.5 PHB and the 4e PHB I, Rules Compedium, and Heroes of Forgotten Lands, since for 4e, if you're just getting in, it's not a matter of one book that's the normal starting point, but your choice of starting points out of several options.


I'll grant that the character builder for 4e is more complete than the abortive 3.5 attempt, but I don't think character builders are really a book replacement for most people.

Many 4e players would disagree with you.

[Half-Orc Rage]

2nd edition came out in what, 1989? I would think the majority of people would have either stopped playing or moved on to another system since then. Honestly, 2nd was the latest shine on what were close to the same rules since the 70s, and didn't really take advantage of a lot of the more consistent, logical, and intuitive mechanics in rpgs that came out in the 80s. Not saying it wasn't playable or fun but I certainly wouldn't go back.

3rd came out in 2000, 3.5 came out in 2003. It was a big leap forward mechanically from 2nd edition and it made a lot more sense while still feeling like D&D. I remember d20 was very popular when it came out and most game companies switched from making whatever games they were making (probably White Wolf style games) to either D&D supplements or d20 games.

When 4th edition came out in 2008 I don't know that there demand for a new edition the way there was before. When they marketed 3rd, it was like "We changed this, we fixed that, you can play this," and when they marketed 4th it was "You can play online with people" which as far as I know you still can't do. I got the core 4e books on Amazon for that reason and was disappointed that I couldn't make a lot of the character concepts I took for granted and a lot of the other common complaints I heard.

Also, as has been said, when I buy 3rd edition books I really have nowhere to go but Amazon. If I wanted 4th edition there's a lot of options. A more interesting comparison would be 4th vs Pathfinder.

[Fhaolan]

FHaolan, the "absolute first thing" is a collectors item, yes. I'd use the more normal price for general purposes of making conclusions about the game. For the same reason, using the black leather-bound 3.5 phb prices would be horribly skewed(those guys are expensive).

Yeah, I understand. My point was that it's difficult to compare across editions, unless you state all the assumptions.

Another example, the SRD doesn't cover leveling or other necessary mechanics, so the 3.x PHB is still necessary for at least one person per gaming group to own. There really isn't many other ways to get those rules, unless you are willing to try to reverse engineer the mechanics from other d20 resources.

I am told, however, that there are multiple avenues to get the rules from the 4ed PHB without owning them. DDI, Red Box, etc.

[Disclaimer: I'm not 100% confident of my 4ed info because I don't have any 4ed resources myself. My gaming groups all migrated from 3.0 D&D to GURPS or other systems as they felt that their playstyles were better suited by different mechanics.]

EDIT: I forgot about the Rule Compendium as an alternative entry to 3.5, good point.

[Tyndmyr]

And if you're trying to compare the "PHB I" sales between 3.5 and 4e, you should be comparing sales between the 3.5 PHB and the 4e PHB I, Rules Compedium, and Heroes of Forgotten Lands, since for 4e, if you're just getting in, it's not a matter of one book that's the normal starting point, but your choice of starting points out of several options.

Cmon, you can't possibly throw in one system's Rules Compendium without throwing in the other.

For the record, 3.5 RC sells for $89 new, $30 used, ranked Rank: #154,734.

4e RC sells for under $13 new or used, ranked #4,678. High volume, low price.

I think this comparison is a better indicator of a rarity gap between the two than the straight phb comparison.


Many 4e players would disagree with you.

Everyone I know who plays 4e has books. Many of them *also* are great fans of the character builder, though. I'm aware of the crowd that doesn't have a lot of cash, and makes do with the minimum...they're certainly there, but they've always been with us.


When 4th edition came out in 2008 I don't know that there demand for a new edition the way there was before. When they marketed 3rd, it was like "We changed this, we fixed that, you can play this," and when they marketed 4th it was "You can play online with people" which as far as I know you still can't do.

I do remember seeing an absolutely fantastic game table demonstration by microsoft and wanting one quite badly. I also *love* the idea of a fantastic tool for online gaming. Sure, pbp and gametable exist, but they are really more of an indication of user creativity and desire to play than they are products.

I could see the marketing gap hurting them. Dunno if they're gonna actually do the online gaming app, but while it's complex...magic the gathering has games. They are popular and rake in giant piles of money(they were lauded in the last quarters reports. D&D was not.) I see potential there.


Also, as has been said, when I buy 3rd edition books I really have nowhere to go but Amazon. If I wanted 4th edition there's a lot of options. A more interesting comparison would be 4th vs Pathfinder.

Ooh, good call.

New $32, Used $30 Ranked #1,471. I'd hesitate to extrapolate too much from the price, since it's really like a combo of phb and dmg, but the volume is quite significant, decimating all the others. Very interesting indeed.

[Reverent-One]

Cmon, you can't possibly throw in one system's Rules Compendium without throwing in the other.

Sure I can, when any 4e players starting off with the Essentials line have to buy the Rules Compedium to get basic combat rules and the like, since the Essential's players books don't include that info. A 4e group coming in now has a couple options for where to start, they can buy the PHB I, or they can buy the Rules Compedium + either Heroes of Fallen Lands or Heroes of Forgetten Kingdoms, and with either route they may have played their first game with the Red Box. So the combo of 4e RC and one of the "Heroes of X" books is equivalent to a PHB I in content (as well as price, since the Essentials books are paperbacks).


For the record, 3.5 RC sells for $89 new, $30 used, ranked Rank: #154,734.

4e RC sells for under $13 new or used, ranked #4,678. High volume, low price.

I think this comparison is a better indicator of a rarity gap between the two than the straight phb comparison.

I'm sure the 3.5 RC is rarer. The question is, so what?

[Tyndmyr]

There's a bunch of ways to play 3.5 too, and they certainly don't all require purchasing the phb. Jumping into any setting books gets you what you need. Rules compendium + any books involving base classes(like say, the completes. A rough parallel to essentials might be drawn) is legit. SRD.

The interesting part is to look at how things are changing and draw conclusions about the future. Essentially saying "it's complicated. So what?" isn't really an interesting deduction.

Determining the relative viability of different entry points, and theorizing as to what this means for future RPGs is slightly more interesting. Is it a good idea and/or practical to take a multiple entry point approach? Is the "core rulebook" idea basically being phased out?

[Gamer Girl]

Going by stores in my area (Ohio)

1.There are a lot less game stores and even book stores then just a couple years ago. I used to be able to go to 40+ stores(game stores, comic book stores, book stores, used book stores, retail stores), now there are only about 10.

2.A lot of stores don't carry much 4E stuff. You will be lucky to find 3-4 4E books at Borders, hidden on the bottom of the role playing games shelf. When a new book comes out, they seem to buy five copies and never replace them if sold. The Border's Expresses at the malls carries no D&D stuff at all. They are, of course, happy to order stuff for you(but I hate dong that as I can't use my coupons).

3.D&D in general has lost popularity, at least in stores. For 3X the average store had at least two shelf's full of books and items and that was just Wizard D20 stuff, plus a special display or two. Plus the third party stuff. Plus at least a full book case of novels. Now D&D books are lucky to get even half of a single shelf. Books-a-Million had a full couple shelf's of the store for 4E when it came out, with books and dice and dice bags and such. Now Books-a-Million has the single half shelf of D&D hardcover books only.

4.The local game stores used to have the tables full of D&D gamers. With ten tables, you could have at least 8 D&D games going on every day of the weekend. Now it's lucky if they have one D&D game all weekend.

5.There is very little used 4E stuff. The shelf's at Half Price Books have no 4E stuff on them. Once a month a single book might show up, most likely the PH or DMG. For 3X you could go once a week and the whole shelf would be full of different books.

[Tyndmyr]

I've seen and heard similar. Game shops have never been a way to get rich, and the internet is taking a huge bite out of a lot of stores. I think it's hitting game shops especially hard. Im fortunate in that there's still a few game shops around me...but I live in an exceptionally well populated and fairly nerd-heavy area.

I have noticed a marked decrease in prominence in roleplaying game display space in general bookstores, too. 4e is literally the only game I see in there...granted, they can't carry everything the hobby stores do...but they don't even make an effort to cover the 4e books well. It used to be with Books a Million that you could wander it to a rather good variety. Now, it's about half the space, and the variety is shot.

[Yora]

The big problem of stores is that I can get the books delivered to my home for a lower price by amazon, and they always have everything in stock (at least the stuff that's still in print).
The only book I bought in a store in the past 8 years or so was one that was out of print and they happened to have on copy still on the shelf.

[Reverent-One]

The interesting part is to look at how things are changing and draw conclusions about the future. Essentially saying "it's complicated. So what?" isn't really an interesting deduction.

On the other hand, oversimplfying matters and ignoring variables that should be taken into account leads to false deductions, which I think are worse than boring ones.


Determining the relative viability of different entry points, and theorizing as to what this means for future RPGs is slightly more interesting. Is it a good idea and/or practical to take a multiple entry point approach? Is the "core rulebook" idea basically being phased out?

This is a more worthwhile train of thought though. I doubt one can really drop the "core rulebook" idea entirely without choosing to simply not care about your game's accessability to new players.

[valadil]

I don't think character builders are really a book replacement for most people.

No, but they're a book replacement for enough people that they will make a difference.

Also keep in mind that the book pricing may be set the way it is because of DDI's pricing, not because of its popularity. If you're just getting into D&D for the first time, would you rather spend $10 on a DDI account or $30+ on a book. Okay, maybe not you, Tyndmyr (referring to other thread where you mentioned buying all the toys you want because you have a full time job), but what about the high school kid with $20 to his name. The book has to be competitively priced or DDI will blow it away.

[Fhaolan]

Determining the relative viability of different entry points, and theorizing as to what this means for future RPGs is slightly more interesting. Is it a good idea and/or practical to take a multiple entry point approach? Is the "core rulebook" idea basically being phased out?

Ah, this is interesting. I can think of a few different ways of approaching this.

One, with traditional publishing having too many low-sales books is a real hit to the bottom line, thanks to the costs of printing multiple lines, storage, returns, etc., as discovered by TSR when they basically went bankrupt trying to juggle the insane volume of 2ed sourcebooks, as well as novels, comic books, etc. and sold themselves to WotC. With non-traditional publishing like subscriptions to online services this changes the balance a lot, but is it enough?

Two, are the different points of entry consistent enough to not dilute the market? Part of the problem I find with multiple points of entry is that the line editors need to *really pay attention* or you'll end up with the points of entry disagreeing enough that the playerbase gets frustrated trying to reconcile the differences. Then you end up with the publisher declaring one source to be definitive (Like DDi, or SRDs, or whatever), and then the purchasing of those other points of entry drop as word gets around. Heck, this problem exists within different printings of the same book, if the publisher incorporates errata in the different printings. Expanding to multiple points of entry will exponentially increase this issue.

[Darakonis]

I purchased my 3e books upon release. They were $30 a pop.

I purchased my 4e books upon release. They were $40 a pop.

Also, that 3e Amazon page just looks insane. $370 for the 3.5 PHB (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786928867/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&qid=1298649410&sr=8-1&condition=new)? Whaaa?

Just because it's available for sale at a given price doesn't mean people are buying it at a given price.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Tyndmyr]

That helps address price capping...along with the fact that since it's still being sold new, you wouldn't expect the used price to exceed the new price. That's all well and good.

It still doesn't address the volume issue. And amazon's ranking system does pull from actual sales rankings across other sources as well, so it's not just about Amazon sales as someone inferred.

The actual subscription thing is new...and I don't know how many dollars that pulls in for WOTC, but it's probably significant. Still, it's clear that actual book sales of 4e are doing fairly poorly if Pathfinder is killing them that badly. At least, the phb is. There's still getting a fairly decent surge off new books, but the pathfinder core book is doing ridiculously well even so.

Pathfinder has an SRD...but not a char builder so far as Im aware. Perhaps they should look into that.


Also, that 3e Amazon page just looks insane. $370 for the 3.5 PHB (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786928867/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&qid=1298649410&sr=8-1&condition=new)? Whaaa?

Just because it's available for sale at a given price doesn't mean people are buying it at a given price.

Use the lowest price point, not the highest one. There's always some crazy high listing. Essentially everyone buys from whoever sells the cheapest unless there's a shipping cost difference or something.

I suspect creation costs are still the majority of RPG book publishing costs. Those are relatively static regardless of paper or pdf. PDF definitely reduces the marginal cost, but people also tend to expect to pay less for a pdf than paper, so Im not sure how much more money that makes people.

[Fhaolan]

I suspect creation costs are still the majority of RPG book publishing costs. Those are relatively static regardless of paper or pdf. PDF definitely reduces the marginal cost, but people also tend to expect to pay less for a pdf than paper, so Im not sure how much more money that makes people.

Actually, the time I spent in the publishing industry (which admitedly was several years ago, and it wasn't a long stint), the primary cost *used* to be the actual printing, warehousing, and distribution. And the return of books unsold from the retailer was a *huge* hit, as the publisher had to pay the return shipping from the retailers.

Although I do have to admit that the editing and typesetting costs were deliberately being 'controlled' by the publisher. Leading to some rather unfortunate situations where many books were simply not being edited, and were being typeset over the weekend by one of the owner's otherwise unemployable cousins.

[Tyndmyr]

Ouch, that sounds like a sticky situation.

I imagine it varies at least in part by quantity. I know Troll Lord(castles and crusades) sells their paperback, their hardcover, and their pdf for within about $5 of each other for the reason that dev is the biggest cost for them. Now, while C&C is decently known, it's not on the same scale as PF or D&D, so I imagine it's a slightly different calculation. PF in particular has had some inexpensive pdfs in the past.

[MeeposFire]

I do not know what you guys are talking about in borders and Barnes and Noble. Both of those stores have more D&D stuff in them now, at least in the stores around NE Ohio that I frequent and the Southern Tier of NY. Different areas probably have different levels of popularity.

[tbarrie]

So...I looked up on amazon, and the 3.5 phb (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Version-Dungeon-Roleplaying/dp/0786928867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298649410&sr=8-1) is running $77 new and $32 used.

In contrast, the 4e phb (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Players-Handbook-Heinsoo/dp/0786948671) is running $16 and $14 respectively. It's also ranked much lower, which means a lot less of them are being sold.

I'm pretty sure the #1 ranked book is the highest-selling, not the lowest. The 4E PHB having a lower ranking number means that more of them are being sold.

And unless Amazon publishes actuals sales numbers and not just rankings, there's no basis for concluding that one sells "a lot" less.

[Tyndmyr]

The "a lot" was in reference to pathfinder, specifically. That's the dominating one. 4e and 3.5 are in the 10kish rankings. Pathfinder is 1,543. It's killing the other two horribly. The difference between the other two is fairly equal in comparison.

It's an exponential curve as well(had a book published coupla years back by a brother-in-law. Amazon was the most useful tracking metric for it.) In short, it's a lot more sales to go from 2k to 1k than to go from 3k to 2k.

[tbarrie]

The "a lot" was in reference to pathfinder, specifically.

Which you didn't mention until sixteen posts after the text I quoted, in a tone that made it clear that you hadn't considered looking at it before then.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, the conversation has moved on a bit. I'll be honest, I never originally expected PF to be as successful as it has been. I wondered who would pay that much for something so similar to 3.5.

Looking back on the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion, I should have predicted that the correct answer was "a lot of people".

[ericgrau]

This is a case of both high demand and low supply. 2e books merely have low supply. I'm regretting not taking a free PHB a friend was getting rid of, said I already had one.

I'd think the low price of 4e books would indicate that they can afford to sell them in volume which bodes well for them. Unless you mean they're expensive new and super cheap used.

EDIT: I was surprised Pathfinder turned into a workable system at all, but then I only took a good look at Pathfinder Alpha. After the revisions it got way better, and seems to have a lot of company support in general. If it's cheaper than 3.5 books I can see it taking off even more purely from similarity.

[Tyndmyr]

Nah, they're quite close to the same price new and used. Which, for those interested in buying a 4e book is a very good thing. Affordable to get, and if you later decide to sell, not a big hit. Win/Win.

For those interested in buying a 3.5 book, the increasing prices are definitely an obstacle. I'm happy I completed my collection before the prices really went up. I've got friends that are now regretting not doing so.

Edit: Yeah...the alpha had some issues. Pathfinder itself ain't perfect, but at least they sorted out some things. I like some of the stuff in it, some I don't...but all in all, it's pretty solid. Certainly a good thing to point to in favor of heavy playtesting and revision based on feedback.

[tcrudisi]

Edit: Yeah...the alpha had some issues. Pathfinder itself ain't perfect, but at least they sorted out some things. I like some of the stuff in it, some I don't...but all in all, it's pretty solid. Certainly a good thing to point to in favor of heavy playtesting and revision based on feedback.

I had heard that they completely ignored the playtesting feedback and just did what they wanted to do, anyway. I played in the beta but I have not played since then. Was that not true?

When it comes to revision based on feedback, I think WotC has really taken the crown with the very frequent rules updates.

[Reverent-One]

Interestingly, the 4e PHB has shot up to 5th overall in gaming on amazon, #2,350 in Books. The 3.5 PHB is a bit higher than it was at 8000ish, and Pathfinder is about where it was. Amazon rankings seem a bit swingy if that much change can happen in so short a time.

[Darth Stabber]

We may be looking at a repeat of what happened to White Wolf. They went from one of the most dependable non-hasbro publishers to a sad joke in the gaming industry. OWoD Books still command a fairly high price.

Used NWoD books are actually fairly cheap. Used NWoD Vampire the Requiem ($13)*, Used OWoD Vampire the Masquarade ($33)*. And can you think of anyone you know that prefers the new ruleset? White Wolf is pretty much dead in the water, they had a winning product and retooled the whole system for little gain. Yes they achieved greater greater balance and allowed full interoperability between Werewolf, Vampire and Mage (and sundry other weird things), but in the process they killed the charm that all of those quirks. And they changed all of the fluff too. Now they sit on the brink of financial ruin, and they no longer have the legions of Goth kids to save them. They have a couple of video game deals (based on OWoD properties) that are still in production, but that is the only black ink on their ledgers. (that and Exalted)

D&Dwise 4e lost WoTC some adherants (I think the vast bulk of D&Ders are either sticking with 3.x or switching to Pathfinder). But they can still move books thanks to their excellent content delivery system. The content is still suspect, but they are getting people to pay $10 a month rent and buy $30+ books (evil geniuses).

Now I do own a 4e PHB and I must say that I like having the magic Item section in the PHB as opposed to the DMG. It makes character creation much smoother. I don't hate 4e, but I don't consider it D&D. It is even fun in it's own right, I just wished they would have named it something else.


*Cheapest price assuming used condition

[Tyndmyr]

Interestingly, the 4e PHB has shot up to 5th overall in gaming on amazon, #2,350 in Books. The 3.5 PHB is a bit higher than it was at 8000ish, and Pathfinder is about where it was. Amazon rankings seem a bit swingy if that much change can happen in so short a time.

Yeah, it's a metric of current sales. It pretty much has to be, or else new books would always be rated low, and it'd be a very stagnant list.

The downside is a certain amount of volatility, though I didn't expect gaming books to be quite so affected. They didn't strike me as especially faddish or anything.

With regards to Darth...I've got almost a full collection of original 7th Sea D10 books. Those are expensive. Swordsman Guild tends to run about $150 or higher. I swear, they could make bank just by doing another print run of those books. Games are still popular too, which is fairly decent for a system that's been out of print for most of a decade.

I don't think WoTC is on the way out due to 4e...WoTC isn't that dependant on D&D even if it were a failure. They have MTG and such, they're unlikely to go the way of less fortunate publishers. No, if a version of D&D fails utterly, it's most likely to just be extremely bad news for D&D itself. I say extremely bad news because the first thing gaming companies tend to do at the sign of trouble is rebooting franchises, frequently aiming at a younger crowd. That would be a bad thing for D&D, IMO. 4e isn't that much of a failure from a marketing perspective though.

Ok, sure, there's a lot of fans that still love 3.5...and IMO, the failure to support these people led to the popularity of pathfinder, and is probably a bad long term move for them, but 4e is a good system for what it tries to do. The only real problem with this is that it is a system that tries to address things very differently from 3.5. Difference isn't good or bad inherently, but the more different the system, the more likely you are to split your market. I suspect they should have released D&D 4e, but called it something different and continued to support 3.5. Yes, it would have been a market split still, but it would have been a split in which they still controlled both aspects of it. Plus, lots of people play both.

The new pricing scheme probably is genius. I'll be honest, if they had it for 3.5, I'd probably pay it, just for an epic character creator like 4e has. And I own all the books already. If they had online gaming in addition to a character creator, replace probably with definitely.

[Reverent-One]

Used NWoD books are actually fairly cheap. Used NWoD Vampire the Requiem ($13)*, Used OWoD Vampire the Masquarade ($33)*. And can you think of anyone you know that prefers the new ruleset?

A number of people from this site, there's been debates about them between adherents of one and the other from time to time.

[CheshireCatAW]

I had heard that they completely ignored the playtesting feedback and just did what they wanted to do, anyway. I played in the beta but I have not played since then. Was that not true?

When it comes to revision based on feedback, I think WotC has really taken the crown with the very frequent rules updates.

Forgive me for being off topic but, generally speaking, you will always hear this from the fan base. Especially in regards to a revision and not an original product. Fans are notoriously cavil about revisions and their ideas of how the products should go will always vary wildly. Your best bet is to read over the Pathfinder PHB (Or SRD if you like) and look it over as though learning a new system. Lots of things are the same as Beta, lots of things are different. I like most of the changes, personally.

[Kurald Galain]

The new pricing scheme probably is genius. I'll be honest, if they had it for 3.5, I'd probably pay it, just for an epic character creator like 4e has.
Do you mean the "old" desktop-based character creator, or the "new" web-based one?

[Duos Greanleef]

4E is current, and promoted, so it is cheaper.
WotC could be pulling invisible strings from the shadows to raise the prices of 3.x to increase popularity in the most current edition.
/theory