GMing help [3.x]

[Doc Roc]

My players seem certain that warlock is the most powerful class, and were really quite angry at me when I suggested it was not. In fact, they were convinced wizard was quite weak. How do I deal with this? I was thinking of just ignoring it, and tailoring my encounters to them, and admitting my "mistake." But I'm not sure I want to lose that much face. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, here.

[0Megabyte]

The competitive part of me suggests that you create a single wizard enemy. Then, show them all the character sheet. Then, have everything rolled in the open, so they know you are not cheating.

And crush them. If they're level one, use sleep or color spray. If they're level eight, use greater invisibility, solid fog, and/or black tentacles, then plink at them with stuff like fireball or something else while they're stuck. If they're level 17, don't even worry about time stop. Just use something like prismatic sphere, then use whatever core spells you like. Save or dies are good. Or just blast them with evocations.

However, I shall appeal to the better part of our nature. Just play the game. And maybe throw some wizards at them that make things really hard for them, but don't break the game. Show them through example the power of that which they are dissing. But be polite. They want to play a low-op game? So be it. But don't lie and say they're right, either.

[Draz74]

If you can, just drop the issue and be confident enough in your position that you don't need to prove it in-game.

Encounter-wise, mostly tailor the encounters to the party's ability, but don't be afraid to throw in the occasional Tier-1 NPC who is beatable but will leave the party going, "Wow, that was a really nasty spell (or three)."

[Doc Roc]

It doesn't help that I've got a party of at least six. I have no idea what to do that'll produce combat which isn't stupidly swingy.

[Nohwl]

arena duels could work. if you don't want to do that, make them read the logic ninjas guide, treantmonks guide, and then make them read the tier list.

[Kobold Esq]

My players seem certain that warlock is the most powerful class, and were really quite angry at me when I suggested it was not. In fact, they were convinced wizard was quite weak. How do I deal with this? I was thinking of just ignoring it, and tailoring my encounters to them, and admitting my "mistake." But I'm not sure I want to lose that much face. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, here.

Why can't you just agree to disagree? If they want to use a warlock instead of a wizard, that is up to them. Do you force players who want to play fighters into playing warblades instead?

[Doc Roc]

Why can't you just agree to disagree? If they want to use a warlock instead of a wizard, that is up to them. Do you force players who want to play fighters into playing warblades instead?

Not at all, but I'm not the one who won't drop it, or this would never have been an issue. One of the players is apparently deeply affronted by how little I know about the system, and is pretty dead-set on teaching this young gun a lesson.

I wish I was joking. Further, when the party is large and primarily tier 4 with a couple tier 2 builds, it can be really difficult to write good encounters for them.

[0Megabyte]

Oh, in that case, go with my idea.

Crush this guy. Fairly, with the dice out in the open, and with him getting to see the sheet beforehand. Core only. Destroy him.

But then, that's my competitive side. Try to make it as light as you can. You probably shouldn't take this advice.

[ThirdEmperor]

I'd go with 0Megabyte said. Except maybe have the wizard spare him, after thoroughly kicking the crud outta him and taunting him about. That way, major villian instead of you just teaching him a lesson.

[Doc Roc]

Oh, in that case, go with my idea.

Crush this guy. Fairly, with the dice out in the open, and with him getting to see the sheet beforehand. Core only. Destroy him.

But then, that's my competitive side. Try to make it as light as you can. You probably shouldn't take this advice.

Probably (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfMjcxZm1xY3Q2YzI&hl=en) not (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AodLcxsM7Nx0dGFWbGY5TEJBYUtwN3dJZVVzWGsyM 3c&hl=en).

[TroubleBrewing]

Crush this guy. Fairly, with the dice out in the open, and with him getting to see the sheet beforehand. Core only. Destroy him.


This. I've had to do this with overly combative characters before. Paladin v. Battle Cleric, Monk v. Rogue, Fighter v. Barbarian... Some players just blatantly refuse to understand the tier system. Wizard ruins Warlock. Heck, Wizard ruins everything. Show them. Be not afraid of your power. You don't need to "Rocks fall, everyone dies", you just need to crush this guy once. You don't even need to kill him; you just need to humiliate his character.

[CycloneJoker]

Screw wizard, make a puppy-kicking orphanage-burning Tainted Scholar/Incantrix. Wizard is a two level class, after all. Or crush them with a commoner and say "So you think the warlock is good? Since a commoner beat it, commoner must be the most broke class, amirite? You fail logic and D&D forever."

[Endarire]

If you can tolerate his insistence no more, show him.

Solid fog + Evard's black tentacles cast by an invisible Wizard may not be sporting, but it's effective and it's core.

I've had a DM cry foul at only Evard's black tentacles.

[0Megabyte]

I even said that exact strategy!

Also, Doc, I couldn't access what you linked me to. What was it?

[Doc Roc]

I even said that exact strategy!

Also, Doc, I couldn't access what you linked me to. What was it?

The build for commodore guff, a core only wizard with three greater stone golems who lives inside a balor's body permanently.

[Jarian]

Just Feeblemind him and leave him that way.

Problem solved.

He can go begging to one of those "other, worse classes" if he wants it taken care of.

[true_shinken]

Why is that an issue, for starters?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Why is that an issue, for starters?

One payer seems to refuse to drop the "issue".

[true_shinken]

One payer seems to refuse to drop the "issue".
OK, so he thinks one class is stronger than the other and won't shut up about it. Again - what's the problem?

[mint]

Any true resolution here will save both your faces and keep the group intact is what I'm thinking. Which I gather is what you want.
So you can't just disprove him. Because being right isn't relevant. You need to dismantle rather than escalate the conflict and you can't do that by taking transparent shots at his position. He will just entrench.
If you have to engage with him on the issue see if you turn the argument into something other than what he was hoping for. One of my favourite ways of doing that is to have my tone completely mismatch the other guy's. For you, this could go like this:

"Warlocks can use their abilities INFINITE times a day!"
"Huh, what?"
"They are super best!"
"Oh, that's pretty good I guess"
"Much better than your wizards!"
"Oh, sorry I am a little distracted. There was this thing at... this guy in my office asked me out on a date today. I was caught of guard now I am going out for wakeboarding & shark sandwiches with a guy named Phill. I am not even gay. Do I seem gay?"

Make yourself a person to him rather than some uppity young'n he can be right at.
And then, if you are a good DM to them, your style will probably disseminate through the group over time. As it is wont to do.

[The Dark Fiddler]

OK, so he things one class is stronger than the other and won't shut up about it. Again - what's the problem?

I think you answered your own question there. That's generally something incredibly annoying to deal with, no matter the subject that's being contested.

[true_shinken]

I think you answered your own question there. That's generally something incredibly annoying to deal with, no matter the subject that's being contested.
Then, feeding him more ammunition for his argument is the problem (as in, 'crush him with a wizard hurr durr'). Just tell him to drop the argument and get to the game.

[boomwolf]

Simple. just tell him that "WoTC are dumb, so EVERY sourcebook has something for wizards an nearly none for warlocks. true that warlocks cast all day long, but wizards simply have like 10000 options of what to cast. and an abusive player can have his wizard know them ALL."

[nedz]

When people first come across Warlock they seem to have one of two reactions.

Theory X
Warlocks are rubbish: they have, like, no options. They are a one trick pony with their silly blast. I can't see any reason to play one.

Theory Y
Warlocks are uber powerful: they can do their blasts, and other stuff, like an infinite amount of times. This class is so broken I can't see why any DM would allow one.

Both are false, as any experience with the class in play will quickly reveal.

I had a player in my group who held Theory X quite strongly. I used a few as antagonists, and then gave them a Scout 6/Warlock 6 NPC ally to run for a while. His view has now changed, though I'm still not sure he would want to play one.

I had a discussion about this on another forum about a year ago. The concensus was that Warlocks are good at Inflitration, and make for a useful 5th wheel.

[Gadora]

Oh, in that case, go with my idea.

Crush this guy. Fairly, with the dice out in the open, and with him getting to see the sheet beforehand. Core only. Destroy him.

But then, that's my competitive side. Try to make it as light as you can. You probably shouldn't take this advice.

Do this, but not as part of the campaign, and with another person from the group as 'referee.'

Alternatively, ask him flat out why he won't drop it.

[Ernir]

Don't go "out to get him". Grit your teeth, play the campaign as normal (rolling of eyes when he starts jabbering optional). Include Warlocks and Wizards where appropriate. Let the players reach their own conclusions about which they'd rather not face again.

[Quirp]

...One of the players is apparently deeply affronted by how little I know about the system...

Sounds like one of the better jokes I have heard in the last weeks.

I wouldn´t beat (crush) him with a wizard, but let him fight lower level wizards that give him great trouble and then show him their stats/sheets. That way you don´t kill the group, but still show him the power of wizards.

[nedz]

How long has he been playing this character ?

Just let him play it for a while and the truth will out.

[Dralnu]

I have a similar issue in my gaming group. One player is convinced that ToB is grossly overpowered compared to a druid or wizard. I mention that a purely PHB wizard or druid can easily outshine anything from ToB but he'll have none of it.

I didn't pursue the argument. Instead, I made one of my encounters against a single wizard. I took it straight out of the DMG, one of their premade NPC wizards, I think it was level 9 and definitely not well made at all. I switched up his spells (only PHB) and let him start with mage armor already cast. A level 8 group of warblade, scout, assassin, and favored soul against him.

The party didn't win. Invisibility, mirror image, glitterdust, slow, summoned monsters, stinking cloud, confusion for kicks. I just messed around with them.

Mind you, I rarely do this. I know my players don't like it when I debuff them or make them feel useless so I avoid it. But next time I hear that a warblade is OP compared to a druid, I'm throwing an optimized core-only druid at them and see how they feel about that.