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View Full Version : [3.5] Baleful Geas seems intere... wait, WHAT?!?!



tuesdayscoming
2011-02-26, 06:10 AM
H'okay!

So I was reading through the Dragonfire Adept class earlier tonight, and one particular invocation caught my eye. Actually, more like it jumped off the page and screamed "DEAR BABY JESUS, WHY WOULD YOU EVER NOT SELECT ME?"

I'm writing, of course, about Baleful Geas (Dragon Magic, 79). The invocation works, effectively, as the Geas/Quest spell from the SRD, except that it deals 1d4 strength damage to the affected subject every day, up until the point when said subject is reduced to zero strength, at which point the effect is dispelled. Otherwise, the effect is, again, identical to that of the Geas/Quest spell.

This is all well and good. Sure, this spell, irresistible as it is and effective regardless of target HD, is super-epic-take-over-the-world-awesome, but limited by its 10-minute casting time.

Apparently, though, WotC, in writing up this class, said to themselves "Hey, what the hell? The word 'Dragon' is in the name of the damned game, why don't we just make every freakin' thing even vaguely associated with them broken as hell?"

That's right, "using a [Dragonfire Adept] invocation is... a standard action" (Dragon Magic 25). Am I just crazy? Please tell me I'm crazy. Otherwise the only way that I can interpret this is as an insta-win button against just about anything. Sure, in your high-level adventuring you'll encounter a good number of creatures immune to mind affecting abilities. This does not include, however, the ruling family of your average nation, to provide just one example of a single target that would make this invocation extraordinarily broken.

I mean come on. There are 14,400 rounds in a given day. Just go to any capital city, spend all your time Geasing the populous, and overthrow the government, setting yourself up as the new ruler. Wash, rinse, repeat. The world is now yours.

Am I missing something crucial here? Please, please tell me that I am.

Fizban
2011-02-26, 06:24 AM
Well, there's the fact that neither this nor the normal version of Geas deals anywhere near enough damage to matter. Lesser Restoration restores the same 1d4 ability damage for a 2nd level slot, and anyone worth Geas'ing will easily have that available, just like they could easily beat 3d6 damage per day. The only difference is that the invocation is a lot easier to use, so I expect the DM could slap it on the players a lot more easily, but again, the damage isn't enough to matter for a prepared adventurer.

Now, if Geas slapped you with say, a negative level every daythat would be incentive to do as you're told.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-26, 06:30 AM
Well, there's the fact that neither this nor the normal version of Geas deals anywhere near enough damage to matter

The damage, though, really doesn't matter.

Geas: "functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw."

Lesser Geas: "The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes... If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores."

Emphasis mine. It seems that the victim has no choice in the matter. If, however, they are chained up in a dungeon and cannot act on their orders, they take additional penalties.

starwoof
2011-02-26, 06:33 AM
Actually if he's geasing the entire populace (why not? there's enough geas to go around!) there probably wouldn't be enough lesser restorations to go around. So... yeah Baleful Geas as an invocation is pretty nuts. I certainly wouldn't allow it in my games... but I would argue with my DM for hours to let me use it. :smallbiggrin:

Fizban
2011-02-26, 06:44 AM
The damage, though, really doesn't matter.

Geas: "functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw."

Lesser Geas: "The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes... If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores."

Emphasis mine. It seems that the victim has no choice in the matter. If, however, they are chained up in a dungeon and cannot act on their orders, they take additional penalties.

*Looks spell up again* Huh, so it does. Well if it works that way then yeah, it's pretty ridiculously broken. I'm pretty sure I've heard a lot of other people discussing it the way I was though. Need a better rules lawyer in here.

I would point out that it's not like they were specifically trying to cut down the casting time. Invocations are standard actions by default. The real problem would be the person who thought a 10 minute casting time no-save compulsion was a good idea to use at will. Even without the casting time reduction you could find plenty of ways to abuse that.

Nice point there starwoof, supply and demand would indeed become a problem if you hit everybody. Of course, hitting everybody requires surviving the ensuing riot when the second half figures out the first half is under your thrall, so I'm still thinking it's not the best idea.

starwoof
2011-02-26, 07:00 AM
Nice point there starwoof, supply and demand would indeed become a problem if you hit everybody. Of course, hitting everybody requires surviving the ensuing riot when the second half figures out the first half is under your thrall, so I'm still thinking it's not the best idea.

Well, it's not perfect. Personally I would geas the half that can use weapons first. :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2011-02-26, 07:23 AM
This can't kill, not directly anyway, as 0 Strength doesn't kill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) And if it dispels the effect at 0 strength, all the geased one has to do is not follow the geas in a safe enviroment until they are at 0 strength, then regain it naturally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage), now geas free. In short, their geas is not cooked.:smallbiggrin:
It could, in theory, delay them and that can be useful, but this isn't as bad as you think even if they have access to no magic whatsoever.

Xiander
2011-02-26, 07:43 AM
This can't kill, not directly anyway, as 0 Strength doesn't kill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) And if it dispels the effect at 0 strength, all the geased one has to do is not follow the geas in a safe enviroment until they are at 0 strength, then regain it naturally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage), now geas free. In short, their geas is not cooked.:smallbiggrin:
It could, in theory, delay them and that can be useful, but this isn't as bad as you think even if they have access to no magic whatsoever.

Problem is that they cannot. They must follow the geas. The str dam only apply if someone ties them up or locks them in a cellar or something.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-26, 07:51 AM
Problem is that they cannot. They must follow the geas. The str dam only apply if someone ties them up or locks them in a cellar or something.
Everyone has friends.
"If I am geased, lock me up until I can't move."
Done and done.

Tael
2011-02-26, 08:16 AM
Okay, this is incorrect on many levels. One, an Invocation is a Spell-like Ability, and so it takes the same time to cast as the base spell unless otherwise specified. The actual text is:

A dragonfire adept's invocations are spell-like abilities: using
an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks
of opportunity.
The "using an invocation is therefore a standard action" part is for example, as the shown by the "Therefore".

Also, Baleful Geas specifically says that the target's HD must be less than your Dragonfire Adept level.

Baleful Geas is actually pretty terrible.

boomwolf
2011-02-26, 09:26 AM
Everyone has friends.
"If I am geased, lock me up until I can't move."
Done and done.

Problem is, if you hit the friend with a geas too, he wont set you free (until ordered to, after the guy re-geas you.)

Escheton
2011-02-26, 09:43 AM
It's basically a jedi mind trick again minions and peons.
Instead of casting suggestion on the guard to let you through you send him on a quest to get you a danish.

If used to cite rebellion it could get out of hand, but otherwise it's fine. If indeed it's effective hd is capped by your classlvl.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-26, 09:47 AM
Problem is, if you hit the friend with a geas too, he wont set you free (until ordered to, after the guy re-geas you.) That is assuming Mr. Adept knows who this friend is and gets to them before you recover. Possible, sure, likely, maybe, but by no means certain. A lot of players may even assume Evil Dude doesn't even have friends.

Ernir
2011-02-26, 09:58 AM
Eh. I think that by the time you're done sending a quarter of the population on a quest to worship your feet, someone with more HD than you have DFA levels will have noticed and disemboweled you.

But the bigger point is - being able to give a city major trouble at ECL 11 is not a DFA-only trick. Hell, a level 11 Fighter can kill someone as easily as a DFA can send them Questing.

The str dam only apply if someone ties them up or locks them in a cellar or something. Baleful Geas always deals the strength damage, regardless of whether it is prevented from completing the quest or not.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-26, 12:59 PM
Actually if he's geasing the entire populace (why not? there's enough geas to go around!) there probably wouldn't be enough lesser restorations to go around. So... yeah Baleful Geas as an invocation is pretty nuts. I certainly wouldn't allow it in my games... but I would argue with my DM for hours to let me use it. :smallbiggrin:
It doesn`t have one target limit like the Charm invocation?

I'm away from books right now, but it just doesn't sound right.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-26, 01:08 PM
Baleful Geas always deals the strength damage, regardless of whether it is prevented from completing the quest or not.

In that case, my original solution for even a perfectly mundane Fighter still stands.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-26, 01:26 PM
Okay, this is incorrect on many levels. One, an Invocation is a Spell-like Ability, and so it takes the same time to cast as the base spell unless otherwise specified. The actual text is:
The "using an invocation is therefore a standard action" part is for example, as the shown by the "Therefore".

Also, Baleful Geas specifically says that the target's HD must be less than your Dragonfire Adept level.

Baleful Geas is actually pretty terrible.

Ahh, I had indeed overlooked the clause about target HD. Good catch.

I think a case could be made, though, that the "is therefore a standard action" bit does actually fulfill the "unless otherwise stated" of the spell-like ability description. It's a dubious interpretation, but a better rules lawyer than myself might be able to make the case.

Ultimately, I feel that the viability of this invocation really hinges on what side of the fence that argument resolves on. Unlimited irresistible compulsion, even just on targets of lower HD, is a pretty impressive feature if you can use it every 6 seconds. Next to useless, though, if only once every ten minutes (especially considering you'd have to be in the target's presence the whole damn time).

Psyren
2011-02-26, 01:27 PM
Okay, this is incorrect on many levels. One, an Invocation is a Spell-like Ability, and so it takes the same time to cast as the base spell unless otherwise specified. The actual text is:
The "using an invocation is therefore a standard action" part is for example, as the shown by the "Therefore".

Also, Baleful Geas specifically says that the target's HD must be less than your Dragonfire Adept level.

Baleful Geas is actually pretty terrible.

Quoting since nobody (edit: except tuesday) appears to have read it.
I wouldn't call it terrible, but surely there's better ways to take over a city at level 11.

golentan
2011-02-26, 01:44 PM
Quoting since nobody (edit: except tuesday) appears to have read it.
I wouldn't call it terrible, but surely there's better ways to take over a city at level 11.

Some might have differing opinions...
http://midnightinsomniac.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/lelouch_011_animestockscom3.jpg

Though, as Ernir points out it always deals strength damage, meaning that your peons will be physically weak (and since they're unlikely to be spellcasters, unable to serve in an effective army for you when people come to take your city back) and free of your influence before the month has elapsed.

Edit: I do read the invocation entry as saying that invocations are standard actions unless otherwise specified, so I can't agree with the quote though. "Therefore" does not denote an example, it specifies that as SLAs *therefore* they provoke AoO.

Murphy80
2011-02-26, 02:13 PM
Lesser Geas also says, "A clever recipient can subvert some instructions" and "A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish." Anybody who would be "broken" to geas (the king, his advisor,etc...) should have training to recognize the signs of magical cumpulsion and then have people (court wizards, clerics) to deal with it. It's as broken as the DM lets it be.

Though I am surprised that they didn't include the same line they did with the warlocks Charm ability; Only 1 target at a time. Being able to spam it across multiple targets (regardless of how long it takes to use) does make it more powerful.

Psyren
2011-02-26, 02:23 PM
Anybody who would be "broken" to geas (the king, his advisor,etc...) should have training to recognize the signs of magical cumpulsion and then have people (court wizards, clerics) to deal with it.

Sense Motive can also uncover it, whether you've been previously exposed or not.

Gavinfoxx
2011-02-26, 03:40 PM
Instead of casting suggestion on the guard to let you through you send him on a quest to get you a danish.


Shades of Harry Dresden, eh?