[3.5] When a character can't keep up.

[Ursus the Grim]

I just started a level 10 Monstrous campaign. For some perspective, the characters are

A Werebear Barbarian 1. As expected, extremely high damage output and the DR make her probably the top contender.
A Half-Dragon Sorceress 7. I feel like Arcane Spellcasters really hit their stride about this level. Her Lightning Bolts keep pace with the Werebear's greataxe.
A Dragonkin Fighter 1. A bit of a wildcard. The flight and reach were used pretty tactically by the player and he has a high Armor Class. Not that any of that helped against a Sunwyrm.

Then there's the Kuo Toa. Monk 5. I know Monk is a low-tiered class, mostly because of MAD. However, because our player counts can often change, I let them use 5d6 for their ability scores, resulting in generally high scores across the board. Kuo-Toa seemed like a good idea, ability bonuses to the stats that matter and a penalty to the only one that doesn't.

The Kuo Toa appears to be quite mediocre. Unarmed damage of only d8, twice a turn with moderate strength. Armor class is only slightly above average. Average speed. Average hit points (the class level advantage is somewhat countered by their partner's Constitutions). The only thing she can do well is spot things and swim. Unfortunately, its an arid environment. I'd rely on suggesting items to min/max, but the Monk's belt is too expensive at this point.

Does anyone have any suggestions for helping the character pick up the slack? It reflects especially poorly on me because I helped with that one. I allow her to use the 3.0 Monk because she has the older handbook, but I noticed a lot of things have changed for that class. Would the 3.5 version be even marginally better? Or is Kuo Toa just relatively weak for an ECL 5?

[Serpentine]

If you're considering switching from the 3.0 to the 3.5 Monk, have you considered moving to Swordsage or the Pathfinder Monk*?
Otherwise, you could try weapons and other items, maybe...


*Haven't looked at it, but I presume it's better.

[Ursus the Grim]

I've been considering a more dramatic shift, especially with what Tome of Battle proposes. However, this is the one player in the group I walk on eggshells around. She's pretty sensitive about having an outdated book, so I'd like to try and keep things core.

Don't know much about Pathfinder. I've heard good things about it, but I don't want to introduce it yet.

[starwoof]

If you are willing to use classes from outside of 3.5, you may want to consider making her a Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk). It is very similar but a bit stronger, mostly because of the Ki pool that lets them make more attacks, run faster, etc. It doesn't sound like that alone will be enough, but it could be a good start.

EDIT: Dangit, I got swordsage'd. Also, can't swordsage do a good unarmed build?

[Serpentine]

Wellllll... What if you look at what the Swordsage and the Pathfinder Monk can do, and just give her a few of their abilities? You could make it a negotiation thing, if you wanted - take this flaw and I'll give you this feat that opens up all these fancy new abilities to you, or attach it to an item.
Odd thing to be sensitive about...

[Ursus the Grim]

I'll take a look at the Pathfinder Monk then. Swordsage does have a good unarmed variant (using it for my Lizardfolk), but the maneuver mechanic might be a touch too much. She's still a bit new to it, and is slower to pick it up then the other rookies.

Of course, she's evil, so I can't even VoP it up.

Edit:
Yeah, Pathfinder does seem a bit better. I'm going to convert a few things for 3.5 and then give it to her as a list of "extra" abilities instead of a superior class.

I just need to make sure she doesn't expect to be main dps or tank.

[Chilingsworth]

Umm... what the heck is a Kuo Toa doing in a desert? And how is it not dead from dehydration? :smallconfused:

Edit:

Or heatstroke?

Or having its skin abraded away in a sandstorm?

[Serpentine]

Edit:
Yeah, Pathfinder does seem a bit better. I'm going to convert a few things for 3.5 and then give it to her as a list of "extra" abilities instead of a superior class.

I just need to make sure she doesn't expect to be main dps or tank.Maybe consider looking into feats and stuff to assist the others, like Distracting Attack like things.

[Ursus the Grim]

Umm... what the heck is a Kuo Toa doing in a desert? And how is it not dead from dehydration? :smallconfused:

Its a foreigner to these lands. And the Monster Manual states under Amphibious that although a Kuo Toa is primarily aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land. I interpret that to mean that they're just as comfortable as a human on land (with the exception of 20 foot speed flippers). Once they're out long enough for endurance to be an issue, I'll probably throw in a -2 penalty for her.

And considering a Natural Armor bonus of +6 (roughly equivalent to scale mail, I think), I doubt some grit is going to kill her.

As for support role, we may have a kyton PC joining the party that will probably fill the niche with four tripping, disarming spiked chains.

[Serpentine]

Thennn... you'd better start thinking about what role she will be playing.

[Ursus the Grim]

Perhaps grappler (ugh) and supplementary dps. Closest thing to a skill monkey the party has for now. I guess that means she's support after all, eh?

Anyway, yep. Pathfinder monk seems workable. Thanks for that. I don't really need anything else, but I will respond as the discussion may progress.

[Chilingsworth]

Its a foreigner to these lands. And the Monster Manual states under Amphibious that although a Kuo Toa is primarily aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land. I interpret that to mean that they're just as comfortable as a human on land (with the exception of 20 foot speed flippers). Once they're out long enough for endurance to be an issue, I'll probably throw in a -2 penalty for her.

And considering a Natural Armor bonus of +6 (roughly equivalent to scale mail, I think), I doubt some grit is going to kill her.

As for support role, we may have a kyton PC joining the party that will probably fill the niche with four tripping, disarming spiked chains.

Oh, +6 natural armor? I had forgotten kuo toa were that tough.

[Vknight]

Yeah they surprise you with that.
I got nothing but what already been said.

Maybe change her to the 'Chaos Monk' variant.

[Tyndmyr]

I've been considering a more dramatic shift, especially with what Tome of Battle proposes. However, this is the one player in the group I walk on eggshells around. She's pretty sensitive about having an outdated book, so I'd like to try and keep things core.

Don't know much about Pathfinder. I've heard good things about it, but I don't want to introduce it yet.

Monks with LA are a problem. They rely on the monk levels to get the unarmed boosts, and monks are already a bit weak.

See if you can't arrange for the character to get a monks belt or other helpful items. Any item that will allow herself to say, enlarge herself, or move and still flurry of blows is likely going to be helpful. Look into combination items, as per MiC. For instance, making a monks belt with a +str bonus on it is entirely legit, and is fantastic for a monk. If you're feeling generous, mix in the belt of battle abilities as well.

Also, if you don't already, consider allowing her to get enchantment bonuses to her natural weapons like others do for their usual weapons. Gauntlets, handwraps, whatever you wanna call it. Access to fun magic weapon bonuses while still using unarmed damage is quite helpful.

By using a more item-based approach, it helps avoid her changing her character dramatically but still solves the issue.

[Ursus the Grim]

Monks with LA are a problem. They rely on the monk levels to get the unarmed boosts, and monks are already a bit weak.

See if you can't arrange for the character to get a monks belt or other helpful items. Any item that will allow herself to say, enlarge herself, or move and still flurry of blows is likely going to be helpful. Look into combination items, as per MiC. For instance, making a monks belt with a +str bonus on it is entirely legit, and is fantastic for a monk. If you're feeling generous, mix in the belt of battle abilities as well.

Also, if you don't already, consider allowing her to get enchantment bonuses to her natural weapons like others do for their usual weapons. Gauntlets, handwraps, whatever you wanna call it. Access to fun magic weapon bonuses while still using unarmed damage is quite helpful.

By using a more item-based approach, it helps avoid her changing her character dramatically but still solves the issue.

I wasn't too worried about the natural weapon/unarmed thing because I think Kuo Toa only have a bite. I was leaning towards an amulet of mighty fists for her. I don't just want to hand her magic items, though. I'm extremely type A when it comes to loot. I guess I could probably through one in in a batch of treasure and just compensate for it elsewhere.

Necklace of Natural Weapons is what would probably enchant her unarmed and natural attacks, but I think Amulet of Mighty Fists is a better buy point for point.

[jiriku]

While you seem to have settled on a good solution to the monk's poor class features, a real concern is that most monk-oriented feats are pretty sub-par. Check the revised monk link my sig and scroll down to the third post - you'll find suggested revisions for most monk-oriented feats that will give her better options to choose from as she levels. If you agree with the revisions, you can propose houserules to amend the feats as described.

[Ursus the Grim]

While you seem to have settled on a good solution to the monk's poor class features, a real concern is that most monk-oriented feats are pretty sub-par. Check the revised monk link my sig and scroll down to the third post - you'll find suggested revisions for most monk-oriented feats that will give her better options to choose from as she levels. If you agree with the revisions, you can propose houserules to amend the feats as described.

I had actually just been considering feats when I came back. I'm afraid to propose any to her because I don't want to take over her character. I decided its up to her to take it, her choice if she wants to be effective in terms of feats.

I was going to recommend Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike and judge that it all stacks with Monk's Belt when she gets it. That would bring her damage from d8 to 3d6, I believe, and using the Pathfinder Monk avoids the 'technically, she doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike' debate.

The Ascetic feats would be a major mistake, IMO, considering her effective monk level is low enough as it is. Flying Kick and Earth's Embrace are worth proposing, but the rest have too many prerequisites for a character with only 7 HD.

[jiriku]

Rolling big handfuls of dice always gets their blood racing! ! Good call. While many of the other feats are intended for higher level monks, there's nothing wrong with implementing the house rules now before she levels up. Think of it as clearing a minefield that lies in her intended path of travel. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Is it bad that i knew this thread would be about monks before even reading the OP? :smalltongue:

Someone suggested the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) - one of the variants would be pretty useful I think. It would work better with the Pathfinder combat system though.

[Dralnu]

I've heard that githzerai make for good monks with those stat boosts and inertial armor. If she's not attached to her race, it might be another way to boost her a bit.

[Barbarian MD]

Use the Penny Dreadful Monk: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en

I've used this with great effect with things like Grappling Block and Defensive Throw, as well as a focus on grappling/disarm/trip. Basically, I'd hold down the enemy, while the melee people would clobber it. Impossible to hit if you have a good disarm check.

[ericgrau]

Unarmed damage of only d8, twice a turn with moderate strength
Strength is a monk's primary stat. What is he smoking if he has moderate strength in a high stats campaign. And why did he pick a template that makes him lose 3 AB on a melee character? For wisdom for his stunning fists that can't even hit now? It should be no surprise that he's falling behind in damage even if he were playing a barbarian. And at his level he should be using a monk weapon, not unarmed strikes. A +1 spell storing weapon or +1 shocking weapon or etc. will deal more damage, especially with flurry. Unarmed strikes are good for stunning fist and grappling ONLY, not pure damage. Not knowing how to use a level 1 primary class feature is another issue right there.

He might as well be a wizard with a high dexterity and low int, heck that'd be a lot better because at least he could still cast rays pretty well. Please let him start over this won't work even if you change or adjust his class.

Besides the magic weapon standard melee gear for his level would be +2 gauntlest of ogre power and +1 bracers of armor. Or +1 armor for other classes. Or better yet for a monk ask the sorcerer for a mage armor.

[Vknight]

You could also give him Grafts and templates. Say when he was captured the bad guys experimented on him.

[TurtleKing]

Since it seems she is a skill monkey see if she can get Knowledge Devotion. Depending on her knowledge check determines the bonus to attack and damage. Since they are in a desert theme campaign try using Sandstorm it could help.

[Sith_Happens]

Rolling big handfuls of dice always gets their blood racing! ! Good call.

Greater Mighty Wallop. That is all.

[JaronK]

Unarmed Swordsage would, of course, help a great deal. They're also a LOT more fun to play.

But if not that, consider Shou Disciple, which is a 3.0 class anyway that really helps Monks out. She'd want to wait another level before going in it, though.

As the DM, I think you should just drop some "random" loot that happens to help her, like Amulets of Mighty Fists and Monk's Belts.

JaronK

[Fitz10019]

Maybe the wearbear should bite the monk. :smallbiggrin:


The Ascetic feats ...

The existing Ascetic feats allow other classes' levels to stack for the purposes of one or more class features. I'm not suggesting this character should multiclass, but you could treat her ECL5 as "Kuo Toa levels" as if she were already multiclassing.

Offer your monk a custom Ascetic feat that will allow the "Kuo Toa levels" to stack towards 2 of these monk feature columns: Special, Flurry AB, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, Fast Movement.

[Ursus the Grim]

Strength is a monk's primary stat. What is he smoking if he has moderate strength in a high stats campaign. And why did he pick a template that makes him lose 3 AB on a melee character? For wisdom for his stunning fists that can't even hit now? It should be no surprise that he's falling behind in damage even if he were playing a barbarian. And at his level he should be using a monk weapon, not unarmed strikes. A +1 spell storing weapon or +1 shocking weapon or etc. will deal more damage, especially with flurry. Unarmed strikes are good for stunning fist and grappling ONLY, not pure damage. Not knowing how to use a level 1 primary class feature is another issue right there.

He might as well be a wizard with a high dexterity and low int, heck that'd be a lot better because at least he could still cast rays pretty well. Please let him start over this won't work even if you change or adjust his class.

Besides the magic weapon standard melee gear for his level would be +2 gauntlest of ogre power and +1 bracers of armor. Or +1 armor for other classes. Or better yet for a monk ask the sorcerer for a mage armor.

First, I appreciate the time you took to respond in this thread. You raise a couple of good points, but I think they're a little unjustified.

This is not really a group of min/maxers. Her strength is moderate relative to the other characters. Namely, a Werebear Barbarian and a Dragonkin Fighter. Her character is a Kuo Toa Monk. Kuo Toa are not as strong as Werebears or Dragonkin. Monks are not as melee-based as Barbarians or Fighters. Her Strength is about 20 or 22. I would argue that Constitution is important for a character that is missing several Hit Die and has relatively low hit die anyway. Wisdom is important for Stunning fist, as you said, but also for the Armor Class. As I'm sure you know. So her Strength isn't necessarily poor, as was misinterpreted. Its just not as ungodly high as two of the rest of the party.

I may not understand the acronym "AB". Attack Bonus? Because being a Monstrous Character, Kuo-Toa have base attack equal to their hit die. Which is actually better than the Monk's base attack.

So the player wants to use unarmed attacks. That's a bit of personal, fluffy preference that I don't think requires condescension to be addressed.

Finally, she already has the bracers and gauntlet.



As the DM, I think you should just drop some "random" loot that happens to help her, like Amulets of Mighty Fists and Monk's Belts.

JaronK


That was part of the plan. Unfortunately, they will be going up against NPCs soon and their gear is their loot. However, there is the loot from the Sunwyrm that they killed and haven't gotten yet and is considerable enough to include the Monk's Belt at least.


Maybe the wearbear should bite the monk. :smallbiggrin:

The existing Ascetic feats allow other classes' levels to stack for the purposes of one or more class features. I'm not suggesting this character should multiclass, but you could treat her ECL5 as "Kuo Toa levels" as if she were already multiclassing.

Offer your monk a custom Ascetic feat that will allow the "Kuo Toa levels" to stack towards 2 of these monk feature columns: Special, Flurry AB, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, Fast Movement.

Werebear? Thanks for giving me a heads-up before they try that. I'd probably take into account their new ECLs and just give them a harder challenge to compensate anyway. I know it was a joke, but I need a plan just in case.

Anyway, Ascetic Kuo-Toa could work. Its actually something I hadn't considered at all. Even farther out than Pathfinder material, and it would help me avoid "hijacking" her character in order to make it playable.

[Urpriest]

Why is she only attacking twice a turn? It doesn't sound like she has Snap Kick, so you mean on a full attack? Then she at least has Flurry and Bite, for three attacks.

Edit: Also, given that Kuo-Toa are quite commonly Monks, I would probably houserule the Pincer Staff to be a Monk weapon. Letting her grapple people ten feet away on attacks of opportunity is nice enough to make her feel like she has something to do, even if it overlaps a little with the Kyton.

[Ursus the Grim]

Why is she only attacking twice a turn? It doesn't sound like she has Snap Kick, so you mean on a full attack? Then she at least has Flurry and Bite, for three attacks.

Edit: Also, given that Kuo-Toa are quite commonly Monks, I would probably houserule the Pincer Staff to be a Monk weapon. Letting her grapple people ten feet away on attacks of opportunity is nice enough to make her feel like she has something to do, even if it overlaps a little with the Kyton.

There's a little bit of confusion that I'm going to need to look at her copy of the PHB to clear up. I am not sure if she knows she can flurry. She's using 3.0 monk, which I hesitated to upgrade to 3.5, but will be throwing into Pathfinder. Also, I must admit we may have kind of overlooked the bite as "not worth it". She'd be taking a -5 penalty to hit and have relatively weak damage with it. Still, an attack is an attack, and I'll make sure she remembers it in the future.

I considered the Pincer staff, but it says it requires exotic weapon proficiency and only talked about fighters using it. I'll see how the rest of the changes help her before I try and prod her towards a reach, grappling weapon.

[Urpriest]

There's a little bit of confusion that I'm going to need to look at her copy of the PHB to clear up. I am not sure if she knows she can flurry. She's using 3.0 monk, which I hesitated to upgrade to 3.5, but will be throwing into Pathfinder. Also, I must admit we may have kind of overlooked the bite as "not worth it". She'd be taking a -5 penalty to hit and have relatively weak damage with it. Still, an attack is an attack, and I'll make sure she remembers it in the future.

I considered the Pincer staff, but it says it requires exotic weapon proficiency and only talked about fighters using it. I'll see how the rest of the changes help her before I try and prod her towards a reach, grappling weapon.

It also says clerics use it. Again, it seems like a reasonable houserule would involve giving weapon familiarity with the thing. But if such a build seems too complicated that is of course an important consideration.