Ego Whip: Overpowered or Just good?

[Tael]

My group is conflicted about this power. Do you think it should be banned? Why/why not?

[The Glyphstone]

It's one of the best powers psionics has, honestly, but solely because it is Save for Half. It scales horribly, and is severely hampered by having the [Mind-affecting] tag, which makes it worthless versus a good number of enemies, and everything at high levels is Mind Blanked anyways.

it's sweet spot is levels 7-11, when you're doing 2d4-3d4 Cha damage/pop. Below 7, the Save DC is too low, and past 15, it's useless due to Mind Blank.

[Cespenar]

Good, not overpowered. I mean, it's not Shivering Touch.

[Mastikator]

I don't think it's overpowered. At least not when compared to spells. If a wizard with Ray of Enfeeble is allowed, so should a psion with Ego Whip.

Edit:


[snip] and past 15, it's useless due to Mind Blank.

Useless is a bit of an overstatement don't you think? Yeah, it's useless if your oponent is a wizard who knows you're gonna use mind-affecting powers and when you're gonna strike.
Otherwise half the school of necromancy is useless past level 7 since clerics get Death Ward :/

[Land Outcast]

I don't think it's overpowered. At least not when compared to spells. If a wizard with Ray of Enfeeble is allowed, so should a psion with Ego Whip.
No way, ray of enfeeblement doesn't do damage but gives a penalty, you're not dropping anyone with ray of enfeeblement alone. It is one hell of a good debuff though.

2d4-3d4 Cha will instantly drop most combat brutes, and if it doesn't, the second casting will.

[Zaq]

I say that any spell or effect that does automatic stat damage with no save (or save for half) is kind of overpowered. Basically, I ask myself "just how cheap would this feel if it were used against me?" Some things are quite nasty but wouldn't feel like a cheap shot. Unpreventable stat damage, on the other hand, just rubs me the wrong way.

[Mastikator]

No way, ray of enfeeblement doesn't do damage but gives a penalty, you're not dropping anyone with ray of enfeeblement alone. It is one hell of a good debuff though.

2d4-3d4 Cha will instantly drop most combat brutes, and if it doesn't, the second casting will.

3d4 will deal on average 7.5 charisma damage, 12 max. At level 11 even brutes have at least 8 charisma (earth elemental for example has 11 charisma)
The daze part is dangerous since you'll be able to manifest again undisturbed, but it's not a one-shotter unless you're targeting a really weak combat brute.

[Fox Box Socks]

Useless is a bit of an overstatement don't you think? Yeah, it's useless if your oponent is a wizard who knows you're gonna use mind-affecting powers and when you're gonna strike.
Otherwise half the school of necromancy is useless past level 7 since clerics get Death Ward :/
Meh. When I DM'd 3.5, past a certain level everything gets Mind Blank. Boosting Will shots off too many options, and monsters being dominated gets really old, really quickly.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think it's "overpowered" in that it's better than the vast majority of attack powers of similar levels. I do not however believe it is OP to the point of being broken or anything.

If this power is causing real problems with your group though, it may be prudent to nerf (Will Negates should be enough) or even ban it. It might not be all that bad in a vacuum, but do what works for you. If you love using low-cha brutes and want the players to actually fight them instead of putting them into comas, this is perfectly reasonable.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think it's overpowered. At least not when compared to spells. If a wizard with Ray of Enfeeble is allowed, so should a psion with Ego Whip.

Edit:



Useless is a bit of an overstatement don't you think? Yeah, it's useless if your oponent is a wizard who knows you're gonna use mind-affecting powers and when you're gonna strike.
Otherwise half the school of necromancy is useless past level 7 since clerics get Death Ward :/

The difference is that Death Ward is a short-duration spell, whereas Mind Blank lasts 24 hours. Your opponent doesn't need to be a wizard or know when you're going to strike (or even if you exist to threaten him), he just needs to either be a wizard or be friends with a wizard who can spare a single 8th level slot.

Still, you're partially right, in that relying on save-or-dies from Necromancy school is virtually useless at high levels, because Death Ward effects are trivial to obtain -around the same time Mind Blank appears.

[gomipile]

Meh. When I DM'd 3.5, past a certain level everything gets Mind Blank. Boosting Will shots off too many options, and monsters being dominated gets really old, really quickly.

I would imagine that your strategy would get really old, really quickly to anyone whose character was based around mind affecting effects.

[Dalek-K]

One way to make players not pick up certain spells and abilities is to say

"Anything you use I will too"


I doubt any player would pick up things like Shivering Touch or Ego Whip.


:smallbiggrin:

[Havelock]

It generally doesn't drop things in one round. You'll need to be at lvl9 so you can empower it for average of 7.5, which occationally goes high enough to threaten low-Cha things. Next step is empowered at LvL13, brings average up at 11,25...but there's save or die available at that level anyways. And it's mind-affecting. Twin empowered does 15 average at LvL15, 22,5 at LvL19, that's a potential save and die anyways.

One of it's better uses is to knock sorcerers and other charisma based casters down a peg.

You'll ordinarily need slightly more to drop someone in one round before there are easier ways to do it. Telepath 13 could pull it off like this:
1. Schism (cast temporal acceleration to get it up if you have not yet done so)
2. Empowered ego whip, deals 11.25 average
3. submind casts ego whip, deals 5 average
4. anticipatory strike
5. empowered ego whip, deals 11.25 average
6. submind casts ego whip, deals 5 average

That's about 1/3 of all your powerpoints, you have spent next rounds actions, that's likely at least 20 charisma damage, but not enough to stop CR13+ demons or devils.

It would be great if you somehow could synergize it with charisma debilitation from your party members, but that's rather rare.

[Tael]

One way to make players not pick up certain spells and abilities is to say

"Anything you use I will too"


I doubt any player would pick up things like Shivering Touch or Ego Whip.


:smallbiggrin:

Pff, Necropolitan laughs at your ability damage.

On the more serious side, Ability Damage is pretty easy to heal. I'd actually prefer that a DM uses enemies with ability damage, because it greatly reduces chance of actual death, and can be really healed easily with stuff like an Orb of Mental Renewal. Shivering Touch however, is just bonkers.

[Runestar]

Not to mention that cha damage doesn't really do anything to the enemy until it reaches zero (save for a few specific scenarios such as sorcs). So in the 2-3 rounds it may take to accomplish this, he is still attacking your party unhindered in any way.

Daze is useful, but if he is failing his will save, why are you hitting him with some other power like dominate which not only removes him from combat, but adds him to your side?

So if you work on the assumption that the foe is always going to make his will save, the results don't seem so rosy all of a sudden.

I don't think ego whip is that great, just that stat damage is inherently problematic in that sense. Wizards were already 1-shotting animals with ray of stupidity. :smallconfused:


One way to make players not pick up certain spells and abilities is to say

"Anything you use I will too"

I doubt any player would pick up things like Shivering Touch or Ego Whip.

Players are generally in a better position to defend against any effects than npcs. For example, at higher lvs, a sorc can easily mindblank the entire party, while the DM would be hard-pressed to justify why every monster under the sun is suddenly able to access mindblank as a buff.

[Vknight]

And that is why we love it and care for it. Shivering Touch is like are favorite child except he was fused with Batman

[classy one]

Ego whip is great, but the fact that it is mind affecting does prevent it from becoming broken IMO.

[ericgrau]

So... the DM simply stops sending foes with minds unless they have a mind blank? Which is most of them. Heck you might as well take the animal section out of your monster manual. No one sees anything wrong with "hey, I just won't use most of the monsters as-is, no prob"?

Similar spells were fixed by making it a temporary ability score penalty that can't take the score below 1. Just do that. That's a lot easier than culling large portions of your monster manuals and taking the time to stat all of your foes with protections from various things that would otherwise end the fight.

[Kantolin]

Ego whip is a level 2 power which does 1d4(2.5) charisma damage, half(1.5?) on a failed save.

Assuming an 8 charisma unit, the power does daze, daze, daze, and then dazes and incapacitates the unit on four failed will saves.

That's moderately useful compared to second level spells. Compare it with glitterdust or Tasha's Hideous Laughter for similar will-or-you-lose-actions spells - those are generally better, although Ego Whip does have an effect on a failed save (Although then it'd take 6 uses to drop our 8 charisma half-orc baddie?)

If you spend four more power points on it, it becomes the equivalent expenditure (and save DC) of a 4th level power, that does 2d4(5) charisma damage, or half(2.5) on a failed save.

So that's two failed saves to drop that same 8-charisma half-orc, or four if they make them all (Although then they're not dazed and presumably hitting you with a greataxe). Compare confusion, or fear, or possibly charm monster and that's probably on the sub-par action (Especially since it does nothing to the half-orc until they all finish).

If you spend an additional four power points on it, it becomes the equivalent expenditure (and save DC) of a 6th level power. Then it does 3d4(7.5), so it still requires two uses to drop the same 8th charisma half-orc. To compare, by this point the wizard can do half a dozen 'Will save or die'.

So uh. I don't actaully see Ego Whip as terribly overpowered, unless I'm missing something.

[ericgrau]

Well at level 13 you empower double augment ego whip for 3d4x1.5 (11 average), save half. 2-3 turns will drop near anything even if they save. Often 1 turn will do it. By level 17 you can 1 shot some things even if they do save.

I can see why it could be a waste of time at lower levels, but even then some things like animals are vulnerable for no sensible reason. Basically your monster manual gets smaller and smaller as the PCs level, to the detriment of the game.

[Kantolin]

Well at level 13 you empower double augment ego whip for 3d4x1.5 (11 average), save half.

That's... that's the expenditure of a level 7 spell. That's forcecage, or insanity, or reverse gravity, or power word blind. Or finger of death. Three of those don't /have/ saves and do something the first round.

I mean, that's alright and all, but not sheer awesomeness. And the focus is really the incapacitation - at this point the wizard from a first level spell slot is doing 1d6+5 penalty to strength, which more things tend to use, and can maximize and empower it for the same level 7 spell slot if you want to turn any melee brute into nigh-useless... so it's certainly not the penalty.

I mean, you can then optimize ego whip, but you can optimize anything and wizards are better at being optimized. It can punish the enemy barbarian-or-wizard for dumping their charisma down to 6, though.


I can see why it could be a waste of time at lower levels, but even then some things like animals are vulnerable for no sensible reason.

I thought that was mostly int, not cha.


Basically your monster manual gets smaller and smaller as the PCs level, to the detriment of the game.

Interestingly, analyzing monsters that are not good with a CR of 12-14 on the srd, only Cryohydra and Collossal monstrous scorpion come out with a charisma of less than 10 (Cryohydra is 9, Monstrous Scorpion is then a noticable example with a 2). Quite a few things on the list have a moderate charisma, some have 20s or so.

So I dunno. I mean... by the time you're augmenting it up, you can run around dominating things which is a considerably more useful effect than killing them. Or I dunno, psychic crush them or something. As a fighter, over a given fight, I'd rather take some charisma damage than a huge strength penalty.

[Eurus]

Ego Whip is nastiest when boosted with metapsionics, just like Enervation is nastiest when metamagicked up. It's not that either one isn't useful without metawhatever, it's just that empowering/maximizing/twinning or whatever is what usually pushes it into ridiculous.

[Kantolin]

I don't know if that's true, due to the way cost increases works for psionics. If you empower an ego whip, you're basically spending the same amount of points as a level +1 spell, and psionics have less reducers than magic, it costs your psionic focus, and if you're hyperoptimizing it... you could probably hyperoptimize something else?

I mean, I suppose it's alright enough, but spells kind of have it beaten up handily.

Once you get to level 13 and can start empowering up your ego whip, you can use the same amounts of power points and just use decerebrate or augment up a dominate or psychic crush or something. A 7th level spell or power that is 'Will save or die' is not exactly difficult to find.