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Sims
2011-02-26, 03:39 PM
When I DM this month, which should I sick on my (foolish) adventurers.

Psyren
2011-02-26, 03:41 PM
If you're just asking which one is stronger, I think balors have the edge.

There's a lot of other factors that go into picking one or the other though, most important of which would be the alignment of your bbeg.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 03:44 PM
Also do you want it 1guy against all the adventures or do you want it to be 1guy and his hordes of minions

Silus
2011-02-26, 03:44 PM
Though I prefer Devils over Demons, I'm thinking a Balor would be better. They explode when they die =3

Sims
2011-02-26, 03:45 PM
Good questions. I'm thinking I'll go with 1 main monster, and 2-3 minions.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-26, 03:45 PM
Ahh yes, I often ask myself the same thing.

I guess I'm leaning slightly towards pit fiend. They're both good at giving warm hugs, but I think pit fiends are just a little bit sexier, with their spell-likes and poison and all. On the other hand though, I'd say balors are just a little more likely to kill someone (or several people) if that's what you're after.

Edit: Also Pit Fiends have higher spell resistance and regeneration, while Balors don't get any kind of healing ability, though on the other hand, Balors get constant true seeing, which might make the difference, depending on how annoying your players are.

Eldan
2011-02-26, 04:00 PM
In the end, it mostly comes down to style. Pit Fiends will need a good reason to engage the party in open conflict if there's any chance they could actually lose. Balors might just go with "I was pissed".

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-26, 04:04 PM
Sweet Umberlee! Did anyone notice the massive weight difference between the two? They're both about 12 feet tall on average, but the balor is 4,500 lbs while the pit fiend is 800 lbs. :smallconfused:

Vknight
2011-02-26, 04:11 PM
Yup well Balors are fat.
That would be a great Motivational Poster actually!

RndmNumGen
2011-02-26, 04:38 PM
Yup well Balors are fat.
That would be a great Motivational Poster actually!

Interesting thing is while balors and pit fiends have the same foot speed, balors are 50% faster when flying and have better maneuverability...?

How do you become faster and more nimble by weighing more?

Vknight
2011-02-26, 05:03 PM
You've got to think like a writter there. If you ever have the time go to tvtropes and look up tropes dealing with mentors.

Psyren
2011-02-26, 05:51 PM
How do you become faster and more nimble by weighing more?

By falling everywhere :smalltongue:

Seriously though, Balors are awesome.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 05:53 PM
Well we all know that after all they wouldn't have been a threat otherwise.

Mordokai
2011-02-26, 05:54 PM
Sweet Umberlee! Did anyone notice the massive weight difference between the two? They're both about 12 feet tall on average, but the balor is 4,500 lbs while the pit fiend is 800 lbs. :smallconfused:

That's ego for you :smalltongue:

Eldan
2011-02-26, 05:55 PM
It's all muscle, that's why they are faster :smalltongue:

Or chaotic people think that heavy things are more threatening when flying, while lawful people know a bit about natural laws and anatomy.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 05:58 PM
Actually the muscle thing plus chaos makes perfect sense.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-26, 06:00 PM
It's all muscle, that's why they are faster :smalltongue:


Hm, and yet somehow pit fiends are stronger...:smalleek:

Vknight
2011-02-26, 06:03 PM
It's DBZ logic!!
Think about it!
Vegeta and Trunks can increase there power by becoming more muscular but there speed suffered.
Goku found out how to increase your power beyond those levels and it involved keeping your myscles small.

Grendus
2011-02-26, 06:07 PM
Pit fiends are stronger because they're more disciplined, that's how the devils, with limited numbers, keep the infinite hoards of the abyss at bay (seriously, Asmodeus is a badass). Balors, while intelligent, lack the tactical savvy of the generals of hell. That's why, as Eldan put it, the Pit Fiend would need a damn good reason to attack the party. Losing to mortals on the prime material could net a demotion. Losing to anybody in Baator would result in permanent death. Better to spend a few dozen disposable minions to kill the heroes, which could easily result in a commendation if they were champions of anything not lawful evil. Especially if he could engage the heroes on another plane, where he would get his minions back if they die.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 06:13 PM
So we all agree Balor makes more sense but {it Fiend would be more awesome

Devmaar
2011-02-26, 06:35 PM
Its worth remembering that a Balor can still TPK if your players defeat it. Some people won't like that.

starwoof
2011-02-26, 06:41 PM
Its worth remembering that a Balor can still TPK if your players defeat it. Some people won't like that.

But we will. You can come here and tell us about it and we'll all have a good laugh and a drink. Balors are radical. Watch The Fellowship of the Ring and tell me you don't want to use a Balor sometime.

Beelzebub1111
2011-02-26, 07:10 PM
Balor follow godzilla logic with their weight. Something that big and powerful has to be denser to sustain itself.

Psyren
2011-02-26, 07:13 PM
chaos makes perfect sense.

Variable-speed corn muffins!

Vknight
2011-02-26, 07:14 PM
Yeah the explosion may be a problem my players continue to whin when that once happened to them saying it was not fair and endlessly complained about it.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-26, 07:18 PM
Klurichir.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 07:19 PM
Klurichir.

Pardon me but what does that mean?

boomwolf
2011-02-26, 07:21 PM
Unless they met lower-level explosive demons before that (even if homebrewed)

Then the characters should KNOW that dying demons are risky to be near.

Murdim
2011-02-26, 07:21 PM
Yup well Balors are fat.
That, and Pit Fiends are awfully thin. According to the square-cube law, 800 pounds for 12 feet is like 100 pounds (800/2^3, 45 kg) for 6 feet (12/2^1, 183 cm), while the Balor's 4500 lbs for 12 ft is like 562,5 lbs (255 kg) for 6 feet.

Hypothesis #1 : Pit fiends as we see them are actually hollow husks, animated by magic and controlled from the inside by the damned soul of a wizard who tried to bring the Tippyverse in his setting.

Hypothesis #2 : Wizard !

CycloneJoker
2011-02-26, 07:24 PM
Pardon me but what does that mean?

Fiend Folio, page 48.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 07:25 PM
Or he is just buff and skinny. Which is highly likely.
Pit Fiends can be athletic in the soccer or runner sense.

starwoof
2011-02-26, 07:31 PM
Pardon me but what does that mean?

Klurichir.


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l121/starwoof2/klurichir.png

Its the BA king of non-unique demons from the fiend folio.

Murdim
2011-02-26, 07:43 PM
Or he is just buff and skinny. Which is highly likely.
Pit Fiends can be athletic in the soccer or runner sense.
A human being who weights 100 pounds for 6 feet is morbidly underweight. Think less "wiry athlete", and more "haute couture model". Now, take into account the fact that in addition to the usual humanoid features, a pit fiend has horns, leathery wings, a tail, and a scaly, very thick-looking skin.

Yeah. Definitely a wizard.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 07:55 PM
Don't forget he is 12ft tall and 800pounds so even with correct math the spread will still be different.
But I will concede.

Also I really need to go through my 3.5stuff and take a breack from 4e. I cannot remeber anything.

starwoof
2011-02-26, 07:57 PM
I think the important thing to remember about pit fiends is that they are outsiders, and therefore don't have to make any sense physiologically.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 08:00 PM
That too so they can be as improbable as Cuthulhu!

Eldan
2011-02-26, 08:07 PM
Not quite. They have to have at least an exterior people can believe in.

ffone
2011-02-26, 08:10 PM
Pit Fiends' bodies are partially filled with that fictional gas ('tistinian' or something) that makes beholders able to float/fly nonmagically?

Vknight
2011-02-26, 08:28 PM
Makes perfect sense! Which is why there evil is gives you gas!

starwoof
2011-02-26, 08:30 PM
I knew pit fiends were always full of hot air.

Vknight
2011-02-26, 08:39 PM
No. Bad starwoof, go to the corner and think about what you have done.

Mayhem
2011-02-27, 04:31 AM
No. Bad starwoof, go to the corner and think about what you have done.

For some reason that struck me as absurdly funny :smalltongue:

Pitfiends make perfect evil masterminds/starscreams, whereas Balors are more fun to fight. I guess it comes down to what role the fiend will play in your campaign.

The Deej
2011-02-27, 08:30 AM
Pitfiends make perfect evil masterminds/starscreams, whereas Balors are more fun to fight. I guess it comes down to what role the fiend will play in your campaign.

+1

Also something to consider: How easy of access does your party have to good-aligned weapons/magical effects? That's the biggest mitigator of either one's defenses (especially the Pit fiend's regeneration).

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-27, 09:41 AM
It's DBZ logic!!
Think about it!
Vegeta and Trunks can increase there power by becoming more muscular but there speed suffered.
Goku found out how to increase your power beyond those levels and it involved keeping your myscles small.

Actually, Vegeta was the one who dissed Trunks for slowing himself down with all that bulkiness. Goku and Gohan weren't even there because they were still training.

That part didn't really make much sense, though. I don't remember 100% Frieza having much trouble when he became super buff.

/dbz nerd

blazingshadow
2011-02-27, 12:47 PM
frieza was smaller than most ppl (like vegeta) so he could take a hit on speed and still be more nimble than his usually taller opponents

balors are that heavy because their diet includes lots of nitroglycerin.

as for the original question why not have a pit fiend with a balor merc serving under him? i heard somewhere that things like that actually happen in that blood war thing they have

Warlawk
2011-02-27, 03:22 PM
as for the original question why not have a pit fiend with a balor merc serving under him? i heard somewhere that things like that actually happen in that blood war thing they have

Considering the entire point of the blood war is those two factions trying to destroy each other utterly, and has been going on for all time beyond rhyme or reasons... I'm just not buying that one. I admit I'm not terribly well versed in the blood war specifics, but that just doesn't seem terribly plausible to me.

As for the OP, it has already been stated in the thread you need to decide if the calculating lawful evil of devils fits the situation better or the raw chaos of demons. With a demon you can just kind of randomly drop the thing in and it isn't a huge deal. Generally speaking with a devil you need a reason for it to be there. It needs to have a plan and a goal, they don't just randomly show up to kill things, they have reasons to be where they are.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 03:30 PM
Fall-from-Grace, a succubus, was mentioned to have been sold into slavery to the Baatezu in the Savage Tide campaign. Since that can be used as a story arc in any campaign world, I assume that can be used as precedent.

Still, blazingshadow was likely referencing the Yugoloths unwittingly.

Eldan
2011-02-27, 03:33 PM
Fall-from-Grace was in Savage Tide?

Huh. That suddenly makes me want to buy an adventure module.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 03:38 PM
Fall-from-Grace was in Savage Tide?

Huh. That suddenly makes me want to buy an adventure module.

No, she was only briefly mentioned, as part of a list of despicable things her mother, Red Shroud, did.

Vknight
2011-02-27, 03:53 PM
Actually, Vegeta was the one who dissed Trunks for slowing himself down with all that bulkiness. Goku and Gohan weren't even there because they were still training.

That part didn't really make much sense, though. I don't remember 100% Frieza having much trouble when he became super buff.

/dbz nerd

Except Vegeta tried the same thing. True because Goku was training Gohan how to not bulk ourself up but instead use that energy to go beyond the beyond.

Freize actually was slower but thanks to his primary thing before hand being speed he did not suffer as badly.
----------------

Yeah Savage Tide only has a breif mention nothing to actviely buy it for that reason.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-27, 04:45 PM
Except Vegeta tried the same thing. True because Goku was training Gohan how to not bulk ourself up but instead use that energy to go beyond the beyond.

Freize actually was slower but thanks to his primary thing before hand being speed he did not suffer as badly.

Vegeta bulked up some, but he didn't go overboard like Trunks did. Trunks thought he had surpassed Vegeta with that form, but really Vegeta had thought of it and realized it was a bad idea. Because Trunks is dumb.

nedz
2011-02-27, 05:02 PM
CR 25 and scares Balors - apparently.

Ed Klurichir.
I really must read the whole thread before posting :smallredface:

Warlawk
2011-02-27, 05:06 PM
I wasn't aware that DBZ had any balors or pit fiends featured in the series. How about taking that discussion elsewhere.


Fall-from-Grace, a succubus, was mentioned to have been sold into slavery to the Baatezu in the Savage Tide campaign. Since that can be used as a story arc in any campaign world, I assume that can be used as precedent.

Still, blazingshadow was likely referencing the Yugoloths unwittingly.

Yeah, possible. Was going to say that keeping an enemy as a slave is a far cry from mercenary work. Not really the same thing at all. I could see either side keeping the other as a slave likely involving a lot of torture and less savory things, but mercenary work just doesn't sit right in that context for me. Generally speaking, these beings are the physical embodiment of the extremes they represent. In regards to the polar opposite that is the antithesis of their existence they aren't likely to be terribly reasonable or accepting.

Mordokai
2011-02-27, 05:13 PM
Fall-from-Grace was in Savage Tide?

Huh. That suddenly makes me want to buy an adventure module.

It isn't more than a line of her being mentioned. Her mother plays much bigger role in the said adventure. I guess with enough searching you could come to some information about their relationship, which would possibly be interesting. But I also imagine that you, as somebody who's well versed in Planescape, would know much more about Fall-from-Grace than any adventure path could ever teach you.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:20 PM
It isn't more than a line of her being mentioned. Her mother plays much bigger role in the said adventure. I guess with enough searching you could come to some information about their relationship, which would possibly be interesting. But I also imagine that you, as somebody who's well versed in Planescape, would know much more about Fall-from-Grace than any adventure path could ever teach you.

Red Shroud fears that her children will one day plot against her as she did against her mother, Malcanthet. As a result, she sells her children to the Baatezu to prevent that risk. If any of them escape, she hires demons to kill them in the most brutal way possible. I bet the relationship between Red Shroud and Fall-From-Grace isn't very good. :smalltongue:

... What? I'm interested in how creatures of pure chaotic evilness are capable of politics.

Mordokai
2011-02-27, 05:27 PM
You know, despite the chaoticness(is that even a word?) that demons are renowned for, they do show a great talent for politics and scheming, which is usually associated with devils. One has to ask himself, are they only putting on a show? :smalltongue:

And yeah, that their relationship isn't a stelar one is a given. But there are always details. And those are usually worth knowing and exploring :smallbiggrin:

Yora
2011-02-27, 05:31 PM
Well, demons are chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:34 PM
Well, demons are chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid.

I agree, even if several members of the board don't. Which is why I find it interesting, and useful in arguments about how demons are incapable of being anything more than encounter fodder.

Dalek-K
2011-02-27, 05:36 PM
Why are you choosing between them?

Make it a competition between a Balor and Pit Fiend to see who can kill the party first...

Then at the end it will be Pit Fiend and Balor fighting your party and however kills the most party members wins their competition :D

Yes I'm a bit evil to my players (but they loved it)

Mordokai
2011-02-27, 05:36 PM
Well, demons are chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid.

A lot of canon doesn't support that.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:39 PM
A lot of canon doesn't support that.

Really? I find that a lot of canon supports it.

Graz'zt
Malcanthet
Red Shroud
Demogorgon
Azuvidexus
Orcus
Pazuzu

All have their own goals, plans, and strategies. You're thinking of the idiots, Baphomet and Yeenoghu. :smalltongue:

Mordokai
2011-02-27, 05:42 PM
And in the end, a random deus-ex machine crumbles everything into one demon lord fighting another :smalltongue: A lot of good that 26 INT does to you if gods(read, game designers) have it out for you from the very beggining because of your very nature.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:44 PM
To be fair, though, Graz'zt is trying to make an alliance between demon- and devil-kind. He realizes that if they stopped acting like morons and worked together, they could slaughter the celestials. Fortunately, he has to conquer a billion demonlords to unify them before that happens.

*.*.*.*
2011-02-27, 05:51 PM
Make a half-pitfiend balor or vice versa?

Sounds fun...

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:54 PM
There's an app for that! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)(TM)

hamishspence
2011-02-27, 05:57 PM
To be fair, though, Graz'zt is trying to make an alliance between demon- and devil-kind. He realizes that if they stopped acting like morons and worked together, they could slaughter the celestials. Fortunately, he has to conquer a billion demonlords to unify them before that happens.

Is that in the Demonomicon: Grazzt online issue of Dragon?

In Fiendish Codex 2, Asmodeus has a plan for a deal with the demons- to occur after he's healed himself.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:59 PM
Don't know the exact source, but it is mentioned as his ultimate goal on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graz%27zt#Graz.27zt.27s_Goals).

That, however, is very interesting.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-27, 06:04 PM
A lot of canon doesn't support that.

There are several major demonic cities; you can't have a city where everyone is dead.

hamishspence
2011-02-27, 06:08 PM
Don't know the exact source, but iy is mentioned as his ultimate goal on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graz%27zt#Graz.27zt.27s_Goals).

After a quick look- yes, it was Demonomicon: Graz'zt:


Yet Graz'zt does have one central goal in mind, and this primary goal drives all other goals and all other plans, including his eternal war against Demogorgon for the role of Prince of Demons and his plot to absorb a Material Plane world into the Abyss. This goal is nothing less than uniting all the fiends of the Lower Planes (not just the Abyss) and leading them in an unthinkable army into the Upper Planes to raze them to the very foundations of the multiverse. Every one of Graz'zt's plans, in some way or another, takes him one infinitesimal step closer to this unthinkable goal.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-27, 06:52 PM
A lot of canon doesn't support that.

Well, yes, and while we're in the canon world, I'd like to point out how Abaddon? He is supposed to be a super genius with enough power to destroy the galaxy, and yet is always stopped on Cadia. This is his, what, thirteenth try? The Nightbringer should be able to destroy planets, yet he dies to enough STR 8+ hits. Skarbrand! Destroyer of worlds, one of the Cob God's champions. Sucks. HARD. Ogres. Supposed to be near-unkillable, and HUGELY powerful, and yet kinda suck, except for their 3 attacks. Really, even Black Orcs are as strong as them, and they have Weapon Skill "I suck."

And other people beat me to the demon lords.

Mastikator
2011-02-27, 07:13 PM
Well, demons are chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid.

Not having a long term goal and being stupid are two different things. Whoever decided that demons have to be exactly like devils in their behavior kind of invalidated the whole lawful/chaotic alignment axis.
I'm not saying demons aren't like you say they are, mind you.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-27, 07:18 PM
Not having a long term goal and being stupid are two different things. Whoever decided that demons have to be exactly like devils in their behavior kind of invalidated the whole lawful/chaotic alignment axis.

Fine, think about it more like the Pit Fiend (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster) and the Klurichir and/or Balor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard). That said, I prefer the Balor, and think they are cooler.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-28, 01:46 AM
Use a halfdragon Myrmyxicus! That will show them :D

Scarlet-Devil
2011-02-28, 01:55 AM
Use a halfdragon Myrmyxicus! That will show them :D

Seconded. Have fun describing that :smallwink:.

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-28, 11:28 AM
Seconded. Have fun describing that :smallwink:.

It's umm, a dragon-skulled, dragon-winged, four-armed lamprey-tail with 8 waist tentacles. Done.:smalltongue:

Tvtyrant
2011-02-28, 11:51 AM
It's umm, a dragon-skulled, dragon-winged, four-armed lamprey-tail with 8 waist tentacles. Done.:smalltongue:

And a mouth at the end of its tail that looks like a giant worm! But think of describing it as it flies towards the party with March of the Valkyries playing in the background "You see a black shadow grow across the horizon as it approaches, its 14 limbs churning against the setting sun. It gives a primordial roar as the light gleams off of its 4 gargantuan scythes. Roll for initiative"

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-28, 02:10 PM
It's umm, a dragon-skulled, dragon-winged, four-armed lamprey-tail with 8 waist tentacles. Done.:smalltongue:

It's a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people-eater. :smallbiggrin:

Scorpions__
2011-02-28, 02:23 PM
Klurichir.

Klurichir's got pwned by revision-fu. Fiendish Codex I revised their challenge rating down from 25 to just 17 if I recall correctly.

I never liked the idea of any run-of-the-mill demon being stronger than the balor anyways.





DM[F]R

CycloneJoker
2011-02-28, 06:10 PM
Klurichir's got pwned by revision-fu. Fiendish Codex I revised their challenge rating down from 25 to just 17 if I recall correctly.

I never liked the idea of any run-of-the-mill demon being stronger than the balor anyways.





DM[F]R

I kinda agree, but I'd have rather them made Balors stronger, rather than weakening the Klurichir.

Runestar
2011-02-28, 09:33 PM
The klurichur suffers from being designed with 3e mentality, so it would be stronger compared to a 3e balor, but noticeably weaker than a revised 3.5e balor. Basically, it has too few HD and SLA glut.

It's statblock is also a mess, especially its vorpal pincers and how it interacts with its normal attack routine.

If you want to revise it to 3.5 design philosophy, probably advance it to 30HD and scrap the lower lv SLAs/sorc spellcasting, putting it on par with many of the demon prince aspects in fiendish codex.

Cr is probably 23-24, midway between a balor and infernal. :smallsmile:

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-28, 09:44 PM
And a mouth at the end of its tail that looks like a giant worm!

That was covered by the "lamprey tail", albeit subtly.:smallwink:

Sims
2011-02-28, 10:49 PM
What would be the stats of a Half Balor, Half Pit Fiend? I wanna copy it! It sounds great!

The Glyphstone
2011-02-28, 10:50 PM
What would be the stats of a Half Balor, Half Pit Fiend? I wanna copy it! It sounds great!

That depends on if it's a Half-Pit Fiend Balor or a Half-Balor Pit Fiend. They will be very different monsters, unfortunately.

Sims
2011-02-28, 11:02 PM
That depends on if it's a Half-Pit Fiend Balor or a Half-Balor Pit Fiend. They will be very different monsters, unfortunately.

I'd go with the Half Pit Fiend Balor.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-28, 11:08 PM
Well, take a Balor, and add the Variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) template as per the instructions, for a Pit Fiend.