Ungodly Ability Scores [3.5]

[dark.sun.druid]

So, I've noticed that there are ways to "break the game" and achieve ability scores that rival and the ability scores of gods, and sometimes even put them to shame.

Consider this example. Supposing that a player wanted to focus on Strength. The first thing they would do would be to put their highest ability score into Strength. Let's assume that they rolled a 18 as their highest ability score. Now, say they take a race that provides a great bonus to Strength. The one that comes to mind (from personal experience) is Sea Hag, which gives a total of +6 to Strength over 8 levels.

So now, we have an 8th level character with 26 Strength (I'm assuming all bonus ability score points gained every four levels are going into Strength, as we are trying to achieve the highest possible score; we have +2 so far).

At this level, the character has 2 feats, so for our purposes let's say the player was planning ahead, and got the Power Attack and Cleave feats, and so now qualifies for the War Hulk prestige class (in the Miniatures Handbook). This class gives the character access to +2 Strength every level. By the 10th level of the class, that's +20 Strength, and so the character has a total of 48 Strength by 18th level (+20 from the Prestige Class and +2 from normal bonuses).

This is compounded by several facts.

First of all, a character could probably gain +6 Strength from a +6 Belt of Giant's Strength without too much trouble by this level.
Secondly, there is a method for making characters who can start out with ability scores higher than 18. I believe these are called elite characters (if someone can find me the book/page that details how to do this, I would appreciate it greatly). This would allow a player to create a character with a much higher Strength score than is shown above.
There is a feat in the Epic Level Handbook which allows characters to ad 1 point to Strength, which can be taken multiple times, allowing players to add to Strength at every 3rd and 4th level after 20.


I personally have a character who I believe I will be able to get to 60 Strength by level 24, without spending the feats to increase this number, after having spend 5 levels on Barbarian when I didn't need to (if I hadn't I would have been able to reach 60 much sooner), and without any magical bonuses.

Some people might call this optimization, and some people might call this ludicrous. I'm just curious to know your opinion on the subject, and whether or not you think it should be addressed.

Also, as a note, the highest ability score I've ever seen on a deity is 50. Several gods have 50s, including Talos who has 50 STR (for comparison to the example above).

[Sinpoder]

Well...... Personaly most DMs would not allow a Sea Hag to be in there game as a player character, at least my DM has never allowed it in the 5 years I have been playing with him and I must say that a 60 Str is good but if you are looking for a way to beat a character like this all I have to say is..

Spam Save or Die spells or send greater shadows after his ass. If the character has focused completely on str. then he most likely has a low fort reflex and will....

[Ganurath]

It'd be more efficient to go with an Orc who took three levels in Orc Paragon, free up five levels for more material to make use of that strength or a template that provides a Strength boost. Half-Dragon provides +8 Strength for LA +3, for example. Of course, one has to make a case for a Half-Dragon Orc Paragon... Perhaps spurning his draconic blood for distancing the character from Gruumsh?

[Frog Dragon]

For starters, Half Minotaur Water Orc is a much better way of getting insane Str, at less cost. And it's not really a problem in high optimization games. Wooo... I have Str 50... while the wizard is breaking the world in half an action. Being able to spend all your resources to become absurdly specialized in a physical ability score is not really a problem.

[dark.sun.druid]

All good points. And yes, there are other ways to get a high score, likely an even higher score than detailed above (for example with the Lolth-Touched template), but I was just trying to show that it can be done. If you're really careful with your planning and are making a character with a higher starting ECL than 1 - which would allow you to use inherited templates that add to an ability score - you could probably break the 70 mark.

And also, I was just using Strength as an example. I agree that a wizard with 60 INT could very well end up being much more devastating than a fighter with 60 STR. Mental scores are harder to optimize this way, however they're not very much harder.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, acording to the PHB "Divine" ability scores start around 24 IIRC. So, it's ludicrously easy to get a "Divine" score even without shenanigans.

[Vknight]

Here is my personal favorite.

Half Dragon, Troll.
You have no negatives. 7Monstrous HD, and 9LA. For a +22Str, +14Con.

If you start at high enough level you can buy off most of the LA.
There are better builds but this is my favorite.

[dark.sun.druid]

Here is my personal favorite.

Half Dragon, Troll.
You have no negatives. 7Monstrous HD, and 9LA. For a +22Str, +14Con.

If you start at high enough level you can buy off most of the LA.
There are better builds but this is my favorite.

I like that. The game I'm in now is run at ECL 9, so that would just make it in, although I would need to start without a class level.

I tend to prefer the Dragonspawn templates from the Dragonlance campaign to Half-Dragon, as the breath weapon is usable every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day. However, I don't know whether or not it is a more efficient build for trying to build up an ability score.

[Chilingsworth]

I like that. The game I'm in now is run at ECL 9, so that would just make it in, although I would need to start without a class level.

No, you wouldn't. 7 Monstous HD + 9 Level Adjustment = 16 ECL. Even without a character level.

[Vknight]

Well what is the Str bonus. Man I've been playing 4e to much don't remeber barely anything.

Also don't worry about the whole Lvl problems just spend XP. Also you DM may be willing to sell off Monstrous HD as well at a larger cost.

[The Dark Fiddler]

My favorite way to get a high Strength will always be Cancer Mage (take no negatives from diseases) plus Festering Anger (increases your Strength but with a nasty negative). You no longer take the negatives from Festering Anger, so just sit and stew for a few years. Combine with something that has no maximum age or can become young again (0 LA Elans from XPH, for example), and you can literally sit forever. Cost: about six levels, a lot of time, and several concussions from all the books you get thrown at you.

[Private-Prinny]

My favorite way to get a high Strength will always be Cancer Mage (take no negatives from diseases) plus Festering Anger (increases your Strength but with a nasty negative). You no longer take the negatives from Festering Anger, so just sit and stew for a few years. Combine with something that has no maximum age or can become young again (0 LA Elans from XPH, for example), and you can literally sit forever. Cost: about six levels, a lot of time, and several concussions from all the books you get thrown at you.

Except that the BoVD never actually spells out what "ill effects of diseases" actually are. I could say that the uncontrollable anger is the fantastic part and the +2 Str every day is an "ill effect". The Cancer Mage "trick" isn't RAW, it's Rules as I Say & You Can't Prove Me Wrong, but RISYCPMW doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

[starwoof]

My favorite way to get a high Strength will always be Cancer Mage (take no negatives from diseases) plus Festering Anger (increases your Strength but with a nasty negative). You no longer take the negatives from Festering Anger, so just sit and stew for a few years. Combine with something that has no maximum age or can become young again (0 LA Elans from XPH, for example), and you can literally sit forever. Cost: about six levels, a lot of time, and several concussions from all the books you get thrown at you.

I've heard of Cancer Mage and Festering Anger a LOT lately. What books are they in?

[Vknight]

There apart of Vile Darkness.

[Stallion]

War Hulk/Primeval half minotaur goliath in dire lion shape. With VoP, you'll get about 72-74 str. With Wild gear that continues to enhance your strength in shape...... well damn.

[Vknight]

What level are you then?

[Ashram]

I've heard of Cancer Mage and Festering Anger a LOT lately. What books are they in?

Book of Vile Darkness.

[TroubleBrewing]

I like that. The game I'm in now is run at ECL 9, so that would just make it in, although I would need to start without a class level.


No. You'd need to be at least ECL 16. LA 9, 7HD. 9+7=16.

EDIT: wow, ninja'd a while ago. I should really read through the whole thread...

[Vknight]

It's not that bad
McBrannert you and Ashram have been ninja'd.

Also I got ninja'd by a mod not to long ago.

Also yes yes your should read through the topic first.

[Runestar]

The better question is: What exactly can a character with such a high str do?

The damage isn't really stellar. With 50str, you are just getting +30 to damage on hits. At a time when foes are averaging hp in the thousands. I am assuming you use divine power or something to negate the lost bab from warhulk as well.

You can throw lead rocks, but the problem is more with the broken damage tables in complete warrior and hulking hurler.

IMO, it just looks good on paper.:smallannoyed:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Except that the BoVD never actually spells out what "ill effects of diseases" actually are. I could say that the uncontrollable anger is the fantastic part and the +2 Str every day is an "ill effect". The Cancer Mage "trick" isn't RAW, it's Rules as I Say & You Can't Prove Me Wrong, but RISYCPMW doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

Hmm... could have sworn it specified negative effects. Oh well, no same DM would have allowed it in a normal game even if it was RAW.

[Vknight]

No it's not only good on paper it looks good when your character lifts the house and throws it at people.
Also your character has a secondary big purpose. 'Mountain something' feat lets your damage from an attack become a fort save or the target takes several nasty side effect.

[FMArthur]

Here is my personal favorite.

Half Dragon, Troll.
You have no negatives. 7Monstrous HD, and 9LA. For a +22Str, +14Con.

If you start at high enough level you can buy off most of the LA.
There are better builds but this is my favorite.

I've never even heard of someone playing at the super-high-epic levels required to buy off most of a +9 level adjustment. :smallconfused:

[Vknight]

Not required to but if the game is ECL 16 then you can probably buy off a few of the LA's at the begining.
I did not say you had to

[Siosilvar]

Not required to but if the game is ECL 16 then you can probably buy off a few of the LA's at the begining.
I did not say you had to

Following the pattern, you'd need at least 27 class levels to buy off the first point of LA. 51 for the second point.

[starwoof]

Book of Vile Darkness.

Sigh, I knew I'd need that book someday.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Sigh, I knew I'd need that book someday.

Some of the stuff in it makes the book worthwhile simply for the "What the hell?" factor. Examples being Lich Loved and Willing Deformity: Obesity, both feats.

[Alleine]

Hmm... could have sworn it specified negative effects. Oh well, no same DM would have allowed it in a normal game even if it was RAW.

You realize cancer mage is unnecessary? The disease deals ability score damage, which can easily be healed if you're a binder 1, or have a buddy with lesser restoration. Then the only downside is the anger issue, which to be honest isn't much of a downside.

[starwoof]

Some of the stuff in it makes the book worthwhile simply for the "What the hell?" factor. Examples being Lich Loved and Willing Deformity: Obesity, both feats.

*Starts to think about how his warforged could take Willing Deformity: Obesity*

Suddenly, I want this book.

[sreservoir]

Following the pattern, you'd need at least 27 class levels to buy off the first point of LA. 51 for the second point.

it's only level 135 when you get down to 0 LA. experience being a river, you'll catch up before you get over 9000.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

it's only level 135 when you get down to 0 LA. experience being a river, you'll catch up before you get over 9000.

Except the Wizard was over 9000 at level 20.

[Stallion]

What level are you then?

I was basing it on a level 20 character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Water Orc + Half-Minotaur + Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)-Goristro + Lolth-Touched, LA +6, 0 racial HD:

Huge size, Str +38, Dex -4, Con +26, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2, +12 natural armor, 2 two-handed slams, gore, immunity to fear, Half-Fiend traits (with DR/Good or Cold Iron and Levitate and Spider Climb among the spell-like abilities), Half-Minotaur traits, etc.

[Chilingsworth]

The better question is: What exactly can a character with such a high str do?

The damage isn't really stellar. With 50str, you are just getting +30 to damage on hits. At a time when foes are averaging hp in the thousands. I am assuming you use divine power or something to negate the lost bab from warhulk as well.

You can throw lead rocks, but the problem is more with the broken damage tables in complete warrior and hulking hurler.

IMO, it just looks good on paper.:smallannoyed:

Well, the best way to avoid the BAB hit is to only take warhulk levels after the 20th hit die. Then, you'll be getting epic attack progession anyway.

As for uses of massive strength, I'd say the best one is getting the ability to carry (or even more so, push/pull) MASSIVE loads. If you're just looking for damage, magic, sneak attacks,ToB classes and other such things are your best bets. Insane carrying capacity may be kinda useless alot of the time, but it can be pretty awe-inspiring if used right.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 'best' course of action for that kind of strength would probably be Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10 with Knock-Back, so limit yourself to no more than +4 LA total. Use the War Hulk's Sweeping Strike abilities to knock multiple opponents into a corner, then on every swing you Dungeoncrash the whole group against the wall.

[Draculmaulkee]

First of all, a character could probably gain +8 Strength from a +8 Belt of Giant's Strength without too much trouble by this level.



A small rules nitpick, but wouldn't it be pretty hard to get an epic enhancement item at 18th level?

[Vknight]

Following the pattern, you'd need at least 27 class levels to buy off the first point of LA. 51 for the second point.

Huh how why are you know what I better not ask.

[CycloneJoker]

The better question is: What exactly can a character with such a high str do?

The damage isn't really stellar. With 50str, you are just getting +30 to damage on hits. At a time when foes are averaging hp in the thousands. I am assuming you use divine power or something to negate the lost bab from warhulk as well.

You can throw lead rocks, but the problem is more with the broken damage tables in complete warrior and hulking hurler.

IMO, it just looks good on paper.:smallannoyed:

Be an Illumian, and have arbitrarily high spells-per-day, especially if you (ab)use Wedded to History, from that one Dragon.

[Vknight]

Cyclone this is all about Strengh abuse. Being a hercules or Adonus. Lifting homes carrying caravans being a titan effectively.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Cyclone this is all about Strengh abuse. Being a hercules or Adonus. Lifting homes carrying caravans being a titan effectively.

Yes, but I think his point is you can get your bonus spells to be keyed off of a physical ability score as an Illumian (I thought it was Dex, though) so you can get something useful out of your ridiculous score.

Actually, scratch that, not something useful, something awesome.

[CycloneJoker]

Cyclone this is all about Strengh abuse. Being a hercules or Adonus. Lifting homes carrying caravans being a titan effectively.

Aeshkrau sigil combo. You use your Strength for Spells-per-Day, instead of anything else.

[Vknight]

So you apply the templates then use strength to determie spells per day.
So we now have the most buff and over powered Wizard ever.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So you apply the templates then use strength to determie spells per day.
So we now have the most buff and over powered Wizard ever.

Trouble is, we've got a pretty hefty LA on these guys, and lots of lost caster levels. It would work in gestalt, though, if your DM was willing to let you take LA on one side of the gestalt.

And, on top of that, there's already a way to get nigh-infinite bonus spells per day - Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer.

[Stallion]

So you apply the templates then use strength to determie spells per day.
So we now have the most buff and over powered Wizard ever.

Eh. Not really. Part of the wizard's appeal is that their main stat allows them to boost spellcraft (very important) and any knowledge skill. Another one is the ridonkulous skill points this enables them to get.

[Coidzor]

Not required to but if the game is ECL 16 then you can probably buy off a few of the LA's at the begining.

Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). white text for links.


A small rules nitpick, but wouldn't it be pretty hard to get an epic enhancement item at 18th level?

Yep.

[dark.sun.druid]

No, you wouldn't. 7 Monstous HD + 9 Level Adjustment = 16 ECL. Even without a character level.


No. You'd need to be at least ECL 16. LA 9, 7HD. 9+7=16.

EDIT: wow, ninja'd a while ago. I should really read through the whole thread...

I was off, but not as off as much you all think. You can set up an advancement in the style of Savage Species, and work off those 7 HD as monster levels. That makes the ECL for the campaign only 10 to be able to play it.

Actually, you could probably get one level of advancement without HD, just that adds a feature (probably the last level of the progression) to get rid of one LA, making it fit into an ECL 9 campaign.

However, that does leave you with only 12 levels for progression in an actual class / prestige class. But, if you're willing to pay that price, it is a passable solution.

[FMArthur]

The Illumian ability to key spellcasting off of Strength (and Dexterity) is incredibly limited. It only affects the number of bonus spells you get, and nothing else. They still need their normal ability modifier to cast a spell at all and still need it for save DCs.

[CycloneJoker]

So you apply the templates then use strength to determie spells per day.
So we now have the most buff and over powered Wizard ever.

That's one of the best ideas I've heard. For ruining a wizard.

You take Wedded to History, so you're immortal, take a level of Cancer Mage, get Festering Rage, and wait for 500 years, and laugh as you have about 90,00-odd strength modifier, and have spells per day equal to about More than You, and tare the planet apart with your bare hands.

[Vknight]

I new my insanity would eventually pay off. I've created the most useless Wizard build ever!

[dark.sun.druid]

A small rules nitpick, but wouldn't it be pretty hard to get an epic enhancement item at 18th level?

Assuming you don't care about getting your weapons or armor enchanted, you could probably save up enough money by 18th level to buy it. I am by no means recommending this (enchantments are the way to go in my opinion), but I wasn't trying to optimize a character, I was trying to show that it is possible to get insanely high ability scores, much higher than those of Greater deities or really powerful monsters, like Hecatonchires. I never intended to actually make a character that played well or was practical (although I'm glad you all are having fun doing that anyway).

[Volthawk]

Well, a +8 Belt of Epic Strength costs 640k. WBL for level 20 is 760k, while WBL for level 19 is 508k. So, going by WBL, you'd only be able to buy it at level 20.

[dark.sun.druid]

Well, a +8 Belt of Epic Strength costs 640k. WBL for level 20 is 760k, while WBL for level 19 is 508k. So, going by WBL, you'd only be able to buy it at level 20.

Alright, you've got me. I didn't actually do the math out, I just guesstimated it. Turns out I was off. Oh well. Of course, there is a possibility you could get it, but I'll go change the first post to +6.

[Earl William]

Wow. A ridiculously munchkiny build using 20 books can break 3.5? Never say that coming.

[Vknight]

Not just break it split it in 2.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Wow. A ridiculously munchkiny build using 20 books can break 3.5? Never say that coming.

Again, this guy is nothing compared to a Level 20 Core-Only Wizard.

[Vknight]

So? It is still a awesomely cool idea.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So? It is still a awesomely cool idea.

Eh, with the build we're looking at, how many levels of Wizard/Sorc/Caster can we fit in? I mean, if we're doing the 135 level monstrosity, then we can fit in quite a few, but at more reasonable levels we're getting a large number of what? First level spells per day? Second, Third tops? I mean, at level 30 let's say?

I'm not saying it's not a cool idea. I'm not saying that it couldn't even be made to work, on a smaller scale, since boosting physical stats is easier than boosting mental stats. I'm just saying, with a 25 point buy, at level 20, a core only Wizard 20 is likely to have access to higher level spells, with similar bonus spells per day, than a templated-out Illumian.

[CycloneJoker]

Eh, with the build we're looking at, how many levels of Wizard/Sorc/Caster can we fit in? I mean, if we're doing the 135 level monstrosity, then we can fit in quite a few, but at more reasonable levels we're getting a large number of what? First level spells per day? Second, Third tops? I mean, at level 30 let's say?

I'm not saying it's not a cool idea. I'm not saying that it couldn't even be made to work, on a smaller scale, since boosting physical stats is easier than boosting mental stats. I'm just saying, with a 25 point buy, at level 20, a core only Wizard 20 is likely to have access to higher level spells, with similar bonus spells per day, than a templated-out Illumian.

Ignoring the terribad templates, a decent illumian could get more spells than any wizard, except MAYBE a tainted scholar.

[Daftendirekt]

I am assuming you use divine power or something to negate the lost bab from warhulk as well.

It's not really "lost". +2 str comes out to a +1 to hit, and you get +2 str every level. So, technically, it's full BAB, except when meeting feat prereqs. Having ANY base attack bonus on top of that would make it more broken than it already is. So, DP wouldn't "negate" it so much as just "make it a whole lot better"

[Vknight]

Exactlly but thats part of the fun. If the guy that just crushed the lions head then starts throwing Fireballs among other things people will run.

[Earl William]

Sorry if I came off mean, I thought you were complaining instead of enjoying yourselves:smallsigh:. Sorry.

[Vknight]

Sorry if I came off mean, I thought you were complaining instead of enjoying yourselves:smallsigh:. Sorry.

Never thought like that for a second Earl. Not even for a second buddy.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ignoring the terribad templates, a decent illumian could get more spells than any wizard, except MAYBE a tainted scholar.

How do you figure? I mean, you're making him MAD if you go the Illumian route, you just get to chose your MADness. I'd be interested to see the math on an Illumian 20th level character getting more spells per day than a Wiz 20, while still getting nines.

[Castiron]

I personally think that in the example a str score like that is fine,........

Keep in mind it was done by the rules,.. AND to do this the character pretty much had to forgo advancement in any other area.

it becomes a case of slow dumb and strong swings the club,.... but when the hold spell comes in hes in trouble.

[dark.sun.druid]

Let me give you this situation then, to stimulate some more conversation. This is what my character is right now, so I guarantee it's possible.

I'm in an ECL 9th campaign right now. My character started as a Sea Hag with one additional level in barbarian. I've leveled up to barbarian 5th. Now, my Will save is okay, and my Reflex save is better than average. My Fortitude save is the best right now, as should be expected. I currently have 37 Strength, and several other high ability scores (STR is by far the highest though). I have spent the skill points for literacy.

My attack bonus on my first attack with my current weapon is +27. I plan on prestiging to War Hulk next level. This will increase the damage on my weapon by 3 every two levels (two-handed weapon). I'm also large-sized, and I have monkey grip.

As you can see, I'm focused mostly on Strength, and while I'm not exceptional in any other area, I'm not severely deficient in any of them either (the one exception being CHA, which was my dump stat and is at 8). By 24th level, I should be able to punch a hole through most iron walls with relative ease, but my saves won't be very much below average. I will have a decent selection of feats (most of my feats at this point focus on sundering, so I can get rid of pesky distractions like magical weapons). With liberal application of magic weapons and armor, I can hold my own in battle against any spellcaster, and thoroughly destroy most other melee combatants.

[Vknight]

Now we see the power of Strength.

See with that High Strength along with 'Power Attack' and other things you can do massive damage, with crippling effects.

[Coidzor]

^: Warhulk limits the power of Power Attack by limiting the amount of BAB you can choose to put into it.


It's not really "lost". +2 str comes out to a +1 to hit, and you get +2 str every level. So, technically, it's full BAB, except when meeting feat prereqs. Having ANY base attack bonus on top of that would make it more broken than it already is. So, DP wouldn't "negate" it so much as just "make it a whole lot better"

BAB =/= your bonus to-hit. If you had, say, 4 BAB from being a level 8 wizard and then 10 levels of warhulk, and you started with a strength of, say, 10, you'd have a BAB of 4 and an attack bonus of +14 to hit.

+15 to hit from strength is not the same as having 3 iterative attacks from 15 BAB at 15/10/5.

[Runestar]

Say hi to my half-ogre cleric7/warhulk10 with persistent divine power. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Say hi to my half-ogre cleric7/warhulk10 with persistent divine power. :smallbiggrin:

Say hi to Miracle. Bye ECL 19 character that's not a threat.

[Tvtyrant]

Say hi to Miracle. Bye ECL 19 character that's not a threat.

Mate comparing any melee build to a full caster is going to have this effect. I don't see how that destroys his point that you can get around Hulking Hurler's problem.

[Coidzor]

Mate comparing any melee build to a full caster is going to have this effect. I don't see how that destroys his point that you can get around Hulking Hurler's problem.

Taking 7 levels of full caster and then flushing them down the toilet like that practically begs for the reminder.

Also, is not the Hulking Hurler. It's Warhulk and just Warhulk. They're not the same class.

[Brock Samson]

You're a 17th level Wu Jen/Cleric using Miracle/Other arcane spellcaster with Arcane Disciple (Luck Domain) for Miracle.

You spend no XP to cast Shapechange into a Pit Fiend (I think it's that, possibly a Balor) and get a strength score of something like 38 or so. You cast Giant Size (via Wu Jen or Miracle-ing it) to becomes Colossal and gain something like + 36(?) more to strength. Then you cast Bite of the Wearbear to gain +16 more enhancement bonus to strength. Begin the repeated castings of Girallion's Blessing and Fuse Arms for +omgwtf to your strength.

Splash in liberal applications of various methods of persistings. Be an Illumen to have basically unlimited numbers of Girallion's Blessings and Fuse Arms's. Yes, that strength is going to keep pumping.

Happy 90+ Strength Divine Powered 17th level character.
Love,
Me.

[Tvtyrant]

Taking 7 levels of full caster and then flushing them down the toilet like that practically begs for the reminder.

Also, is not the Hulking Hurler. It's Warhulk and just Warhulk. They're not the same class.

I totally brainglitched that one. :smallredface:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Now we see the power of Strength.

See with that High Strength along with 'Power Attack' and other things you can do massive damage, with crippling effects.

Ok, so you can hit things really hard, and fairly accurately. Is this better than being able to hit them hard enough, and having more tricks in your quiver? I don't see so much the power of Strength here, I see a one trick pony.

[nedz]

Doesn't War Hulk 1 have the No Time to Think feature ?
Wouldn't that stop your Wizard from Learning spells ?

[Vknight]

Ok, so you can hit things really hard, and fairly accurately. Is this better than being able to hit them hard enough, and having more tricks in your quiver? I don't see so much the power of Strength here, I see a one trick pony.

A one trick pony that if he acts before you will probably do horrible things to you.
A group of PC's verse 1-3of these guys.
PC's lose intiative.
These guys act.
Squishies die.

[Heliomance]

Well, with that high strength, you can be an awesome grapple-monkey. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=92492)
Or you could do it the caster way. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98333)

[faceroll]

For starters, Half Minotaur Water Orc is a much better way of getting insane Str, at less cost. And it's not really a problem in high optimization games. Wooo... I have Str 50... while the wizard is breaking the world in half an action. Being able to spend all your resources to become absurdly specialized in a physical ability score is not really a problem.

It's a huge problem. An ECL 2 half-minotaur water orc barbarian with extra rage, brutal thow and reckless rage has like 40 str. That is going to wipe anything level appropriate. The wizard isn't going to be any universe breaking stuff until considerably later in the game. Meanwhile, anything that can challenge the guy with 40 str is going to be able to one-shot most party members. The glass-cannon effect isn't just due to sacrificing defense for offense, but the reaction of the DM means harder monsters are going to be A LOT harder, more than just having extra HP (because to get extra HP, they get extra HD, which means better saves, BAB, feats), or dangerous abilities.


Well, with that high strength, you can be an awesome grapple-monkey. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=92492)
Or you could do it the caster way. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98333)

Tripping is about 1000x more useful than grappling until everything is untrippable. Grapple scales with BAB, which means you can outgrappled by a gray render zombie no problem at level 5. But with trip, that gray render is never going to be getting up.

[dgnslyr]

Well, if we're trying to accomplish something that ridiculous anyways, mind as well take the Lost Tradition feat from Bastards and Bloodlines, which is a 3rd party book. Lost Tradition lets you base all the spellcasting of one class on any attribute of your choice, which makes it even better than just being Illumian. Elan Cancer Mage with Festering Anger and Lost Tradition? Oh my. Oh my indeed.

Of course, that's a lot of trouble for a relatively unspectacular outcome, when compared to the likes of Pun-Pun.

[Lord.Sorasen]

War Hulk/Primeval half minotaur goliath in dire lion shape. With VoP, you'll get about 72-74 str. With Wild gear that continues to enhance your strength in shape...... well damn.


Half-Minotaur Water Orc, Lolth-Touched to gain what, +10 Strength for Lolth+water orc, and +10 for the half-minotaur, I believe... And large size, naturally. Put an 18 in strength and you have, at ECL 3, 38 strength.

Go 8 levels of anything with full BAB. Probably barbarian, for rage and the +4 strength is provides. Maybe bonus feat rogue to meet the reqs for...

Primeval! Now choose as your animal: Dire Polar Bear! Dire polar bear gives +28 to strength. So now we're at 66 strength, 70 if raging. I am certain there are good magic items to boost strength even further at this point.

I figure after this you can go war hulk for 9 levels, or keep doing with more and more primeval. The point is that's ridiculous.

Is it good? Not more so than the wizard. But it's still cool.

Just realized you also get a hilariously high constitution. Also I'm thinking 3 levels of orc paragon for an additional +2 strength.

[Stallion]

You can't choose Dire Polar Bear, as the limitations for Primeval shape is an 8 hitdie creature. The best of which for strength boosting is Dire Lion. Also, 2 warshaper would be a good investment as well, along with the Reckless Rage feat.

[calar]

Well now see if you played a Tarrasque that had PC levels and a +6 belt of giants strength... Coupled with the half dragon template and the War Hulk prestige class... Add a little more munchkiny magic and you got yourself a character with a strength well over 9000.

[Heliomance]

Tripping is about 1000x more useful than grappling until everything is untrippable. Grapple scales with BAB, which means you can outgrappled by a gray render zombie no problem at level 5. But with trip, that gray render is never going to be getting up.

Did you look at the build I linked? It's not getting out-grappled by anything. Ever.

Also, you can't stop something getting up. The AoO you get for something standing up can't be used to trip it back down again, because the AoO happens before the action it interrupts, at which point the enemy is still on the floor.

[9mm]

It's not really "lost". +2 str comes out to a +1 to hit, and you get +2 str every level. So, technically, it's full BAB, except when meeting feat prereqs. Having ANY base attack bonus on top of that would make it more broken than it already is. So, DP wouldn't "negate" it so much as just "make it a whole lot better"

meh, just use legacy champion and get BaB too.

[Lord.Sorasen]

^: Warhulk limits the power of Power Attack by limiting the amount of BAB you can choose to put into it.



BAB =/= your bonus to-hit. If you had, say, 4 BAB from being a level 8 wizard and then 10 levels of warhulk, and you started with a strength of, say, 10, you'd have a BAB of 4 and an attack bonus of +14 to hit.

+15 to hit from strength is not the same as having 3 iterative attacks from 15 BAB at 15/10/5.

But the warhulk can attack multiple targets per attack, which from time to time can be very similar to 3 attacks, maybe better given you get all of them at your full attack bonus. Plus with a BAB of +6/+1 you can hit all 3 targets twice. I know that's way more situational, but still.

[Stallion]

meh, just use legacy champion and get BaB too.

This. I fully agree.