Black Crusade

[Talkkno]

New 40k RPG woo, Chaos this time. I think this will be interesting for think there's room for Chaos "Good Guys" as I define more so the conflict between Chaos and the Imperium as more "Order vs freedom" sort of dichotomy, too bad not much 40k literature goes in that side and just makes chaos evil for the lulz...

Linky.
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2014

[SurlySeraph]

Yeah, I hope they go with more "Khorne gets annoyed when his followers kill helpless and unworthy people; Slaanesh likes normal love in addition to the acid-tentacle stuff; Tzeentch loves hope and creativity; Nurgle is a pretty nice guy" fluff. I expect they'll go with a nonstop barrage of grimdark evulz, but one can hope.

[blackjack217]

I think they change the fluff whenever one side is seen as slightly sympathetic. That side starts eating babies.

[starwoof]

Yeah, I hope they go with more "Khorne gets annoyed when his followers kill helpless and unworthy people; Slaanesh likes normal love in addition to the acid-tentacle stuff; Tzeentch loves hope and creativity; Nurgle is a pretty nice guy" fluff. I expect they'll go with a nonstop barrage of grimdark evulz, but one can hope.

This. These ideas haven't been seen in a book in so long most people aren't even aware of their existence. And then they call me crazy for talking about how khornates aren't just mindless slaughterbots. :smallannoyed:

[Lycan 01]

Yeah, I hope they go with more "Khorne gets annoyed when his followers kill helpless and unworthy people; Slaanesh likes normal love in addition to the acid-tentacle stuff; Tzeentch loves hope and creativity; Nurgle is a pretty nice guy" fluff. I expect they'll go with a nonstop barrage of grimdark evulz, but one can hope.

I knew Khorne prefers worthy warriors as sacrifices, and knew Nurgle actually cares about his followers. But I didn't know Slaneesh liked normal affection, since I though he/she/it preferred excess, hence the name Prince of Excess. :smalltongue: And I honestly had no idea Tzeentch liked hope. I knew he liked creativity, but usually in a warped and twisted way where the artist goes insane in the end... :smallconfused:


Oh, right, Black Crusade. Um, WANT. :biggrin:

[Talkkno]

But I didn't know Slaneesh liked normal affection, since I though he/she/it preferred excess,
Slaneesh is also the Prince of Pleasure, and what more can said but simply contentment and affection is perhaps the most enduring form of happiness and pleasure in itself?

And I honestly had no idea Tzeentch liked hope. I knew he liked creativity, but usually in a warped and twisted way where the artist goes insane in the end... :smallconfused:

Sanity is for the weak, for after reaching apotheosis of artistic perfection, in a catheris of being freed by such petty mortal concerns, can breach beyond even perfection with their new found awareness.

[king.com]

This. These ideas haven't been seen in a book in so long most people aren't even aware of their existence. And then they call me crazy for talking about how khornates aren't just mindless slaughterbots. :smallannoyed:

Thats because its all been retconned. The honour aspect of Khorne doesnt exist, it is entirely the way of the more brutal and merciless a death is, the better, bathing in the blood of innocents.

Slaneesh is not about simple pleasure but all about extremes, its about going to impossible lengths to achieve the apecs of pleasure and pain, of unnesscary ecstasy, to the point where your ordinary functions give way and imperial order falls.

Nurgle is all about corruption and taint about using his disciples as carriers of human fear and desperate need for self-preservation, because grandfather Nurgle takes good care of his follows, feeding off of their fear of suffering and giving them immunity to his gifts. So that they can then spread that same fear.

Tzeench, he is hope, because hope is a desire for a state of change. When a factory worker whose family has pulled the same leaver for the last three hundred years, none ever knowing what this leaver does gets a feeling of hope. He hopes that his life can be better, more important and decides not to pull that leaver, just once, just to see what will happen. That leaver happens to produce coffee for a planetary governor every morning and this same morning the governor is on edge, needing to make a decision to put down a revolt. Without the patience he may have had he has the revolt put to death. The Hive breaks into open revolt at the slaughter of their friends and family, desperately looking for an ally to help them punish their enemies. And Tzeench is waiting.


That is what Black Crusade is about.

[DeltaEmil]

Khorne never was a god of honour, even back then in "The Lost and the Damned". It was his followers who might have acted like they had some kind of shrewd honour, or thought that they should appease to the Blood God with worthy sacrifices. But the mutable chaotic entity, the Lord on the Brassen Throne never cared what was killed in its name. Just that it was. And it bestowed its strange and horrific gifts to child butchers as well as dark knights who slaughter warrior kings and orc chieftains. Sometimes, he bestows so many mutations as a reward that the cultist degenerates into a chaos spawn. But spawn-hood is not a punishment. It just happens, because the cultist drew the attention of his ruinous gods towards him too often...

[king.com]

Khorne never was a god of honour, even back then in "The Lost and the Damned". It was his followers who might have acted like they had some kind of shrewd honour, or thought that they should appease to the Blood God with worthy sacrifices. But the mutable chaotic entity, the Lord on the Brassen Throne never cared what was killed in its name. Just that it was. And it bestowed its strange and horrific gifts to child butchers as well as dark knights who slaughter warrior kings and orc chieftains. Sometimes, he bestows so many mutations as a reward that the cultist degenerates into a chaos spawn. But spawn-hood is not a punishment. It just happens, because the cultist drew the attention of his ruinous gods towards him too often...

The original fluff had the paths to choas being honour leads to Khorne, pleasure to Slaneesh etc. Honour was an excuse for bloodshed so that over time you could use it to justify anything until eventually you hit the point where you didnt need to hide behind the concept anymore. Thats gone away with and now its simply killing that is the aspect of Khorne.

[DeltaEmil]

Yes. The followers can be honorable, and start their descent into madness. But the god never had something like honour, and never really needed it, nor did it enforce it or talk to the people in its dreams about how it doesn't want mutilated childs. All it cared was blood. Blood and skulls for its throne.
People attribute Khorne with such concepts like honour based on fanon and mis-remembering the original background lore, or ignoring the parts that were too graphic, because it becomes hard to identify with the dark side.
But The Lost and the Damned and Realms of Chaos had all of the gods always exemplify their traits for which they are still known today, as excessive entities that know no boundaries.

It's like attributing Slaanesh with cuddly sex and harmless stuff. It's wrong, and has always been wrong. And it's not restricted to sex. It's about extreme sensation, like bathing in acid while cutting up your wrists and eating a swarm of bees.

[king.com]

People attribute Khorne with such concepts like honour based on fanon and mis-remembering the original background lore, or ignoring the parts that were too graphic, because it becomes hard to identify with the dark side.
But The Lost and the Damned and Realms of Chaos had all of the gods always exemplify their traits for which they are still known today, as excessive entities that know no boundaries.


His original concept was the death only of actual warriors rather than anything that is in sight, that always implied to me some sense of honour, that only deaths of strength mattered.

[DeltaEmil]

Watching warriors fight to death against each another is more entertaining for any of the chaos gods than watching a warrior butchering weak children, unless it's a thousands of them, then it becomes entertaining too, which is why Khorne's more probable into bestowing his mark upon a battle-hardened champion, but the child-butcherer still also gets some nifty mutation to further the blood-lust of his inhumane god. Noble elven warriors, stout dwarven kings, feral orc warlords, britonnian crusading knights, lowly sick peasants, whipped slaves, hungering beggars, they're skulls are all the same once they are added to the throne of the great dog of war.

[king.com]

Watching warriors fight to death against each another is more entertaining for any of the chaos gods than watching a warrior butchering weak children, unless it's a thousands of them, then it becomes entertaining too, which is why Khorne's more probable into bestowing his mark upon a battle-hardened champion, but the child-butcherer still also gets some nifty mutation to further the blood-lust of his inhumane god. Noble elven warriors, stout dwarven kings, feral orc warlords, britonnian crusading knights, lowly sick peasants, whipped slaves, hungering beggars, they're skulls are all the same once they are added to the throne of the great dog of war.

That still seesm to indicate he's distinguising between 2 different acts. Not that elves or dwarves actually exist so its more, Space Marines/Guardsmen as opposed to regular imperial filth. And I really don't like that whole 'warhammer fantasy exists in 40k universe somewhere'.

[DeltaEmil]

Eldar and Squats (although GW still claims that the latter were "officialy" eaten by Tyranid gribblies, which makes no sense, but that's another story) then.
In Wh40k, it's all about symbolic deeds, because there's so many aspiring champions of the lost and the damned, and the fickle gods of the imaterium quickly become bored with the same feats in their glory. To focus their ruinous gaze upon them, Khorne warbands must slaughter the entire population of a few billion souls in a hive city to have their leader elevated to daemonhood and his followers be given a few tentacles with which to rend their foes in even more gruesome ways, or their armors infused with their living flesh.
Unless Khorne demands a little bit more entertainment, then it's going to have to be the entire population of the hive world itself. But that's okay, the price is eternal damnation and the possiblity to slaughter forever and ever. The great nirvana of madness. And in Khorne's case, bloodlust.

[WitchSlayer]

Honestly? It's not that hard to run a Chaos game in the RPG books they have already, I would've preferred a Xenos RPG book. But oh well I suppose.

[king.com]

Eldar and Squats (although GW still claims that the latter were "officialy" eaten by Tyranid gribblies, which makes no sense, but that's another story) then.
In Wh40k, it's all about symbolic deeds, because there's so many aspiring champions of the lost and the damned, and the fickle gods of the imaterium quickly become bored with the same feats in their glory. To focus their ruinous gaze upon them, Khorne warbands must slaughter the entire population of a few billion souls in a hive city to have their leader elevated to daemonhood and his followers be given a few tentacles with which to rend their foes in even more gruesome ways, or their armors infused with their living flesh.
Unless Khorne demands a little bit more entertainment, then it's going to have to be the entire population of the hive world itself. But that's okay, the price is eternal damnation and the possiblity to slaughter forever and ever. The great nirvana of madness. And in Khorne's case, bloodlust.

Squat homeworlds were first mentioned when they were described for the first time when the tyranids wiped them out, it was either a legal or writer disagreement way back when, regardless there are an infinite number of issues which make less sense.

If thats what it takes to achieve demonhood, your rpg is going to be fairly short and that's a very easy task. How is every khornate marine not a demon by this point? The game is not just about ordinary humans, traitor legionnaires are a big part of it.

Wait now your saying Khorne gets bored of the same deeds? I've never heard of that anywhere whatsoever Khornate has always been about slaughter, existing fluff says its the more mindless the better, the more thoughtless in other words.

Tzeench, Slaneeh sure they like their variety, not so much Nurgle outside of varying plagues and diseases.


Honestly? It's not that hard to run a Chaos game in the RPG books they have already, I would've preferred a Xenos RPG book. But oh well I suppose.

Its similiarly easy to run a Xeno RPG with existing books, doesn't mean it can't be made easier.

[Selrahc]

Squat homeworlds were first mentioned when they were described for the first time when the tyranids wiped them out, it was either a legal or writer disagreement way back when, regardless there are an infinite number of issues which make less sense.

No. Squat homeworlds were mentioned throughout their run.

The Squats were human descendants, and were the denizens of a vast empire covering the galactic core, where ultra high gravity worlds were common. They were under the protectorate of the Imperium, although frictions arose because the Squats weren't proper Emperor worshippers, being focussed around ancestor worship instead. They especially hated the Orks, who had ravaged the Squat Empire with waaaghs before the alliance with the Imperium put them on the upper foot again.

Now the idea of a vast and powerful empire, under the protectorate of the Imperium, situated in the galactic core, being "Eaten by nids" is quite ridiculous. But there were Squat homeworlds.

[king.com]

No. Squat homeworlds were mentioned throughout their run.

The Squats were human descendants, and were the denizens of a vast empire covering the galactic core, where ultra high gravity worlds were common. They were under the protectorate of the Imperium, although frictions arose because the Squats weren't proper Emperor worshippers, being focussed around ancestor worship instead. They especially hated the Orks, who had ravaged the Squat Empire with waaaghs before the alliance with the Imperium put them on the upper foot again.

Now the idea of a vast and powerful empire, under the protectorate of the Imperium, situated in the galactic core, being "Eaten by nids" is quite ridiculous. But there were Squat homeworlds.

Squats were genetically engineered humans (back when the Imperium could do all that stuff) and when everything went to hell, lost contact with the rest of the humans. Their homeworld was never given a location until the tyranids showed up. I am aware of their existants but a vast number of their 'settlements' as opposed to homeworld were built into mining sites (asteroid mining, they were engineered to deal with high density systems and thats the best environment for finding minable materials). How is it any more ridiculous than the Imperium functioning in any reasonable capactiy? Or how Choas hasn't completely overrun them? How Orks have anything sophisticated working even with their mass psychic power?

The foundation of warhammer 40,00 is ridiculousness, everything is built on it being silly and cheesy and over the top. You have a plane of existances where literally ANYTHING can happen.

[B1okHead]

And I really don't like that whole 'warhammer fantasy exists in 40k universe somewhere'.
I don't like it either. In fact, it isn't even true. In the warhammer 40,000 universe Slaanesh was created after the elves were capable of space travel, yet he still exists in fantasy. I'm pretty sure that they elves weren't the rulers of the universe in the time period warhammer fantasy is in.

[Lycan 01]

I wonder if they'll let you play as a Daemon, or maybe a Warp-Spawn. Maybe a Warp-Spawn could be a potential goal for your Chaos Marine as you level up. Being a Possessed Chaos Marine would be fun. Challenging, but fun.

They didn't give a release date for Dark Crusade, did they? :smallconfused:

[SurlySeraph]

I expect they'll save Daemonhood for another book, like how they put the Imperium's most badass stuff in Deathwatch instead of in core Dark Heresy. I might be wrong, though.


Thats because its all been retconned...

Seems like it, yeah. But I feel that Chaos is a lot scarier when it's clear that it's led by the gods of Bravery, Love, Hope, and Acceptance. Really positive concepts leading to breathtaking evil scares me a lot more than just evil in the name of evil.

I mean, "He cares not from where the blood flows!" is sufficiently badass for me to put up with it, but "Eldar become vulnerable to Slaanesh when they have any cheerful or sensual thoughts whatsover" and "If you rise up and make your sector of the galaxy happier, safer, and less GRIMDARK, you are playing right into Tzeentch's hands" really click with me.

Granted, more of my knowledge of WH40K comes from forum discussions than from the books, so I may not know what I'm talking about.


Khorne never was a god of honour, even back then in "The Lost and the Damned".

I distinctly recall reading that he sent hounds after worshippers who killed too many civilians. Can't find a source for it, though.

[Talkkno]

Thats because its all been retconned. The honour aspect of Khorne doesnt exist, it is entirely the way of the more brutal and merciless a death is, the better, bathing in the blood of innocents.


Meh, hoping FFG goes in the direction noted in the OP. Because pointless evil for evils sake doesn't really mesh with a RPG.

[faceroll]

Yeah, I hope they go with more "Khorne gets annoyed when his followers kill helpless and unworthy people; Slaanesh likes normal love in addition to the acid-tentacle stuff; Tzeentch loves hope and creativity; Nurgle is a pretty nice guy" fluff. I expect they'll go with a nonstop barrage of grimdark evulz, but one can hope.

That would be lame. Really, really lame.

[hamishspence]

In the BL novel Soul Hunter, there's something of a theme of "eye-for-eye justice" in the Night Lords Legion.

When Night Haunter says "Death is nothing compared to vindication" the point he's trying to make is- he was right to murder criminals who harm the innocent, the Emperor was wrong to chastise the Night Lords for doing this before they went renegade,

and that the Emperor's decision to have him assassinated, after he went renegade and started killing the innocent, simply proves that he was right all along- since the Emperor is now using the same methods as he did.

The Alpha Legion (at least early on) had a theme of "protecting the galaxy, by siding with Horus, so humanity will be destroyed when Horus's empire collapses, but sentient life will live on".

So, some of the Chaos Legions might have more sympathetic goals than simply "kill and torture all life".

[nyarlathotep]

If I recall correctly while the other chaos gods have been retconned or retooled, Nurgle has been kept as a relatively good guy to his followers. It is in a cult/mind control sort of way (he makes you feel good because you stop caring about the tumors), but still a definite step up from most of the other chaos gods.

Also even when the other gods were characterized more toward Tzeentch was himself a jerk. Even if he embodied hope he was going to screw you over period, because the entity itself was a ****.

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder if the rules for CSMs will be compatible with Deathwatch? It could be the necessary material for playing a Blackshield DW Marine with geneseed from a Traitor Legion (it's one of the hinted possible sources for the Blackshields)

[Octopus Jack]

Slaanesh likes normal love in addition to the acid-tentacle stuff

LOVE FOR THE LOVE GOD.
Someone had to say it.

[The Glyphstone]

Hey, Slaanesh used to canonically be the god of heavy metal music. Noise Marines were modeled with boomboxes that dealt damage to people they were pointed at.

[king.com]

I expect they'll save Daemonhood for another book, like how they put the Imperium's most badass stuff in Deathwatch instead of in core Dark Heresy. I might be wrong, though.

Seems like it, yeah. But I feel that Chaos is a lot scarier when it's clear that it's led by the gods of Bravery, Love, Hope, and Acceptance. Really positive concepts leading to breathtaking evil scares me a lot more than just evil in the name of evil.

I mean, "He cares not from where the blood flows!" is sufficiently badass for me to put up with it, but "Eldar become vulnerable to Slaanesh when they have any cheerful or sensual thoughts whatsover" and "If you rise up and make your sector of the galaxy happier, safer, and less GRIMDARK, you are playing right into Tzeentch's hands" really click with me.


Remember, you DM a game how you want it, not just by its fluff.