Dvati actions/round, do I have it right?

[Kobold-Bard]

Does this makes sense:


Each twin may take a Move action each/round. This includes Move-Equivalent actions.
The twins get a single Standard action between them, they decide each round which twin will take it.
If neither twin takes a Standard action then one twin may make a double move action.
The twins get a single Swift Action between them, they decide each round which twin will take it.
The twins must decide which of them will take a Full-Round action, though regardless they still decide which of them takes the Swift action.
The twins may split attack actions in a full attack between themselves (eg. Dvati with a BAB of 14/9/4 could have one twin take two attacks and the other make one, or one twin make all three attacks).
If one twin takes a Full-Round action or makes all the attacks in a full attack, the other may spend a Swift action to move at half their base speed.

The point about trading a swift action to move half speed obviously has no basis in the game, it's just something I left in because I like it & it doesn't leave the other twin horribly frozen. Besides that, is there anything I've misunderstood?

K-B

[Nebraska Tim]

I am not entirely certain if you are asking if that's how Dvati act by the RAW, or if these are the houserules of your game. As such, I will provide quotes from the Dragon Compendium regarding the separate actions of Dvati twins. Emphases mine.


A dvati character is actually two separate dvati twins who share a soul. These two creatures move and act separately but have a number of restrictions based on their connection.


When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts. Any other sort of action, including a free one, makes it impossible for the casting twin to focus and use his spell.
Not as clear as the previous quote, but this appears to suggest that they have separate actions.

Dvati are a very complex and difficult race to play, as the entry for them is vague for some rules and never specifically addresses things like initiative. This may be due in part to their only appearance in the actual Dragon Mags (Issue #271, page 81) which was AD&D to begin with, and never actually concerns itself with the issue of two bodies in combat.

[starwoof]

The way I understand it the Dvati only share their actions while spellcasting. It seems that any other way you might as well not play a Dvati.

[Daftendirekt]

While the concept for the dvati is pretty cool, mechanically there's no way to make them work. They share a round's worth of actions, they split 1 character's HP between them, and if one dies the other one also dies. Period.

If anybody ever created a working version of them that'd be great, and I'd totally want to try it. But, as far as I can see, the existing Dvati is unplayable.

[Smeggedoff]

While the concept for the dvati is pretty cool, mechanically there's no way to make them work. They share a round's worth of actions, they split 1 character's HP between them, and if one dies the other one also dies. Period.

If anybody ever created a working version of them that'd be great, and I'd totally want to try it. But, as far as I can see, the existing Dvati is unplayable.

Not quite right. Dvati get their hit dice split between them, their con is added after that. So a decent con score helps there (MY DM also rules that improved toughness counts for both twins, meaning they each get an extra hit point per level.)

Additionally, Dvati get a move AND standard action each, unless they're casting spells, in which case both need to concentrate.

Additionally, if one dies the other EVENTUALLY dies, unless the first is ressurected.

[arguskos]

Additionally, Dvati get a move AND standard action each, unless they're casting spells, in which case both need to concentrate.
The wording is unclear, and the intent from the designers was that they shared actions (of course, that was not an errata nor an official statement). There is room for much debate on the issue (as evidenced by the fact that these threads crop up every two weeks or so).

Personally, I think your houserule looks fine, K-B. Frankly, a bit weak still, but it at least addresses the issue and gives a clear ruling. You should address if Supernatural Abilities trigger the spellcasting clause of the dvati though, for clarification's sake if nothing else.

[Prime32]

What about this?


Each dvati twin gets one swift and one move or standard action per turn. In addition, they get a "floating" move action which may be used by one twin per turn. This move action can be combined with a twin's move/standard action to perform a full-round action, or sacrificed to give the twins one of a number of benefits for the round:

Improved Flanking: If both twins threaten an opponent, both are treated as flanking. The dvati may expend both twins' standard actions to make a single full attack against the flanked target.
Double Spell: When one twin casts a spell, the other twin mirrors his actions. Both twins must be able to affect the same area/target, and disrupting the concentration of either twin disrupts the spell. Increase the save DC of the spell by 1. The spell may originate from either twin unless it is modified by the Twin Spell metamagic feat, in which case one effect originates from each twin.
Twin Charge: If both twins are adjacent, they may charge the same opponent. This uses a standard action, but they may move double their speed as normal. If the dvati possesses the Pounce special attack, resolve this as if one twin had performed a full attack.


When one twin casts a spell, the other twin cannot use the same kind of action to cast a spell in that round. (eg. if one cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action, the second could not cast lightning bolt but could cast feather fall)

When a dvati perform a full attack, the number of attacks may be divided between the twins any way they wish, but each twin starts from their highest attack bonus. In other words, you could have one twin attack at +20/+15/+10/+5, or two at +20/+15 and +20/+15, or two at +20/+15/+10 and +20.

[Khatoblepas]

That's still too weak. They actually lose actions for their LA+1, and lose manuverability (the primary reason to play a Dvati is to be in two places at once. It'd get frustrating if you could only move one Dvati a round. The other would be a sitting duck. Dvati are not zombies - they can move and attack in the same round.)

Improved Flanking can be gotten with a feat (vexing flanker) and it means that each Dvati get 1 attack per round, even if they're standing still. After level 6, this is unforgivable, especially considering flanking is really easy to get barring very specific circumstances.

Double Spell is what makes them preferable as spellcasters over every other use of Dvati, funnily enough. Lack of manueverability? Having to split a full attack? That's alright, we can just hang back and get a free +2 to our save DCs. And if they have to be adjacent, there's no point in playing a Dvati at all.

Just... give them both their own set of actions, and say that they both have to use an equivilant action to cast a spell. (Standard action spell takes both using a standard action). It'll give Dvati an edge when it comes to noncasters, like rogues, and the half HP already makes the full attacks they'll have dangerous to pull off. Though they'll be great scouts.

And that's the simplest way you can do it.

[Darrin]

The wording is unclear, and the intent from the designers was that they shared actions (of course, that was not an errata nor an official statement).


No, that was the interpretation of the magazine editor (Mike McArtor) posting on a Paizo forum, most likely without the article text in front of him and without the benefit of playtesting. For the intent of the designer, I asked Tallon Dunning himself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32). He *mostly* agrees that each twin should get their own set of actions, but considers the half-HP thing to be much more crippling. (I don't agree... if a wizard with 1d4 HP can survive until level 20, then a dvati warblade with 1d12 + Con bonus should be just fine.)

[Tyndmyr]

Intentions aren't RAW.

By default, each individual person/monster/entity has it's own set of actions. Nothing in Dragon Compendium overrules this, with the exception of spellcasting. Everything is phrased as in such a way as to imply that they both get to act otherwise.

Basically, the intent appears to be "play a rogue, flank with yourself". It's not fantastic at that, but I guess it's playable.

[manyslayer]

I always took the Dvati as having a full round of actions each (unless casting a spell).

Seemed to me that the best use of a Dvati for a character build would be a rogue or an archer. Both suffer from the hit point problem, but not as bad as relying on HPs for a fighter or having far too few for a spellcaster.

My main thought is how things like martial adepts and warlocks fall in this. By RAW, they could each initiate a maneuver or cast an invocation, but this would be a bit too much.

I have thought of a possible way to somewhat offset the HP thing while still keeping some of the vulnerability. Have some sort of roll (Will or Fort save maybe) to allow a twin to share the damage he receives (kind of like a unreliable shield other spell).

And thanks Darrin for the link.

For the intent of the designer, I asked Tallon Dunning himself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32).
I don't entirely agree with his assessment of hit points, though, as they are obviously more than just the body (or why would a high level fighter be able to suck more damage than a team of horses, but the reality of hit points is an entirely different discussion). Overall, though, it was very nice to hear from the original designer and see his take on it.

[manyslayer]

Another thought on Dvati, if they use an item that casts spells (spell trigger, not spell completion - wand, staff, etc) does this just count as an action or is it spellcasting?

[Tyndmyr]

Another thought on Dvati, if they use an item that casts spells (spell trigger, not spell completion - wand, staff, etc) does this just count as an action or is it spellcasting?

I don't have my D. Comp. with me, but if it's not called out specifically, activating a spell trigger item is typically not considered spellcasting. Say you toss an eternal wand to each of them, you could fire both in a round.

While this does open up hilarious possibilities with dual wand bracers, it'd be hell on your WBL.

[manyslayer]

I don't have my D. Comp. with me, but if it's not called out specifically, activating a spell trigger item is typically not considered spellcasting. Say you toss an eternal wand to each of them, you could fire both in a round.

While this does open up hilarious possibilities with dual wand bracers, it'd be hell on your WBL.

So make the pair an artificer and craft your own. Hmm, rod of many wands with wands of magic missiles. APEX cannon coming online.