Thumbs up during gladitorial fights

[warmachine]

As a history argument about the thumbs up is bound to break out, it can happen in this thread and not the general #778 discussion.

I'm not a student of history, especially ancient history, but I do know the signal to kill or not kill a defeated gladiator is not universally accepted. IIRC, it is simply not known but the thumbs up/down is a likely candidate. But I reckon people will claim I'm wrong.

[Chaos rising]

I thought it was up/down as well. I think all the other positions mentioned were just thrown in because it was funny. (cover the loser in maple syrup for example).

[dps]

Yeah, it most likely was a simple thumbs up/thumbs down, but it's not clear which was the sign to kill the loser and which was the sign to spare him.

[Demonicbunny]

Yeah, it most likely was a simple thumbs up/thumbs down, but it's not clear which was the sign to kill the loser and which was the sign to spare him.

Actually all we know is that it involved a gesture with a closed fist and some sort of thumb action.

That thumb could have been pointing in any direction and the hand could have been doing any sort of movement. From simply holding it out to some sort of stabbing or wiggling motion or whatever. Or even a closed fist.
The phrase simply means thumbs turned.

Personally (which is a theory with little scientific backing) I'd suggest thumbs up for life, thumbs down for death.
Why? Because from what we can tell from gladiator skeletons, art etc the roman choice of vital spot was a sword pushed from a point at the base of the throat and towards the heart.
The raised sword on the other hand was a way of saluting.
So if we suppose that the thumb represented the sword the thumbs down would represent "kill him!" while a thumbs up would represent a salute.
Just my theory though.
We'll have to remember though that "Thumbs up" as a positive gesture is something limited to Europe and european cultural sphere. In other areas of roman influence a thumbs up is a pretty bad insult. We have no idea if this insult is due to pan-arabic influence, egyptian influence, roman influence or if it has a later origin.

[Daibhid C]

A TV documentary I saw many years ago (so I may have this wrong) suggested that thumb down was pointing to the infirmary below the arena, so meant "Get this guy patched up for his next fight." I don't recall if they had any evidence for this, though.

[Kish]

You're all going to be eaten by an allosaur.

[Demonicbunny]

A TV documentary I saw many years ago (so I may have this wrong) suggested that thumb down was pointing to the infirmary below the arena, so meant "Get this guy patched up for his next fight." I don't recall if they had any evidence for this, though.

Probably wrong given that the underground structures of the colosseum were fairly unique and that the colosseum was a fairly late structure. Gladiator combat had been practiced and spread far beyond rome by the time the colosseum was built.

[Bayar]

Back then, thumbs up meant that you (as a man) had alot of mojo, to put it bluntly. So they wouldn't really use it in public...

[King of Nowhere]

I read that thumb down meant that you had to put the sword back in the sheet, while to signal to kill you moved the thumb laterally as to mimic slitting the throath.
I'm surprised to read so many different stories, and everyone claiming to have read it somewhere...

[Mawhrin Skel]

I had a history teacher tell me that the sign for "spare him" was a modern OK sign - hand unclenched, palm out, tip of thumb against tip of index finger. The sign for "kill him" was supposedly a thumb (with clenched fist) stabbing towards the throat from above.

[Faramir]

I thought it was up/down as well. I think all the other positions mentioned were just thrown in because it was funny. (cover the loser in maple syrup for example).

No, no, thumbs up was maple syrup and thumbs down was coconut oil. Cause you know, cholesterol.

[Conuly]

I've heard it's unlikely that the distinction was between thumbs up and down, because it would be hard to do a quick assessment of which option was winning, and it would be easy to confuse the two from a distance and with all the confusion.

[comicshorse]

I've heard it's possible that the actual signal varied depending where you were in the Roman Empire, it covered numerous countries after all

[JonestheSpy]

I'm surprised to read so many different stories, and everyone claiming to have read it somewhere...

Why is that? You think all the written accounts must agree and everyone else is just misremembering?

[NerfTW]

I'm surprised to read so many different stories, and everyone claiming to have read it somewhere...

Keep in mind the Roman empire collapsed and was pretty badly wiped out. We actually have VERY little information about it relative to more recent civilizations. Also unlike, say, China, whose major book keeping repositories weren't burned.

It wasn't until recently that historians realized the classic white marble statues were actually painted very brightly, in fact.

Basically, any information about Rome that was written down and survived is fragmented, scattered, and highly contradictory due to the way communication worked at the time. There wasn't a printing press, so somebody had to transcribe each book by hand. Mistakes could and were made very often.

[shawnhcorey]

Although gladiatorial games were common throughout the Empire, seldom the fights were to the death simply because no-one wanted to pay the extra cost. Only the Emperor could afford such and deaths were common only in the Colosseum.

It was Hollywood which introduced the thumbs-up and thumbs-down signs. What signals were actually used were not recorded (or the record was destroyed).

[grimbold]

Actually all we know is that it involved a gesture with a closed fist and some sort of thumb action.

That thumb could have been pointing in any direction and the hand could have been doing any sort of movement. From simply holding it out to some sort of stabbing or wiggling motion or whatever. Or even a closed fist.
The phrase simply means thumbs turned.

Personally (which is a theory with little scientific backing) I'd suggest thumbs up for life, thumbs down for death.
Why? Because from what we can tell from gladiator skeletons, art etc the roman choice of vital spot was a sword pushed from a point at the base of the throat and towards the heart.
The raised sword on the other hand was a way of saluting.
So if we suppose that the thumb represented the sword the thumbs down would represent "kill him!" while a thumbs up would represent a salute.
Just my theory though.
We'll have to remember though that "Thumbs up" as a positive gesture is something limited to Europe and european cultural sphere. In other areas of roman influence a thumbs up is a pretty bad insult. We have no idea if this insult is due to pan-arabic influence, egyptian influence, roman influence or if it has a later origin.
this
is pretty much what i was taught

[The_Final_Stand]

I was always under the impression that thumbs up = live, Thumbs down = kill.

[Morquard]

I've heard it's unlikely that the distinction was between thumbs up and down, because it would be hard to do a quick assessment of which option was winning, and it would be easy to confuse the two from a distance and with all the confusion.
That's what I would think too, those arenas could have been quite large, and you may see "he holds out his hand", but if the thumb is up and down is harder to tell.
"Is his palm showing or is he making a fist" is easier to see, even more so if it involves a motion.

Of course, thumb down and stabbing motion for death and thumbs up and holding still for life might work.

[LuPuWei]

I read about the side thumb thing somewhere...

[Narren]

It wasn't until recently that historians realized the classic white marble statues were actually painted very brightly, in fact.

I refuse to accept this, science be damned.

[Eldan]

If it helps, all the post-Renaissance marble statues made to look roman were always white. :smalltongue:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Back then, thumbs up meant that you (as a man) had alot of mojo, to put it bluntly. So they wouldn't really use it in public...

http://ickmusic.com/pics/austin.jpg

yeaaah baby yyeaaaah

[Phishfood]

QI claimed it was thumbs out for spare and thumbs in (as in, the wrong way to punch someone) for kill. Or was it the other way round. Up/Down irrelavent.

[Killer Angel]

I've heard it's possible that the actual signal varied depending where you were in the Roman Empire, it covered numerous countries after all

Of course there were house rules. But we're discussing RAW, here! :smalltongue:

[hewhosaysfish]

Of course there were house rules. But we're discussing RAW, here! :smalltongue:

But the RAW contradicts itself in different places!
The Romans totally need to hire some better editors.

[Souhiro]

I incline for the "Modern" version, at least for the "Death" version. Why? Because the host of the games should be able to see what the public asked, life or death. And then, he must show clearly to the poor gladiators.

And an ARM movement is clearly more visible than a single wrist of the thumb. You know. When you thumbs ups or down and you're one of an excited crowd, you shall be swinging your arm upside and down. It would be nearly imposible to the host to take any account about people praised or people pissed that just moves their arms upside-down with their minuscule thumbs upside or down.

But if the Pro-Life squad is moving their arms upside-down, and the Bloodthristy ones are moving their arms horizontally (to their throats, to their hearts, to their gust...) it's easy to spot what are they saying.

But hey! we can ask John Titor for it!

[Conuly]

I'm surprised to read so many different stories, and everyone claiming to have read it somewhere...

Not that hard. The sign, whatever it was, was understood by the Romans. Nobody felt they had to spell out what to do because everybody understood what to do. It'd be like writing down how to flip the bird, or giving a detailed analysis of the difference between nodding your head or shaking your head. You don't describe it every time you mention it in a book because you expect your audience to understand these things. The problem only comes when your audience all DIES and 2000 years pass by.

Nowadays we have Wikipedia to talk about these things in way too much detail, but back then writing materials were costlier (and many of their writings were destroyed. If you're going to save one book from the Roman Empire, is it really going to be the one on not-so-obscure hand signals?)

[King of Nowhere]

I understand, but I tougth it had been established for certain at least on an academic level what the hand signs meant. Especially since I read just one version, so I tougth that one was established.

Anyway, it's not the only time in history that we lost the meaning of something because it was so obvious at the time that no one took the time to inscribe it.

[veti]

But the RAW contradicts itself in different places!
The Romans totally need to hire some better editors.

The Roman empire lasted about five centuries. I'm sure they got through at least six major editions in that time, not counting supplements and spinoffs (such as Byzantium).

[Makeitstop]

QI claimed it was thumbs out for spare and thumbs in (as in, the wrong way to punch someone) for kill. Or was it the other way round. Up/Down irrelavent.
Other way around was what I had been told and sounds right but is probably just as wrong. The thumb was supposed to be like a sword, and closing your fingers around it was sheathing it, thus saying spare him.

Honestly, I would guess that gestures were common, but cheers chants and screams were more important. It's a lot easier to assess the sounds a crowd makes than the gestures, and they come very naturally.

[kalaka]

You guys should read this essay, from the University of Chicago's very own James Grout, which attempts to clear up this common misconception:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html

[Herald Alberich]

You guys should read this essay, from the University of Chicago's very own James Grout, which attempts to clear up this common misconception:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html

The tl;dr version: we know they used thumbs, but we don't know how. The Latin translations don't make it clear.

[The Pilgrim]

The Roman empire lasted about five centuries. I'm sure they got through at least six major editions in that time, not counting supplements and spinoffs (such as Byzantium).

Actually Byzantium was still the Roman Empire. The show was cancelled in the West after the fifth season due to poor ratings, but it lasted another ten seasons in the East, where the Studios had moved after the third season.


BTW, "Byzantine Empire" is a neologism invented in the sixteen century, a hundred years after the fall of Constantinople. During it's existence, it's inhabitants called it "The Roman Empire", plain and simple. The muslims adressed it as "Rûm" ("Rome"), while the western and northern barbarians refered to it as the "Empire of the Greeks".

[veti]

Actually Byzantium was still the Roman Empire. The show was cancelled in the West after the fifth season due to poor ratings, but it lasted another ten seasons in the East, where the Studios had moved after the third season.

Meh... if you insist. But by that time (roughly what I'm thinking was 5th edition), gladiatorial displays were written out of the rules anyway. Of course opinions may vary, but I don't think it was the same game after that.

[Captainocaptain]

I was never entirely sure there was an actual hand gesture for "live" or "die" in gladiator fights. Yeah its all epic when the two combatants look to the emperor and he does some silly gesture, but really, wouldn't it be easier to just say "Kill him" or "Let him live." ?

[Acero]

wouldn't it be easier to just say "Kill him" or "Let him live." ?

No.

The Romans were a rowdy bunch. The crowd at the games could be thousands strong with each one yelling their opinion on whether or not the person should live or die. The decision fell upon whoever the game's sponsor was. It would be too loud to hear him, so hand signals were the only option

[Clertar]

Nowadays we have Wikipedia to talk about these things in way too much detail, but back then ...

It made me lol :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

Putting thumb gestures aside, I'm quite sure it is established also that the crowd screamed "mitte" (let him go) if they wanted the loser to be spared, or "iugula" (slit his troath) if they wanted him to be killed.
But I agree that it would be impossible to hear the emperor, so his hand gesture must have been visible and unambiguous.