1 or 2 lvl. class dip to turn wizard to gish (3.5)

[pinballchico]

New question at post 12. Thought I'd try it in thread instead of creating a new thread.....maybe a bad call.



I'm currently a lvl. 3 focused specialist conjuration wizard about to hit lvl. 4. I know I'm going gish......going for a 1 lvl dip in spellsword some abjchamp and maybe Jade Phoenix Mage (the JPM isn't in my heart yet..but the other 2 are almost certain.) I know I'll need another lvl. or 2 of wiz. before I start PRCing but I'm ready to start hitting things and take the first of my multiclass dips here.
My guess is the 1lvl dip in spellsword will be my first PRC but I could be wrong


No penalty for multiclassing
Stats/Feats/and maximizing hit die are all available for exp. point buy.

I was looking at Warblade for the Int boost to reflex per lvl...but to be worth much it would take away spell lvls. I'd like to end up casting lvl. nine spells eventually.

So my question is this...am I debating between Warblade and fighter for the one or 2 lvl. dip or do I have options I'm completely missing. for a second I thought a Wiz/Barbar mix would be fun (if not just funny) but I'd lose out on full weapon and shield use that I need for Spellsword.

So...whats my best option here?
And Thanks for your help.

PS: if you couldn't tell by the Wiz/Barbar thing...I'm willing to look at even the most improbable idea....no telling what I'll fall in love with.....but I do wish the practical as well.

[true_shinken]

There is only one answer. Repeat after me, here we go:
Warblade is the best dip for a gish Wizard!

[PersonMan]

If you have Complete Mage, the Armored Mage ACF(giving up medium and heavy armor proficiency) and two levels of fighter can get you unhindered casting of up to 3rd level spells in light armor. Use one fighter bonus feat on medium armor proficiency, and one normal feat on Battle Caster(in Complete Arcane) to get unhindered casting in up to medium armor.

Not sure how this would fit in with the other PrCs you have in mind, but for two levels and a feat you can cast up to 3rd level spells in medium armor. This will probably eliminate the need to go for Spellsword if you wanted it for it's Ignore Spell Failure. Although you may need to ask your DM if the feat works, as the wording about the class and spells means that, technically, only spells granted by your fighter levels can be cast in medium armor, since the feat is meant for Warmages.

[dextercorvia]

Ranger1 is pretty good and slightly non-traditional. You get good skills and can Wand Chamber a some great ranger spells like an (Archivist created) wand of Lion's Charge. It doesn't work as well with Spellsword.

[Coidzor]

There is only one answer. Repeat after me, here we go:
Warblade is the best dip for a gish Wizard!

The only downside is the PrCs that demand all martial weapon proficiencies, since Warblades are only proficient with martial melee weapons, IIRC.

[Eurus]

Factotum ain't half bad if you splurge on Font of Inspiration either. Although personally, I adore the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) if you're in the mood for more than a short dip.

[John Cribati]

Monk lol j/k

[Eldariel]

The only downside is the PrCs that demand all martial weapon proficiencies, since Warblades are only proficient with martial melee weapons, IIRC.

And Spellsword's heavy armor prerequisite which requires a feat if using Barbarian/Warblade/whatever or 2 for Ranger.

[Urpriest]

I hear Crusader mentioned a lot in Jade Pheonix Mage builds.

[tyckspoon]

Not sure how this would fit in with the other PrCs you have in mind, but for two levels and a feat you can cast up to 3rd level spells in medium armor. This will probably eliminate the need to go for Spellsword if you wanted it for it's Ignore Spell Failure. Although you may need to ask your DM if the feat works, as the wording about the class and spells means that, technically, only spells granted by your fighter levels can be cast in medium armor, since the feat is meant for Warmages.

One level of Spellsword is 10% ASF reduction. Combine with Mithral's 10 to cover a chain shirt completely, or leave just 5% on a Breastplate to take off with Twilight or thistledown padding. No need to burn extra feats and spellcasting levels on a weak ACF that doesn't even unlock all his spell levels (heck, if you were gonna do that, you could just go to Spellsword 3 which would also cover that last 5%.)

[Squark]

If you're going for a class that requires proficiency in heavy armor, Fighter or Crusader seem like the best options. If you need proficiency with all martial weapons as well (For Spellsword, and, if the other classes don't get you to level 20, Eldritch Knight*), you may have to go Fighter, because I believe none of the TOB classes are proficient in martial ranged weapons (I'm afraid my copy of ToB has been at a friend's house for the last few years, so I don't know for sure). That being said, Swashbuckler 3 offers your intelligence bonus to damage, making it an excellent choice... Except, you know, for the fact that you took 3 levels in a no casting class. Still, something to consider


*I only recommend Eldritch Knight if you're having trouble rounding out the last few levels of your build. Which will probably only be the case if your DM doesn't allow Swiftblade, and then only if you decide not to go all the way with Jade Phoenix Mage.

[dextercorvia]

Duskblade gets the Weapon and Armor proficiencies and Int synergy. Also, the spontaneous casting opens up some feat options later (not that you will have any spare ones).

[pinballchico]

Alright.Thanks guys. It was very helpful. I think I've found a build I love.

In researching I realized that Abj. Champ's spells AC won't stack with, and would be stronger than, any armor I could wear from a dip in Spell sword.(that is as long as my DM lets Greater Mage Armor become abjuration insteat of Conjuration.) Also JPM requires stances and such.

So here's what I'm looking at
Wiz3
Warblade1
*JPM3
Abjurant Champion5
*JPM7

that gets me 17&1/2 BAB and CL16 with 1 lvl left to spare...probably just going to Wiz to round it off at 18 and 17 giving me 9th lvl. spells.

My new big question is the *s ...I'd prefer to go JPM2..then Abj Champ5 then JPM8, but at that point I'm 1/2 BAB short of meeting the qualifications for abchamp.

I'd prefer to start getting some kind of AC bonus at lvl7 as opposed to 8 so is there anyway to jump that 1/2 point of bab up?

A feat?
does a strength mod count for a PrC?

Lemme know,
and thanks again.

[Coidzor]

^: I don't really see any way to get in that early, sorry. :smallfrown: Divine Power entry would require 4th level spells and either a Domain Wizard with a custom domain or that feat that grants a cleric domain onto the character's spell list.

Spellsword would let you wear something like magic leather armor or magical padded armor and an animated light shield/light shield/buckler with enchantments on them without having to worry about the ASF or put Twilight on them or get gith/feycraft stuff. Then you'd be wearing the armor for the properties and the AC is just a bare minimum buffer, if that, if you get dispelled.

Could even then open up things like dastana and chahar-aina as well, if one wanted to have multiple places for magical armor properties.

But I'm not really clear on what other than fortification is good for gishes as an armor property...

[Elric VIII]

If I may make a suggestion, use Crusader instead of Warblade. I'm actually building a gish similar to this and I keep running into the problem of having a bunch of swift action abilities and not enough actions to use them effectively. Recovering maneuvers as a Warblade is a swift action, Crusader requires no action.

[pinballchico]

good call. If I can find some kind of "cause" to have in this campaign I'll take this route.

[Goonthegoof]

Incantatrix is probably the best way to become a gish. It'll let you persist spells like haste and wraithstrike a lot earlier, beating out what any gishing PRC would let you do (with the possible exception of swiftblade).

[true_shinken]

Incantatrix is probably the best way to become a gish. It'll let you persist spells like haste and wraithstrike a lot earlier, beating out what any gishing PRC would let you do (with the possible exception of swiftblade).

That's a waste of a Incantatrix. If you're using Incantatrix, you're already breaking the game. If your breaking game, you should go all the way.
...Well, you just shouldn't break the game, period.

[Essence_of_War]

If the worst thing you do with persist spell is to persist wraithstrike, that probably isn't so bad for the game relative to the horror that the incantatrix could wreak if it so chose.

Don't do it though. Abuse of Wraithstrike will only result in enemy touch ACs going through the roof. Until it does that, it will make all of your allies feel really useless in combat and you don't really want that.

Pick up a level of fighter to get the martial weapon prof you need for abj champion. Max out that bad boy, pick up a level in spellsword. This should get you through till level 12 (Wiz 5/F1/SpSwo1/AbjChamp 5) and now if you grab a warblade level you're at IL 7 and will know enough maneuvers to get into JPM. You won't get the capstone, but you'll get 7 levels in it to pick up a number of goodies.

[Tyndmyr]

There is only one answer. Repeat after me, here we go:
Warblade is the best dip for a gish Wizard!

Not crusader? I would have thought that the extra survivability would be a plus at the low levels, when a wizard is at it's weakest.

If you need all martial proficiencies, either a fighter/whatever dip or the Militia feat are good options.

[dextercorvia]

So here's what I'm looking at
Wiz3
Warblade1
*JPM3
Abjurant Champion5
*JPM7

What early entry are you using to get 9 ranks of concentration at ECL4?

[Coidzor]

good call. If I can find some kind of "cause" to have in this campaign I'll take this route.

But you already have the greatest cause of them all, SCIENCE!MAGIC!

:smallcool:

[pinballchico]

What early entry are you using to get 9 ranks of concentration at ECL4?

Yep I missed that one. I've never used concentration for anything without combat casting stacked on there. Forgot what my real ranks were. Throws my whole plan off-kilter.

Looks like spellsword may make its return into this build.

[Darrin]

Yep I missed that one. I've never used concentration for anything without combat casting stacked on there. Forgot what my real ranks were. Throws my whole plan off-kilter.

Looks like spellsword may make its return into this build.

There is a way to get into JPM after ECL 5, but you have to spend your 1st and 3rd level feats on Favored/Primary Contact (Cityscape). This is only feasable if you can use retraining/psychic reformation/dark chaos shuffle to swap those feats later. The build would look something like:

Wizard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 2/AbChamp 5/JPM +8

Otherwise, you'll have to squeeze 2 levels of something like Master Specialist or Ruathar to get into Spellsword.

[pinballchico]

There is a way to get into JPM after ECL 5, but you have to spend your 1st and 3rd level feats on Favored/Primary Contact (Cityscape). This is only feasable if you can use retraining/psychic reformation/dark chaos shuffle to swap those feats later. The build would look something like:

Wizard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 2/AbChamp 5/JPM +8

Otherwise, you'll have to squeeze 2 levels of something like Master Specialist or Ruathar to get into Spellsword.


I talked to my DM today and he said "there is a "pun-pun style" way you could get in there early...but I'm not gonna allow it....my guess is this is what he was talking about...I'll ask anyway...thanx.

Also change out warblade for crusader and you get the entrance requirements (besides BAB) for SpellSword/Abj champ and JMP...plus crusader looks awsome

[FMArthur]

There is a way to get into JPM after ECL 5, but you have to spend your 1st and 3rd level feats on Favored/Primary Contact (Cityscape). This is only feasable if you can use retraining/psychic reformation/dark chaos shuffle to swap those feats later. The build would look something like:

Wizard 4/Warblade 1/JPM 2/AbChamp 5/JPM +8

Otherwise, you'll have to squeeze 2 levels of something like Master Specialist or Ruathar to get into Spellsword.

You only get an extra rank beyond your current max ranks. So if you take Primary Contact at 3rd level and your max ranks improves by one when you go up to fourth level, you don't have your advantage anymore and it doesn't scale up with you. You would have to take the feat exactly one level before entry to see an early-entry benefit.

[Goonthegoof]

I quite like the idea of an incantatrix gish though. It's like getting a laser rifle and using it as a club :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

You only get an extra rank beyond your current max ranks. So if you take Primary Contact at 3rd level and your max ranks improves by one when you go up to fourth level, you don't have your advantage anymore and it doesn't scale up with you. You would have to take the feat exactly one level before entry to see an early-entry benefit.

That's not my interpretation of how Primary Contact works. If the feat gives a "bonus rank" at 3rd level, it should also give a "bonus rank" at 4th level, 5th level, 6th level, etc.


I talked to my DM today and he said "there is a "pun-pun style" way you could get in there early...but I'm not gonna allow it....my guess is this is what he was talking about...I'll ask anyway...thanx.


He may be referring to the "Inspire Greatness" trick, which gives you two bonus HD, then you apply psychic reformation to redistribute your skill points. The reasoning is "max skill ranks" is only enforced when you level up, so once the two bonus HD go away, your skill ranks stay where they are. Rules-wise, this is worth a raised eyebrow if not outright dubiousness.

Assuming your DM agrees with me on how Primary Contact works, it might be a more rules-friendly alternative.