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View Full Version : How much Damage would a Lightsaber do in D and D?



Sims
2011-02-27, 12:29 PM
If you ever watched StarWars, you've seen that it can cut through almost anything. I want my players to fight a villain from the future, and what better weapon haha! I wonder if I should make it automatically do Con damage or be Vorpal.

Im thinking 3d8.

Kaeso
2011-02-27, 12:31 PM
If I'm correct a lightsaber penetrates everything except another lightsaber, so it should bypass AC and DR.

Glav
2011-02-27, 12:40 PM
If I'm correct a lightsaber penetrates everything except another lightsaber, so it should bypass AC and DR.

It would be a longsword (or perhaps an elven longblade/curveblade) with:

* Adamantine (ignoring hardness less than 20)
* Throwing (+1)
* Keen (+1)
* Ghost touch (+2)
* Vorpal (+5)
* Brilliant Energy (+4) (ignoring armor and shield bonuses)

and probably +5.

So, you're looking at a +18 weapon there. :)

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:45 PM
In M&M, the most common depiction of lightsabers is Corrosion, which is basically Damage + Toughness damage. Basically, it reduces your current and maximum hit points, the maximum before the current, when translated into D&D.

One thing you should not do is make it Constitution damage, as it would make objects and nonliving creatures immune to a lightsaber. Also, it doesn't really seem like Vorpal would work, as a lightsaber does not decapitate people often in the movies (except as a coup de grace).

Eldan
2011-02-27, 12:46 PM
Adamantine Brilliant Energy should probably be enough for most applications of light sabers.

And why throwing? I don't know much about star wars, but I thought they switched off when they leave the Jedi's hand.

DrizztFan24
2011-02-27, 12:47 PM
Disintegrate stick!

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:49 PM
Adamantine Brilliant Energy should probably be enough for most applications of light sabers.

And why throwing? I don't know much about star wars, but I thought they switched off when they leave the Jedi's hand.

Brilliant Energy makes a lightsaber useless against anything without a Constitution score, such as doors and droids.

Lightsabers can be kept lit by a Jedi when thrown, though it is more the Jedi's Force powers than the lightsaber itself, so it should not really be made Thrown.

Glav
2011-02-27, 12:59 PM
Brilliant Energy makes a lightsaber useless against anything without a Constitution score, such as doors and droids.

Lightsabers can be kept lit by a Jedi when thrown, though it is more the Jedi's Force powers than the lightsaber itself, so it should not really be made Thrown.

True. You'd need a way to shift it between brilliant energy and a regular sword; perhaps as a swift action and another +1 - +2 cost.

Otherwise, the effect would be almost exactly what you need.

Gnoman
2011-02-27, 01:01 PM
It depends on the individual Jedi. Some built the lightsaber with a toggle switch, others used a dead-man. Lightsabers use the force in construction, but operate on pure technology.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-27, 01:37 PM
I seem to recall there being a Star Wars d20 game that had stats for lightsabers in it. I don't happen to have my copy handy. Taking a quick look at a Knights of the Old Republic FAQ shows lightabers doing 2d8 damage (compared to a long sword's d12 and a light repeating blaster's d8).

Morph Bark
2011-02-27, 01:52 PM
I seem to recall there being a Star Wars d20 game that had stats for lightsabers in it. I don't happen to have my copy handy. Taking a quick look at a Knights of the Old Republic FAQ shows lightabers doing 2d8 damage (compared to a long sword's d12 and a light repeating blaster's d8).

Comparing that to DnD's 1d8 longsword, I'd guess lightsabers in DnD would do 2d6 or 1d10.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 01:54 PM
They should also always be treated as ignoring armor of all kinds, unless it is made with the cortosis or phrik special materials (which would cost a hefty price).

jiriku
2011-02-27, 02:00 PM
A 2d8 weapon, with a 19-20/x2 threat range, that deals untyped damage or force damage, rather than bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage. It makes touch attacks (ignoring armor, shield, and natural armor) and deals full damage against objects, ignoring hardness. The only objects that seemed to slow it down are things like reinforced blast doors, which have hundreds and hundreds of hit points and thus would take some time to cut through.

Dalek-K
2011-02-27, 02:03 PM
Wait so a weapon that can cut through anything with a mere touch does d8 damage? Um no...

It would have to at minimum have a property where any non-living/object it touches is sundered. Any living being touched by the lightsaber would have that part sliced through and rendered useless (arm, body, head).

With the current classes and abilities of 3.5 or 4.0 ... Lightsabers just won't work. Anyone that would have one would be over powerful and not much could stop the blow from being a killing strike.

About the only thing that could save someone would be wall of force armor.... Maybe...

jiriku
2011-02-27, 02:18 PM
You're clearly confusing a lightsaber with a katana. Katanas are much more powerful. :smallbiggrin:

When seeing badass characters do awesome things with lightsabers in movies, it's important to distinguish between weapon-derived badassery and character-derived badassery. The original Star Wars d20 game didn't even let you build your lightsaber until you were level 2. You weren't a real jedi knight until level 6. So in D&D terms, the lowliest jedi knight is more badass than all but the most elite special forces teams of the real world, and a jedi master could easily defeat classic swrds'n'sorcery heroes like Aragorn or Conan in single combat.

TL;DR Yeah, the sword is cool, but most of it is class levels and force powers.

Solaris
2011-02-27, 03:20 PM
A 2d8 weapon, with a 19-20/x2 threat range, that deals untyped damage or force damage, rather than bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage. It makes touch attacks (ignoring armor, shield, and natural armor) and deals full damage against objects, ignoring hardness. The only objects that seemed to slow it down are things like reinforced blast doors, which have hundreds and hundreds of hit points and thus would take some time to cut through.

I think this is the most practical interpretation of it. Auto-sunder-everything is... well, wrong. If it worked like that, then the reinforced blast doors wouldn't have been a problem.
I also think damage reduction should continue to apply, if only the supernatural sorts. I could also see it doing fire damage, as it uses heat to damage things.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 03:32 PM
Wait so a weapon that can cut through anything with a mere touch does d8 damage? Um no...

It would have to at minimum have a property where any non-living/object it touches is sundered. Any living being touched by the lightsaber would have that part sliced through and rendered useless (arm, body, head).

With the current classes and abilities of 3.5 or 4.0 ... Lightsabers just won't work. Anyone that would have one would be over powerful and not much could stop the blow from being a killing strike.

About the only thing that could save someone would be wall of force armor.... Maybe...

That's not true. There are many, many examples of people who have survived being slashed with a lightsaber. One of them, a Hutt, actually had a third of his head removed by the strike.

Turns out that example actually had one third of his head removed from a giant killer worm, never mind. :smallredface:

CN the Logos
2011-02-27, 03:40 PM
Everyone is thinking too hard about this.



Brilliant Energy makes a lightsaber useless against anything without a Constitution score, such as doors and droids.

Lightsabers can be kept lit by a Jedi when thrown, though it is more the Jedi's Force powers than the lightsaber itself, so it should not really be made Thrown.
True. You'd need a way to shift it between brilliant energy and a regular sword; perhaps as a swift action and another +1 - +2 cost.

Otherwise, the effect would be almost exactly what you need.

They have this already. It's called wraithstrike. It's a 3rd level spell that says your next attack ignores AC, and it doesn't have brilliant energy's "can't hit nonliving things" clause. Figure out how much this lasting forever on an adamantine bastard sword would should cost.

Easiest homebrew ever.

ETA: Also, lightsabers have been deflected by non-lightsaber things multiple times. Even if we don't count the prequels or the EU, there's a bit in the original trilogy (Empire, I think), where Luke scores a glancing hit on Vader's helmet and it bounces off.

Solaris
2011-02-27, 04:02 PM
Everyone is thinking too hard about this.



They have this already. It's called wraithstrike. It's a 3rd level spell that says your next attack ignores AC, and it doesn't have brilliant energy's "can't hit nonliving things" clause. Figure out how much this lasting forever on an adamantine bastard sword would should cost.

Easiest homebrew ever.

ETA: Also, lightsabers have been deflected by non-lightsaber things multiple times. Even if we don't count the prequels or the EU, there's a bit in the original trilogy (Empire, I think), where Luke scores a glancing hit on Vader's helmet and it bounces off.

Also in RotJ, where it bounces off the railing while he's wailing on Vader's helmet. Cuts, too, but there you have it.

And hey, hey, hey, quit trying to make stuff easy over here. We're third edition players, we make this stuff as complicated as it could possibly be! Complicated = fun, right?

hamishspence
2011-02-27, 04:08 PM
Also, lightsabers have been deflected by non-lightsaber things multiple times. Even if we don't count the prequels or the EU, there's a bit in the original trilogy (Empire, I think), where Luke scores a glancing hit on Vader's helmet and it bounces off.

I thought it was shoulder rather than helmet- but yes- while they're good at cutting, they also bounce off things.

I think to get the full benefit, it needs to be pressed hard against whatever they're trying to cut through.

FMArthur
2011-02-27, 04:18 PM
So really they're functionally the same as a sword but as superhot laserswords they deal enough fire damage to melt through things rather quickly. A +1 Flaming Corrosive bastard sword would be enough to emulate pretty much everything it's been seen to do.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 04:22 PM
That part is... debatable. In some EU, the lightsaber doesn't give off heat at all, while in others it's hot enough to seal wounds.

FMArthur
2011-02-27, 04:24 PM
That part is... debatable. In some EU, the lightsaber doesn't give off heat at all, while in others it's hot enough to seal wounds.

Maybe that's just... wrong, then? What was Qui-Gon doing with that door at the start of Episode 1?

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 04:31 PM
Once again, star wars writers were all over the place with that. It seems that Lucas prefers the version with lightsabers giving off heat (why on earth he'd allow other writers to say otherwise when it is clearly depicted in the movie is beyond me).

It seems that later writers have attempted to retcon this, saying that a containment field stops the blade from giving off heat, but does not stop heat transfer from physical contact. Let's go with that, as it explains how Qui-Gon did that.

hamishspence
2011-02-27, 04:37 PM
In the novelization of Star Wars: A New Hope- (credited to George Lucas, but ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster) Luke holds his hand fairly close to the blade, and notices it gives off no heat.

So, it's been like that from very early on.

Gnaeus
2011-02-27, 04:39 PM
If it only cut, and didn't cauterize, Vader cutting off Luke's hand would have been followed by a shower of blood.

Morph Bark
2011-02-27, 05:08 PM
If it only cut, and didn't cauterize, Vader cutting off Luke's hand would have been followed by a shower of blood.

Special effects limitations? :smalltongue:

Though what heat a lightsaber "gives off" could be more like the heat being contained as well, so being near it doesn't make you feel the heat, but touching it would.

FMArthur
2011-02-27, 05:11 PM
On the other hand, they have jedi learn with the lightsaber while blindfolded... Maybe their eradication wasn't all clone troopers, but maybe lightsabers just aren't that dangerous unless wielded purposefully by a well-trained space wizard.

Doc Roc
2011-02-27, 05:13 PM
1dBodyparts.

LOTRfan
2011-02-27, 05:16 PM
On the other hand, they have jedi learn with the lightsaber while blindfolded... Maybe their eradication wasn't all clone troopers, but maybe lightsabers just aren't that dangerous unless wielded purposefully by a well-trained space wizard.

Training 'sabers. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Training_lightsaber) Not everyone (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tenel_Ka) is lucky enough to have those, though.

hamishspence
2011-02-27, 05:18 PM
If it only cut, and didn't cauterize, Vader cutting off Luke's hand would have been followed by a shower of blood.

In Star Wars: A New Hope, Ponda Baba (the Aqualish with Doctor Evazan, the man who "has the death sentence on twelve systems") leaves a bit of blood on the floor along with his arm.

That said- it being a heat-based weapon, surrounded by a field that keeps the heat in unless it's pressed against a target, still works.

Gnoman
2011-02-28, 08:25 AM
Canonically, a lightsaber only generates heat or expends noticeable energy when actually cutting something (this is why Obi-Wan's lightsaber shorts out in the Naboo lake in Episode 1, his saber was constantly trying to cut the water, but it spent it all), so the heat given off when it's just cutting air is negligible. This can be seen in the films, as when cutting through limbs, only enough energy is transferred to sever the limb and seal off the blood vessels (even instantly cauterized wounds will bleed a little) but when plunged into a blast door, it causes a large radius of durasteel to glow and melt (That much energy into a limb would vaporize it.)

Xuc Xac
2011-02-28, 08:39 AM
Wait so a weapon that can cut through anything with a mere touch does d8 damage? Um no...


Welcome to the wonderfully ridiculous world of hit points. A sword that does 1d8 points of damage can cut an unarmored man in half from shoulder to hip in the real world, but in D&D that only works on first level characters with small hit dice.

The_Jackal
2011-02-28, 08:58 AM
Play D20 Star Wars. Problem solved.

Gabe the Bard
2011-02-28, 09:20 AM
In our homebrewed setting, we have a race that uses lightsabers, which start out as 1d8 brilliant energy weapons that gain more damage dice as the character progresses in levels. Eventually, the brilliant energy ability advances so that the weapon can also damage undead and constructs, but not until higher levels.

hamishspence
2011-02-28, 09:29 AM
Canonically, a lightsaber only generates heat or expends noticeable energy when actually cutting something (this is why Obi-Wan's lightsaber shorts out in the Naboo lake in Episode 1, his saber was constantly trying to cut the water, but it spent it all), so the heat given off when it's just cutting air is negligible.

That said, lightsabers can be designed waterproof. Kit Fisto (the green tentacled jedi in Episode III who gets killed trying to arrest Palpatine) has one- and Luke apparently designed his green one to be waterproof (remembering that his blue one shorted out in the swamps of Mimban, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye).

Thiyr
2011-02-28, 10:00 AM
I do like what I saw in Saga Edition. Exotic weapon, does 2d8 damage, and ignores all DR and hardness. Personally, I cut it down to ignoring 5 or 10 DR and hardness, as it makes sense of why a lightsaber doesn't just cut through anything instantly (I'm mostly remembering that door at the start of Episode 1. It was slow, but it cut through it.), but I think both are serviceable without making it...well, overly crazy.

dextercorvia
2011-02-28, 10:22 AM
In my mind, Jedi would be a PrC, and then you could handle it rather like the Kensai.

Gnoman
2011-02-28, 10:52 AM
That said, lightsabers can be designed waterproof. Kit Fisto (the green tentacled jedi in Episode III who gets killed trying to arrest Palpatine) has one- and Luke apparently designed his green one to be waterproof (remembering that his blue one shorted out in the swamps of Mimban, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye).

Yeah. I have no idea how that's supposed to work though, and the Clone Wars series have their own special level of Canon IIRC.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-28, 11:01 AM
Play D20 Star Wars. Problem solved.

Or don't, considering how terrible a system is. If you really want to, Star Wars SAGA and Star Wars d6 are acceptable games.

Knaight
2011-02-28, 11:16 AM
Wait so a weapon that can cut through anything with a mere touch does d8 damage? Um no...

It would have to at minimum have a property where any non-living/object it touches is sundered. Any living being touched by the lightsaber would have that part sliced through and rendered useless (arm, body, head).

This requires a good hit, if the tip brushes someone its going to be comparable to the tip of a normal sword brushing someone, on a good hit a normal sword can do a lot of damage.

As a rule, any weapon from any era is capable of inflicting harm upon an unarmored person incredibly easy. A spear that is a pointed and fire hardened wooden stick is going to do just as much harm if it gets stuck in someone as a medieval sword or modern bullet will when it goes through them.

The difference is armor. A pointed and fire hardened wooden stick is going to have much bigger problems getting though layers of linen than a sword, and a sword is going to have much bigger problems getting through mail than a bullet. Games have handled this in different ways, the most elegant method I've seen being Fudge's quantified tech level and scale mechanic combining to reduce armor's value by the difference in tech level.

However, in this case its simply a light saber that is so far beyond armor as to render it null. As such, treating a light saber as a touch attack long sword that ignores DR should be fine. If one wants a bit more complexity the enchantment bonus on armor or shields can be transferred to touch AC.

Krotchrot
2011-02-28, 11:19 AM
In our old Faerun game, we found a spell, Thunder Lance, which we made into our Lightsabers. It has the ability to "Size" itself and does Force Damage I think. Its been a while since I've looked up the spell, but with Permanency you can make it a version of a Lightsaber.

Zaydos
2011-02-28, 11:27 AM
2d8 + Str (or 1.5 x Str if wielded two-handed) damage, ignore hardness, and make touch attacks.

Jedi Knights get a class bonus to damage that brings it up to 6d8 + Str (or 1.5 x Str if wielded two-handed) damage.

Really though it should be fire damage in D&D. Which auto ignores DR.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-28, 11:51 AM
Brilliant Energy makes a lightsaber useless against anything without a Constitution score, such as doors and droids.

Lightsabers can be kept lit by a Jedi when thrown, though it is more the Jedi's Force powers than the lightsaber itself, so it should not really be made Thrown.

I'd say that a lightsaber rolls attacks on someones touch AC since it cuts through nearly anything. Also I think the throw was the Jedi chucks it and uses the force to bring it back. I think having to hold the button down on the lightsaber would be too impratical.

Eldan
2011-02-28, 11:55 AM
2d8 + Str (or 1.5 x Str if wielded two-handed) damage, ignore hardness, and make touch attacks.

Jedi Knights get a class bonus to damage that brings it up to 6d8 + Str (or 1.5 x Str if wielded two-handed) damage.

Really though it should be fire damage in D&D. Which auto ignores DR.

But fire damage doesn't work very well against objects. So, it should probably be some kind of untyped energy damage.

Zaydos
2011-02-28, 11:57 AM
But fire damage doesn't work very well against objects. So, it should probably be some kind of untyped energy damage.

Hence it should still auto-ignore hardness. Even so we know it does damage via heat and that fire resistant objects are resistant and that lava worms are immune.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-28, 11:59 AM
If you ever watched StarWars, you've seen that it can cut through almost anything. I want my players to fight a villain from the future, and what better weapon haha! I wonder if I should make it automatically do Con damage or be Vorpal.

Im thinking 3d8.

It's a brilliant energy weapon, IMO.

And yeah, it wouldn't inherently do more than a regular sword on an unarmored person. The heat damage would mostly cancel out with the fact that you just cauterized their wounds.

Tvtyrant
2011-02-28, 12:03 PM
Now I want a lightsaber Duskblade...

hamishspence
2011-02-28, 02:16 PM
Hence it should still auto-ignore hardness. Even so we know it does damage via heat and that fire resistant objects are resistant and that lava worms are immune.

In Jedi Search, the lava worm was resistant, but not immune- a strike sent energy from the lightsaber ricocheting all around the cave, but only broke one small plate.

However, it turned out it wasn't immune to lava- a few moments after diving, it rose to the surface, being destroyed by the lava that had gotten in via that small hole, before exploding.

FMArthur
2011-02-28, 02:18 PM
Just slap the Corrosive and Flaming properties on a weapon. 1d6 Acid and 1d6 Fire damage on attack. No need to add all kinds of unbalancing special clauses; some of these sound like they're based more on how awesome you think Star Wars is than what a lightsaber's actual observed effects are. It doesn't cut through everything instantly or effortlessly and the beam acts like a fully solid object.

Benejeseret
2011-02-28, 02:44 PM
If you are making a Villain (not PC) why not use the Soulknife class?

Is it terrible....yes, for a PC

But on a villain you can simply make a gestalt villain and give it the free blade (with throw) on top of whatever other class you would otherwise want.

Even allow a Kensai/soulknife gestalt with whatever else you would otherwise have on the BBEG.

Why you ask - because PCs loot bodies. It's what they do. And this way they do not and can not get their hands on said light sabre.

FMArthur
2011-02-28, 03:33 PM
I don't think a Mind Blade is interchangeable with a lightsaber, though. It just doesn't have any of the same properties aside from being a weapon formed from energy. And I really wouldn't want to just handwave a custom class onto an NPC like gestalting does, whose abilities are more or less DM fiat from the players' perspective since it's unavailable to them and follows a different set of rules that they are allowed. And a lightsaber-esque weapon is usually something a player and not a DM would be specifically after anyway. :smallconfused:

Hyfigh
2011-02-28, 05:42 PM
This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) with a different energy souce would work well. Heck, even the flame itself works fine...

Ravens_cry
2011-02-28, 06:09 PM
This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) with a different energy souce would work well. Heck, even the flame itself works fine...
Maybe it should do Force damage. :smalltongue:

Hawriel
2011-02-28, 06:41 PM
look up the spell flame blade, make it a force effect. Enchant rod. finished. This is somthing I thought most gamers figured out 20 years ago.

OracleofWuffing
2011-02-28, 07:30 PM
If it's fire that damages fire, well, there's Searing Spell for that. :smallbiggrin: Really, lightsabers are just weaponlike Psionic and/or Magical Devices, and all Jedi are Rogues that don't get sneak attacks in because Yoda told them all that they were really samurai and then forgot he was lying due to his old age and feeble mind.

Knaight
2011-02-28, 10:09 PM
Just slap the Corrosive and Flaming properties on a weapon. 1d6 Acid and 1d6 Fire damage on attack. No need to add all kinds of unbalancing special clauses; some of these sound like they're based more on how awesome you think Star Wars is than what a lightsaber's actual observed effects are. It doesn't cut through everything instantly or effortlessly and the beam acts like a fully solid object.

No, but given that it cuts through blast doors it shouldn't have any trouble with mail, so a touch attack is reasonable. Highly advanced technology should have some advantage, after all.

Swordguy
2011-02-28, 10:59 PM
People comparing lightsabre damage to a longsword are forgetting a VERY important tidbit of information. All damage is not dealt equally. In Star Wars d20 (where people seem to be getting the 2d8/3d8-ish figure from), you are using a Vitality/Wound Point damage system - where non-major NPCs have only their Con Score in Vitality points, and where critical hits with a Lightsabre deal damage directly to aforementioned Wound Points.

This is massively different than the D&D hit point system. Lightsabres don't need to deal much damage under the WP/VP system because the VAST majority of targets are going to have 15 or less points of damage capacity anyway. And the Vitality system for PCs and important NPCs allows for a more extended fight in the vein of the film series. Luke hits a Stormtrooper, and the ST is DOWN in one swing (read: did Wound damage and dropped him), whereas his fights with Vader involve the chipping away of Vitality over multiple combat rounds until the pool is exhausted and Wound damage is dealt (usually involving the loss of a hand).

You can't just port the damage rating straight over from d20 and maintain any semblance of intellectual rigor. You have to compensate for the difference in intended lethality in the systems. Frankly, in D&D, I'd put the damage rating at something like:


Lightsabre, Tiny/Medium* elegant slashing weapon
Weight: 2 lbs
Proficiency: Exotic
Effects:Lightsabres deal percentages of damage, not specific values. The base damage a Lightsabre deals to an opponent is 10% of their total hit points, rounded up. For every level/CR the wielder is higher than the target, the lightsabre will deal an additional +1d20%.
---All Lightsabre Attacks are touch attacks, but will not ignore AC from "Force" effects, such as Mage Armor.
---Defensive Weapon: When using a Lightsabre to defend against other Lightsbare attacks, add 2/3 your BAB (rounded up) to your AC**
---Lightsabres subtract 20 from all hardness and DR ratings.
---A wielder may "trade in" the additional CR/level-based rolled damage (the roll must meet or exceed an additional 40%) to instead remove a limb (other than the head) of his choosing, with appropriate secondary effects as determined by the GM.
---A wielder may "trade in" the additional CR/level-based rolled damage (the roll must meet or exceed an additional 75%) to instead instantly kill the opponent, reducing their hit points to -10 and removing any limb if desired.
---When attacking with a lightsabre, the die with the lowest BAB (including the base BAB if the wielder is of a level to have no iterative attacks) may fumble on a roll of 1 - the die is rerolled and a fumble occurs if the second die roll is a 5 or below (15 or below if the wielder does not have proficiency with the weapon). A spent Force Point will cancel the fumble. This fumble deals 10% +5d10% of the wielder's hit point total. Lightsabres are dangerous, yo. Note that once iterative attacks are gained, the die with the lowest BAB need not be rolled when making a full attack; the wielder is sacrificing the additional attack to ensure he does not injure himself.

*Weapon is Tiny when not lit, and a Medium Weapon when lit. Lit Lightsabres cast a dim glow equivalent to torchlight with a radius of 5'.
**This is necessary to mimic the class-based AC increases from Star Wars; otherwise Lightsabres become almost auto-hit weapons what with D&D-style BAB scaling.

UserClone
2011-03-01, 01:06 AM
1dBodyparts.

Is it bad that I actually own one?
http://www.nobleknight.com/imagecode/resize.asp?filename=KOP12616.jpeg&width=0&height=0

HunterOfJello
2011-03-01, 01:09 AM
Would lightsabers lack the ability to easily cut through magical armor and shields similar to the magical lightsaber-deflecting handrails in Cloud City?

Cerlis
2011-03-01, 01:24 AM
A lightsabre doesnt cut through anything. and it doesnt kill anyone faster than a normal sword. if you stab someone in the heart or slice off someones head with a real sword or lightsabre, the effect is the same. the only difference is that a lightsabre can block a lightsabre and energy weapons. it can melt through metal and stone, and it cauturizes any wound it deals.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 03:49 AM
People comparing lightsabre damage to a longsword are forgetting a VERY important tidbit of information. All damage is not dealt equally. In Star Wars d20 (where people seem to be getting the 2d8/3d8-ish figure from), you are using a Vitality/Wound Point damage system - where non-major NPCs have only their Con Score in Vitality points, and where critical hits with a Lightsabre deal damage directly to aforementioned Wound Points.

This is massively different than the D&D hit point system.

I think Saga Edition dropped the Vitality/Wound Point system. How do they work in Saga?

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 05:45 AM
They deal 2d8 (or was it 3d8?) energy damage that ignores all DR and hardness. So against objects and tough creatures it still slices easily and with the right combo of feats and the like can be boosted to even kill high level characters with one hit without being stupidly overpowered early on in the game.

While saga lacks vitality points it does give you 3x HP at 1st level (if you took a heroic class). So if you are a jedi you start with 30hp before con bonus.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-01, 09:00 AM
.... Lightsabres are dangerous, yo. ...

*Weapon is Tiny when not lit, and a Medium Weapon when lit. Lit Lightsabres cast a dim glow equivalent to torchlight with a radius of 5'.
**This is necessary to mimic the class-based AC increases from Star Wars; otherwise Lightsabres become almost auto-hit weapons what with D&D-style BAB scaling.

Dude, you port the lightsaber into the system. You don't port the entire system to D&D.

Swords are also dangerous. You take a solid sword hit to a torso, and you're dead, IRL. Swords are portrayed as pretty dangerous in movies, as are lightsabers. In fact, lightsabers are merely a representation of a sword. Longsword or katana is pretty much what it is. A ported weapon is supposed to accurately represent the weapon within the new system...and thus, must adhere to the conceits of that system, such as hp damage.

Sure, it lights up, and goes through physical objects. Brilliant energy covers both.

FMArthur
2011-03-01, 09:13 AM
No, it acts entirely like a physical object, collision and all, it just eats through weak materials easily and can be used to rapidly wear down strong things over time. A property of any Corrosive weapon. A +1 Corrosive Flaming longsword need not literally have acid or be on fire; it just deals those two energy types in damage. Combine with the absolutely normal glow that magic swords can be made with simply as a side effect of enhancement and a Least Crystal of Return (300gp), and a you have a perfect Lightsaber replica.

It does not act like a Brilliant Energy weapon. Two lightsabers couldn't even collide if it were Brilliant Energy. If you want a glow, make it glow.

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 09:15 AM
Dude, you port the lightsaber into the system. You don't port the entire system to D&

If what you have in D&D after it's ported over don't match what a lightsabre should be able to do, then you don't have a lightsabre. You have a glowing longsword. OP asked for a lightsabre - that's about what it needs to do (translated over to D&D rules) to be considered one. As for their danger, you can hold a blade of a sword in your hand, of place the blade against your body given certain techniques. Try that with a lightsabre, and it'll end poorly for you - thus the requirement for a fumble rule. Lightsabres are explicitly fluffed as being potentially dangerous to their wielders, especially if they aren't highly-trained force-users.

If you just want a glowing longsword, then put a +1 enchantment on it and have have it glow.

FMArthur
2011-03-01, 09:20 AM
If what you have in D&D after it's ported over don't match what a lightsabre should be able to do, then you don't have a lightsabre. You have a glowing longsword. OP asked for a lightsabre - that's about what it needs to do (translated over to D&D rules) to be considered one. As for their danger, you can hold a blade of a sword in your hand, of place the blade against your body given certain techniques. Try that with a lightsabre, and it'll end poorly for you - thus the requirement for a fumble rule. Lightsabres are explicitly fluffed as being potentially dangerous to their wielders, especially if they aren't highly-trained force-users.

If you just want a glowing longsword, then put a +1 enchantment on it and have have it glow.

Okay, so it's an exotic longsword that takes extra practice. Double bladed swords and spiked chains don't have a chance to harm nonproficient wielders, though, so why should this? If what you want isn't reasonable in the system you're porting it to, why bother? Do you just want an overpowered weapon that disintegrates on contact?

Ossian
2011-03-01, 09:58 AM
No, it acts entirely like a physical object, collision and all, it just eats through weak materials easily and can be used to rapidly wear down strong things over time. A property of any Corrosive weapon. A +1 Corrosive Flaming longsword need not literally have acid or be on fire; it just deals those two energy types in damage. Combine with the absolutely normal glow that magic swords can be made with simply as a side effect of enhancement and a Least Crystal of Return (300gp), and a you have a perfect Lightsaber replica.

It does not act like a Brilliant Energy weapon. Two lightsabers couldn't even collide if it were Brilliant Energy. If you want a glow, make it glow.

It is essentially a super sharp blade that cuts effortlessly through flesh, bone, and personal armor (save for exotic alloys such as Vader's Armour, which was also Sith sorcery enhanced).

I would go for an exotic weapon.

Threat Range: 18-20 (very likely to do some serious damage, such as shearing off appendages. Seriously, you can't tell me that a plasma blade is not as good as a, say, rapier...).
Base damage 2d8 (as per SWRCR).
Ignored the first 20 points of DR (that is, blast doors and vehicles can last a bit longer)
Is a "flaming burst" weapon (IF there is a critical, that is a direct hit from a high energy plasma beam) you are likely to get REALLY hurt.
Ignores AC provided by all armor (that is, it's always a touch attack)
Is +4 at sundering attempts (you still have to aim, coordinate the blow, footwork etc...)
Does force damage.
If you use the force you can channel it through the blade crystal (Yoda and Mace Windu dealt some 7d8 damage per blow, and a force warrior prestige class feature would basically double the already high threat range).

O.

Darth Stabber
2011-03-01, 01:53 PM
Lightsaber's key advantages over swords (for the sake of argument Bastard Sword)

Omnidirectional cutting - you don't have to hit with a sharp side, it's all sharp side.

Shrinks for easy storage - you store a small tube, not a full sword

Cuts through metal easily - plasma is nice like that.

Reflects energy weapons - though really only useful to the precognicent.

and in SWSE a normal LS deals 2d8 energy damage (not fire).

Callos_DeTerran
2011-03-01, 02:00 PM
Welcome to the wonderfully ridiculous world of hit points. A sword that does 1d8 points of damage can cut an unarmored man in half from shoulder to hip in the real world, but in D&D that only works on first level characters with small hit dice.

Not that ridiculous considering hit points don't just represent how much hurtin' someone can take but their energy to dodge, evade, parry blows, etc. I've always seen massive amounts of hit dice as the character evading/dodging attacks down into like...the twenties or so of hit points when they'll actually start being injured.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 02:02 PM
It is essentially a super sharp blade that cuts effortlessly through flesh, bone, and personal armor (save for exotic alloys such as Vader's Armour, which was also Sith sorcery enhanced).

Depending on the author, "mandalorian iron" can provide at least some resistance, to mitigate a strike rather than completely stop it.

Phrik alloy, and cortosis alloy, are two of the better known ones.

Some biological materials have a degree of resistance too- like Vong amphistaffs.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-01, 02:09 PM
Okay, so it's an exotic longsword that takes extra practice. Double bladed swords and spiked chains don't have a chance to harm nonproficient wielders, though, so why should this? If what you want isn't reasonable in the system you're porting it to, why bother? Do you just want an overpowered weapon that disintegrates on contact?

This.

Also, yes, I agree that corrosive does model it more closely than brilliant. As for exotic, katana actually covers that nicely, and given that lightsaber combat was originally modeled on katana combat....it's terribly accurate. For non-standard lightsabers, feel free to use a different exotic weapon.

Omni-directionality isn't really a big thing. Hitting with the edge is extremely easy to pick up with a sword. The only difficulty is really in the parrying with katanas....but that's not even modeled in D&D, so it's not a worry.

I'm not gonna get into all the star-wars anti-lightsaber plot devices that have come up. Suffice it to say, there are a few of them.

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 05:05 PM
Okay, so it's an exotic longsword that takes extra practice. Double bladed swords and spiked chains don't have a chance to harm nonproficient wielders, though, so why should this? If what you want isn't reasonable in the system you're porting it to, why bother? Do you just want an overpowered weapon that disintegrates on contact?

I don't care about game balance. I want something that matches the fluff. If the fluff dictates that a lightsabre can do X, then it should be able to do X in game (up to, and including, severe damage to the wielder - which is explicitly and canonically why pretty much only Force-users wielded them).

OP asked how to represent a lightsabre in D&D. That's my way to do it. Take it, leave it, or put forth your own option that actually makes it a lightsabre, and not just a glowing sword you call a "lightsabre". Words have meaning.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:08 PM
I don't care about game balance. I want something that matches the fluff. If the fluff dictates that a lightsabre can do X, then it should be able to do X in game (up to, and including, severe damage to the wielder - which is explicitly and canonically why pretty much only Force-users wielded them).

And Boba Fett, in the EU.

Han uses Luke's to cut open the tauntaun in Episode V.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-01, 05:13 PM
Words have meaning.

Yes, they do. For example, lightsabre is a sabre that isn't very heavy. Lightsaber is the high-tech weapon Jedi traditionally use. :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2011-03-01, 05:16 PM
I keep presenting a weapon that does everything a lightsaber does, within the existing ruleset, and you keep ignoring it. It's very obvious at this point that all you want is a weapon that instant kills, or negates the system's scaling of hit points with character level for arbitrary reasons. That's not how lethal weapons are ever implemented in the system we're working with, no matter how lethal. But lightsabers are so lethal! Yeah. We get it. So are a truckload of other things. They are not special and usually don't even get special treatment within the rulesets of Star Wars-branded games, either. Why should they here?

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 05:18 PM
And Boba Fett, in the EU.

Don't know about that, since I haven't read the EU after the Kevin J Anderson novels. With the exception of the excellent Thrawn trilogy, though (and some of the X-wing novels), it was pretty much self-contradictory crap, and thus I discount it wholesale. Films, radio plays, scripts, movie novelizations - that's what I consider to be Star Wars. Everything else is just paid fan-fiction that Lucas can overrule whenever he feels like it.

And if that raises your hackles, I'll point out that Boba Fett is pretty much the author-fiat equivalent of Drizzt in the Star Wars universe. He's not a good subject to base the argument upon because there's nothing he evidently can't do (except dodge a blind guy's melee attack).


Han uses Luke's to cut open the tauntaun in Episode V.

The unstated part of that "pretty much nobody but force-users" statement (unstated because it was so obvious) was "...in combat". To the best of my knowledge, Han didn't engage the tauntaun in a death-duel prior to cutting it open. In fact, he was cutting open an already-dead target, and took his time doing so. Or did Lucas add in a CGI'd Han-Tauntaun duel in the Special Editions that I missed? :smallamused:

EDIT:

I keep presenting a weapon that does everything a lightsaber does, within the existing ruleset, and you keep ignoring it. It's very obvious at this point that all you want is a weapon that instant kills, or negates the system's scaling of hit points with character level for arbitrary reasons. That's not how lethal weapons are ever implemented in the system we're working with, no matter how lethal. But lightsabers are so lethal! Yeah. We get it. So are a truckload of other things. They are not special and usually don't even get special treatment within the rulesets of Star Wars-branded games, either. Why should they here?

If the system doesn't accurately represent the weapon, then the system needs to be changed or modified if the weapon MUST be included. For example, look at all the special rules Gygax wrote for lances - they worked totally outside the standard D&D ruleset (chance to break, extra damage on a charge, etc) because to accurately model the fluff, you had to ignore existing rules. I do nothing different.

And to clarify - I don't want anything. This isn't my thread. I'm giving the OP the option to have a set of rules that more accurately represents what the weapon can actually do (within its fictional universe) rather than just handwaving it and saying "it's a glowing sword that somehow has none of the properties we see a lightsabre actually demonstrate in the movies". Why is that so upsetting to you?

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:18 PM
The "10% of total hit points damage" bit is also pretty dubious- basically- it will mean that it only takes, at most, ten good hits to kill anything, even gigantic monsters.

Even in Star Wars material, there are references to creatures with thick hides being very difficult to take out with lightsabers- blows doing only superficial damage.


Films, radio plays, scripts, movie novelizations - that's what I consider to be Star Wars. Everything else is just paid fan-fiction that Lucas can overrule whenever he feels like it.

And some of the novelizations (most notably the Episode III one, considered one of the best) make reference to events in the books or comics.

Some characters are first referred to in movie novelizations- such as Darth Bane, in the Episode I novelization.

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 05:24 PM
The "10% of total hit points damage" bit is also pretty dubious- basically- it will mean that it only takes, at most, ten good hits to kill anything, even gigantic monsters.

Out of curiosity, how many hits does it take a power attacking, pouncing, frenzied berserker to take out pretty much any canon monster in the monster manual?

'Cause I'll bet it's less than 10...

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:32 PM
But that's generally a high level one- not a 1st level character.

For a weapon that can fairly rapidly kill anything in the game, to able to do this in the hands of even a low level character (if every strike hits) seems a bit OTT.

If you want a G-canon character, not force-sensitive, who is able to wield a lightsaber in battle without damaging himself- how about General Grievous?

As to the "in-combat" thing- the fumbling rules you listed said "when attacking with the weapon"- but whenever an object is attacked, even if the object can't move or attack back the player will be making an attack roll.

Using your rules, even if Han was attacking an object (like the corpse of a tauntaun) he would still have a chance to fumble and injure himself.

Which seems a bit excessively severe.

Saint GoH
2011-03-01, 05:35 PM
I think trying to label a lightsaber as a "+5 corrosive flaming burst brilliant energy bastard sword" is wrong because of one major account. A bastard sword you have to swing with a relative degree of force (as in, muscle needs to power the blade through an enemy). Yes, a bastard sword can chop a person in half, but the required strength to do so is ridiculous due to various obstructions causing friction i.e. muscles, tendons, bones, cartilage, miscellaneous organs.

A lightsaber on the other hand, is weightless. You don't need "power" so to speak, except when combating other lightsaber users. So yes, a lightsaber is more deadly then a sword. You need more training to wield one, but any turkey can pick up a saber and have it cut through a taun-taun's gut sack effortlessly.

The problem with using a lightsaber in D&D is there is almost no way to make it fair. Imagine this, "So yeah, this guy teleports back in time and has a glowy sword. You can't block it, it can shear through your torso like a hot knife through butter and he doesn't get tired from swinging it." Medieval combat relied on deflecting attacks, and you cannot deflect a lightsaber with medieval equipment.

So my idea of a lightsaber in D&D? Permanent Wraithstriked sword that everytime it hits you has a percentile based chance to lop off a limb, or kill you outright. Maybe make it a d6. 1-2 is Arms, 3-4 is legs, 5 is Torso, 6 is head. If you get hit by this thing you are boned, no two ways about it.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-01, 05:36 PM
If you want a G-canon character, not force-sensitive, who is able to wield a lightsaber in battle without damaging himself- how about General Grievous?

To be fair to Grievous, he was a cyborg and probably had preternaturally fast reflexes that allowed him to wield the lightsabers without harm.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:41 PM
A lightsaber on the other hand, is weightless. You don't need "power" so to speak, except when combating other lightsaber users.

there's still the issue of it bouncing off metal objects sometimes (like the aforementioned railings on the Death Star II.)

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 05:49 PM
But that's generally a high level one- not a 1st level character.

For a weapon that can fairly rapidly kill anything in the game, to able to do this in the hands of even a low level character (if every strike hits) seems a bit OTT.

Refresh my memory. How fast will a longsword hit kill a 1st level fighter? 1-3 hits sound about right to you? "That's a bit OTT", wouldn't you say?

Under these rules, lightsabres allow you to plow through mooks (people who are much lower-level than you, thus giving you the large damage bonus against them), but will still give you a good, drawn-out combat against somebody of equal level to you. Just like the movies. Using relative damage ensures this, rather than using absolute damage values.



Using your rules, even if Han was attacking an object (like the corpse of a tauntaun) he would still have a chance to fumble and injure himself.

Which seems a bit excessively severe.

To be fair, it'd be on a 1, and then (as a non-force user) on a 15 or less - so about a 3.75% chance. I feel that's fair, in that non-force users aren't supposed to use lightsabres very often, and it's a pretty small chance to begin with. Now, if ANY chance of a critical failure is too high, then we simply have different gaming styles, and I wouldn't want to share a table.

Oh, and I sure as heck wouldn't make a person roll an attack while they're deliberately taking their time to cut an unmoving corpse, regardless of what the "rules" say regarding taking 10 (etc). There's times and place to ignore the rules, and this is one of them.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:52 PM
Under these rules, lightsabres allow you to plow through mooks (people who are much lower-level than you, thus giving you the large damage bonus against them), but will still give you a good, drawn-out combat against somebody of equal level to you. Just like the movies. Using relative damage ensures this, rather than using absolute damage values.

It'll also give a fairly short combat against something vastly higher in Hit Dice than you.

Using the aforementioned rules, one could, say, fly into a space slug, start stabbing at its insides, and it'll be dead in 10 rounds.

The Wookieepedia explanation for lightsabers being extremely hard to control, is that "they generate a gyroscopic effect, requiring considerable strength and dexterity to control"

Except- Luke (who's never used a lightsaber before) doesn't seem to have much trouble in A New Hope, both when swinging it after Ben hands it to him for the first time, and the training exercise on the Falcon.

Saph
2011-03-01, 05:55 PM
For reference, the rules for a lightsaber in Star Wars Saga Edition (which is very compatible with 3.5) are:

Medium-size exotic melee weapon (requires Weapon Proficiency: Lightsabers)
Damage: 2d8 energy and slashing
Weight: 1 kg
Special: Ignores DR and hardness

Is there anything wrong with that? It seems like a pretty good representation to me . . . more damage than a sword, but not overwhelmingly so. (For reference, a blaster rifle does 3d8, but doesn't allow you to add your Strength modifier to damage the way a lightsaber does.)

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 05:58 PM
Seems reasonable. Even if it ignores hardness, the target object (such as a railing) still might have enough hit points to withstand one blow.

Do Saga Ed creatures have natural armour, which the saber does not ignore?

Saph
2011-03-01, 06:01 PM
In SW Saga the lightsaber doesn't ignore natural armour, no.

But then, in D20 games natural armour works against attacks like ballista bolts and the swing of a giant's club (which, realistically, should do enough damage through kinetic impact and crush injury to make armour irrelevant anyway).

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 06:02 PM
SAGA does not have AC or defense. Lightsabers attack your reflex defense which i 10+your heroic level (or armor bonus)+class mod+dex mod. Touch AC does not exist in SAGA.

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 06:02 PM
For reference, the rules for a lightsaber in Star Wars Saga Edition (which is very compatible with 3.5) are:

Medium-size exotic melee weapon (requires Weapon Proficiency: Lightsabers)
Damage: 2d8 energy and slashing
Weight: 1 kg
Special: Ignores DR and hardness

Is there anything wrong with that? It seems like a pretty good representation to me . . . more damage than a sword, but not overwhelmingly so. (For reference, a blaster rifle does 3d8, but doesn't allow you to add your Strength modifier to damage the way a lightsaber does.)

It's fine as long as you're using a VP/WP system. That's the difference here. NPCs in Star Wars don't generally have HUGE numbers of hit points; they have their Con Score in Wounds. Thus, 2d8 damage (which scales up to 5d8-ish at high level) is plenty to represent the lethality of the lightsabre. Compare that to, say, a Hill Giant. In D&D, it's got 102 HP. In Star Wars, if it wasn't a major Plot NPC, it'd have 19 Wound Points. That's it.

tl;dr (all my posts in this thread): 2d8 isn't equal across systems.

Saph
2011-03-01, 06:04 PM
It's fine as long as you're using a VP/WP system. That's the difference here. NPCs in Star Wars don't generally have HUGE numbers of hit points; they have their Con Score in Wounds. Thus, 2d8 damage (which scales up to 5d8-ish at high level) is plenty to represent the lethality of the lightsabre. Compare that to, say, a Hill Giant. In D&D, it's got 102 HP. In Star Wars, if it wasn't a major Plot NPC, it'd have 19 Wound Points. That's it.

tl;dr (all my posts in this thread): 2d8 isn't equal across systems.

Star Wars Saga doesn't actually have VP/WP - that's the previous edition. It just has the equivalent of normal HP, same as vanilla D&D - once you hit 0 you're unconscious.

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 06:05 PM
It's fine as long as you're using a VP/WP system. That's the difference here. NPCs in Star Wars don't generally have HUGE numbers of hit points; they have their Con Score in Wounds. Thus, 2d8 damage (which scales up to 5d8-ish at high level) is plenty to represent the lethality of the lightsabre. Compare that to, say, a Hill Giant. In D&D, it's got 102 HP. In Star Wars, if it wasn't a major Plot NPC, it'd have 19 Wound Points. That's it.

tl;dr (all my posts in this thread): 2d8 isn't equal across systems.

SAGA does not use a wound/vitality system. SAGA characters do have a lot of HP since they get x3 HP at first level (if picking up a heroic class).

EDIT: Sentinelled.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 06:06 PM
SAGA does not have AC or defense. Lightsabers attack your reflex defense which i 10+your heroic level (or armor bonus)+class mod+dex mod. Touch AC does not exist in SAGA.


The fact that Reflex Defense includes armor bonuses, makes it pretty similar to AC.

Swordguy
2011-03-01, 06:08 PM
Gah - it's almost word-for-word identical to the Star Wars d20 lightsabre entry. Sorry 'bout that.

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 06:10 PM
The fact that Reflex Defense includes armor bonuses, makes it pretty similar to AC.

Armor replaces your heroic bonus so armor hurts you at higher levels unless you invest in the soldier class and take the talents that allow you to use whichever is better and then another talent to use half of your armor bonus with your heroic level. Combine that with dex restrictions on armor and armor is relatively rare outside of the low levels.

It is similar to AC but it is very different since most of your defense comes from your class levels not your equipment.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 06:13 PM
Hmm- if a guy with a lightsaber, and a guy with a more ordinary melee weapon, both go up against different krayt dragons- will they guy with the lightsaber take only a little less time to kill the dragon?

If so- that would suggest that in Saga, lightsabers aren't vastly better at killing big creatures, than ordinary weapons are.

I don't think Saga has fumble rules for lightsabers, either.



It is similar to AC but it is very different since most of your defense comes from your class levels not your equipment.

Making armour not stack with "heroic levels" for defenses, does make a difference.

4E D&D has something like the "heroic levels" system (you add half your level to all defenses) but that stacks with armour.

Saph
2011-03-01, 06:17 PM
Hmm- if a guy with a lightsaber, and a guy with a more ordinary melee weapon, both go up against different krayt dragons- will they guy with the lightsaber take only a little less time to kill the dragon?

Basically, yes. A big regular sword does about 1d8 damage, and also benefits from your level damage bonus, so if you've got a good Strength and a few melee talents, you can do about 70%-80% as much damage with a regular sword as with a lightsaber.

The reason lightsabers are good is defence, not offence - being able to parry blaster bolts and melee attacks is a real lifesaver. (Plus, they're still objectively better than a longsword if you happen to have the proficiency already, as Jedi do.)

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 06:21 PM
Hmm- if a guy with a lightsaber, and a guy with a more ordinary melee weapon, both go up against different krayt dragons- will they guy with the lightsaber take only a little less time to kill the dragon?

If so- that would suggest that in Saga, lightsabers aren't vastly better at killing big creatures, than ordinary weapons are.

I don't think Saga has fumble rules for lightsabers, either.



Making armour not stack with "heroic levels" for defenses, does make a difference.

4E D&D has something like the "heroic levels" system (you add half your level to all defenses) but that stacks with armour.

A big reason that 4e D&D uses half level and magical armor (with masterwork) is that using armor is customary for fantasy games. Armor is not customary in starwars for the most part except if you are a mook. This is just my reasoning I do not think this ha ever been talked about officially in detail.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 06:22 PM
yes- making them good is fine- but having them have a moderate chance of killing even high level enemies instantly, or of severing their limbs, might be overdoing it.

Saga style lightsabers seem like a more reasonable way to handle it- good without being over the top.

(Unless there's a lot of "Sever Limb" and "Decapitate" talents?)

Saph
2011-03-01, 06:25 PM
(Unless there's a lot of "Sever Limb" and "Decapitate" talents?)

Only one, and it only works if you'd have dropped them to 0 HP anyway. :P

Lightsabers aren't actually all that lethal in Saga. Compare that to the West End Games d6 Star Wars, where a lightsaber used in conjunction with the Lightsaber Combat power by a mid-to-high-level Jedi was absurdly lethal - it did something like 10D damage (which, against an average character with 3D Strength, would almost invariably kill in one hit).

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 06:29 PM
Yes- I think the Saga level of power is probably better for translating to D&D though.

Hmm- another way of looking at it- how would D&D characters translate into Saga?

My guess is that fighters would tend to have armor talents- though full plate might grant a lower bonus than it does in D&D.

LOTRfan
2011-03-01, 06:46 PM
How would you fluff a lightsaber using the saga stats in a D&D setting? A magical weapon of pure force?

How much does the lightsaber cost in credits, anyway?

Knaight
2011-03-01, 06:49 PM
Hmm- another way of looking at it- how would D&D characters translate into Saga?
One rebuilds from the concept up. SAGA works well for fantasy, as seen here (http://fantasy-saga.wikidot.com/). Though that particular link wasn't what I was looking for, and as such might not be as good as the intended example.

MeeposFire
2011-03-01, 06:49 PM
Only one, and it only works if you'd have dropped them to 0 HP anyway. :P

Lightsabers aren't actually all that lethal in Saga. Compare that to the West End Games d6 Star Wars, where a lightsaber used in conjunction with the Lightsaber Combat power by a mid-to-high-level Jedi was absurdly lethal - it did something like 10D damage (which, against an average character with 3D Strength, would almost invariably kill in one hit).

I remember a thread showing this

Vornskyr's Ferocity, a [Dark Side] Lightsaber Form Power that didn't exist at the time of Palpatine's writeup.
Improved Dark Rage, a Force Technique that didn't exist at the time of Palpatine's writeup.

"Put them all together and you get 6D8+16 or an average of 43 damage. Triple it and we have an average of 129 (upwards to almost 200). The three Jedi masters he killed had 120-150 HP.
So yeah, Palpatine's skill had EVERYTHING to do with it. This is just one of the many ways that scene can be accurately depicted by the rules. Destiny Points were a factor"

So lightsabers can be very lethal to even high level jedi masters in SAGA and it still works out.

Xuc Xac
2011-03-01, 08:37 PM
Not that ridiculous considering hit points don't just represent how much hurtin' someone can take but their energy to dodge, evade, parry blows, etc. I've always seen massive amounts of hit dice as the character evading/dodging attacks down into like...the twenties or so of hit points when they'll actually start being injured.

That explanation always falls apart as soon as it's time to heal...

tyckspoon
2011-03-01, 08:57 PM
That explanation always falls apart as soon as it's time to heal...

Hit points basically only work as a pure abstraction/video-game type health meter. If you try to realize them into the world in any way, they stop making any kind of sense. Although you can kind of make them work if you pick your favorite interpretation and then rewrite the fluff of everything that deals with them to support that (or just embrace the silliness of it all in certain interpretations, such as "all HP are physical damage, and all healing is mending physical wounds", which means pretty much any hero can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage, shed huge amounts of blood, and has high-speed regeneration even without magical healing. It's consistent, at least, but it's rather sillier than a lot of people want to play.)

Sir_Chivalry
2011-03-01, 10:15 PM
Longsword. 1d8, 19-20/x2.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-01, 10:53 PM
Hit points basically only work as a pure abstraction/video-game type health meter. If you try to realize them into the world in any way, they stop making any kind of sense. Although you can kind of make them work if you pick your favorite interpretation and then rewrite the fluff of everything that deals with them to support that (or just embrace the silliness of it all in certain interpretations, such as "all HP are physical damage, and all healing is mending physical wounds", which means pretty much any hero can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage, shed huge amounts of blood, and has high-speed regeneration even without magical healing. It's consistent, at least, but it's rather sillier than a lot of people want to play.)
One of my favorite interpretations is "Hit points are a measurement of your temporary invulnerability until the slightest paper cut knocks you unconscious from blood loss." :smallbiggrin:

Cerlis
2011-03-01, 11:26 PM
one issue is confusing the fluff.

against a dragon the difference between a long sword and a lightsabre is the fire damage a lightsabre would do (which would be irrelivant to a red dragon), and the fact that the dragons AC and DR would negate the sword mostly. a lightsabre stated that way would ignore the DR, and not sure if they are treated as touch but they should be. so that perfectly shows the ability for someone to drag a lightsabre through the hide of a dragon.

another issue is the fact that in the stories jedi are depicted as slicing off hands and heads left and right. this is a bit of fluff not present in DnD. called shots and severed limps are optional rules. Force users are essentially just getting a critical hit and the DM rules that they are cutting off their head or arm or whatever, or maybe it was a called shot. Even though lightsabres cut more easily a 1 with a normal sword many/most dms will still have a good chance of saying you screwed up and cut yourself. the only issue is that since a lighsabre does an extra D8 of dmg and ignores armor, that you'd lose your leg rather than have your sword get stuck in it.


Originally Posted by tyckspoon
Hit points basically only work as a pure abstraction/video-game type health meter. If you try to realize them into the world in any way, they stop making any kind of sense. Although you can kind of make them work if you pick your favorite interpretation and then rewrite the fluff of everything that deals with them to support that (or just embrace the silliness of it all in certain interpretations, such as "all HP are physical damage, and all healing is mending physical wounds", which means pretty much any hero can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage, shed huge amounts of blood, and has high-speed regeneration even without magical healing. It's consistent, at least, but it's rather sillier than a lot of people want to play.)

and actually i think my description of how hitpoints and critical hits worked in that thread about vorpal weapons covered it pretty well. but i didnt see anyone comment on it so i dont know.