full nights rest

[hivedragon]

I was thinking of having a full nights rest completly refill a character's hitpoints.
Also they won't have to roll fo hp, for example a barbarian gets 12+con and a sorcerer gets 4+con.

how would this affect my game? would I have to change anything?

[Fenryr]

Eveyone has more HP. Therefore, enemies should have the same change, I guess.

A full night rest would make the world a less dangerous place. Just survive the day, use a spell to avoid attacks at night (there are a couple) and voila! No scars, no danger in the days of yesterday. I don't recommend this idea of full healing in a night.

[Last Laugh]

Eveyone has more HP. Therefore, enemies should have the same change, I guess.

A full night rest would make the world a less dangerous place. Just survive the day, use a spell to avoid attacks at night (there are a couple) and voila! No scars, no danger in the days of yesterday. I don't recommend this idea of full healing in a night.

I don't see how it's that different from one of the many ways to get full health out of combat.

I like that it allows parties to adventure easier without a magic user, you could have a party of 12 fighters and never need a cure light wounds. This also takes a little weight off the shoulders of clerics/casters.

I am quite fond of the full heal idea, Instead of overnight make it be 8 hours of rest.

[Fenryr]

I don't see how it's that different from one of the many ways to get full health out of combat.

You have to expend resources: spells, wands, a special build, etc. With this, you only sleep. It may be worth in a low magic campaign or if there's no spellcaster in the party. But assuming it's a balanced party, I don't like the idea.

[KillianHawkeye]

4e gives full healing after an extended rest and it seems to work fine.

[tyckspoon]

You have to expend resources: spells, wands, a special build, etc. With this, you only sleep. It may be worth in a low magic campaign or if there's no spellcaster in the party. But assuming it's a balanced party, I don't like the idea.

A wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor is a completely trivial resource past about level 2, and unless you are both taking crazy amounts of damage and levelling very slowly that one wand should last you for 2-3 levels. Out of combat healing is perhaps one of the least expensive 'problems' to solve in D&D; if you already accept the CLW curestick, letting people stop doing that bookkeeping and just heal up when they sleep isn't that big a step.

[Narren]

It would really kill the verisimilitude for me. Going from the brink of death to bright and chipper in 8 hours because I took a nap just feels too video-gamey in my mind.

[Amnestic]

It would really kill the verisimilitude for me. Going from the brink of death to bright and chipper in 8 hours because I took a nap just feels too video-gamey in my mind.

As opposed to tapping someone with a stick and having them go from the brink of death to bright and chipper in 60-90 seconds? :smalltongue:

[Safety Sword]

As opposed to tapping someone with a stick and having them go from the brink of death to bright and chipper in 60-90 seconds? :smalltongue:

It's magic. That's what it does. But at least you have to do SOMETHING. Spend some resources.

[Kylarra]

It's easily handwaved by saying "it's magic" for the PCs to be healed overnight too. Maybe the teddybear they sleep with has cure minor wounds as a use activated ability triggered on hugging. :smallwink:

[MightyPirate]

It's easily handwaved by saying "it's magic" for the PCs to be healed overnight too. Maybe the teddybear they sleep with has cure minor wounds as a use activated ability triggered on hugging. :smallwink:

I know mine does that anyway. :smallwink:

[Narren]

As opposed to tapping someone with a stick and having them go from the brink of death to bright and chipper in 60-90 seconds? :smalltongue:

Yeah, one is magic, the other is a nap.

[Narren]

It's easily handwaved by saying "it's magic" for the PCs to be healed overnight too. Maybe the teddybear they sleep with has cure minor wounds as a use activated ability triggered on hugging. :smallwink:

I wouldn't object to some sort of magic item, ability, or spell that healed a person while they rested. But if the ENTIRE population benefits from this, it would change the feel of the world too much for me.

[tyckspoon]

I wouldn't object to some sort of magic item, ability, or spell that healed a person while they rested. But if the ENTIRE population benefits from this, it would change the feel of the world too much for me.

If you assume the majority of the world's population is Commoners, they already heal fully or almost fully from at most 1 day's worth of medical attention (although largely because they have a very short spread from 'incapacitated and possibly bleeding out' to 'completely healthy.')

[dariathalon]

The biggest problem I see with this is that it greatly contributes to the 15 minute workday for you average adventurer. I mean think about it...

Characters get back to full after a night's rest. Why bother wasting resources that you won't get back to restore hit points that you will?

Compound this with the fact that characters now have more hp. More hp means that healing will have comparably less benefit. (For example: Normally at 2nd level fighters have ~20 hp, 10 + 5 + 2*Con. This takes 2 charges from a Lesser Vigor Wand to get up to full. Now a 2nd level fighter has upwards of 25 hp 2*(10+Con) which from zero would take 3 charges.)

So really, why waste resources that have less benefit to regain hp that you'll get back in the AM anyway? Just have a fight or two and find a place to rest for a night. Unless you have LOTS of really great ideas to combat this problem (or, I suppose, don't consider this a problem at all*) be prepared to face parties doing this.

[FMArthur]

I do this with my groups to no ill effect. I can't imagine it being too uncommon a houserule - or even a simple mistaken assumption that many groups make. The effect is, like progressively cheaper healing over 3.5's lifespan, that it doesn't force anything on the group's character building and choices anymore. Does it break verisimilitude for you to contrive a Cleric or equivalent into every single adventuring party you ever make? :smallannoyed:

[Amnestic]

Yeah, one is magic, the other is a nap.

Is it just a nap, or is it a nap in a magical world with magic permeating the very air around you, where wands can be commonplace and monsters both mythical and magical walk the (many) planes?

[Narren]

If you assume the majority of the world's population is Commoners, they already heal fully or almost fully from at most 1 day's worth of medical attention (although largely because they have a very short spread from 'incapacitated and possibly bleeding out' to 'completely healthy.')

That's true. I was thinking more along the lines of war, and how it would change the dynamics of an army. No more tents full of wounded soldiers, no more brave hero's fighting the brink of death after a major battle. I'm trying to think of more examples, but I'm half asleep right now.

[FMArthur]

If you need to call it out with your players and justify it in the game world, do any of the following:

The gods are interested in your survival.
You each own a magic bedroll.
You're heroes, and therefore really really resiliant.
You're *******s, and therefore really really persistent.
Your mages have magical healing talents that don't translate to instant HP rejuvination and involve merely lengthy rituals instead of spells.
The previous day, no matter what, was always a dream.
You are adventuring in a mysterious plane whose properties are still unknown to you and affect you differently than the natives.
Epic Clerics really are intelligent and nice.
HP is abstract and represents physical harm less and less as you grow stronger.

[Narren]

Does it break verisimilitude for you to contrive a Cleric or equivalent into every single adventuring party you ever make? :smallannoyed:

Not really. I certainly wouldn't crawl around in a dungeon filled with stuff trying to kill me without some means of healing (assuming it existed). Actually, I don't even drive around town without a first aid kit in my trunk.

[Narren]

The biggest problem I see with this is that it greatly contributes to the 15 minute workday for you average adventurer. I mean think about it...

Characters get back to full after a night's rest. Why bother wasting resources that you won't get back to restore hit points that you will?

Compound this with the fact that characters now have more hp. More hp means that healing will have comparably less benefit. (For example: Normally at 2nd level fighters have ~20 hp, 10 + 5 + 2*Con. This takes 2 charges from a Lesser Vigor Wand to get up to full. Now a 2nd level fighter has upwards of 25 hp 2*(10+Con) which from zero would take 3 charges.)

So really, why waste resources that have less benefit to regain hp that you'll get back in the AM anyway? Just have a fight or two and find a place to rest for a night. Unless you have LOTS of really great ideas to combat this problem (or, I suppose, don't consider this a problem at all*) be prepared to face parties doing this.

I refuse to allow a 15 minute workday. There are plenty of situational solutions to solve this. It gives the enemy time to prepare, set up ambushes, bring in reinforcements, spy on the party, flee (and take their gold/magic items/macguffin with them), or anything else that would make sense.

[tyckspoon]

That's true. I was thinking more along the lines of war, and how it would change the dynamics of an army. No more tents full of wounded soldiers, no more brave hero's fighting the brink of death after a major battle. I'm trying to think of more examples, but I'm half asleep right now.

But..these things already don't exist, because of how HP works. You'd have to institute actual wound penalties, things that couldn't be removed just by healing HP (I dunno.. quick and dirty, if you've been knocked below 0 HP you suffer a penalty as if you had a negative level. This is removed by first healing to full and then either receiving additional HP restoration or going through an extra day/week/time period under the care of a healer? So you can cycle people out of immediate care pretty quick, but if you send them back to the field too many times they become useless without an extended convalescence.) Without something like that, a 1st level Warrior who gets knocked to -9 is back on his feet and combat-capable in 3 days (4 hp/level/day under full rest and medical care, ie, being in the hospital) and is at full HP and might even be able to absorb 2 hits before falling over again in 5. And that's a guy who was as close as he can be to being dead without actually biting it; if you believe in HP-as-physical-damage, he took a mortal wound, was barely saved, and is back up and about as if nothing had happened less than a week later.

Edit: And the brave hero is either dead or mechanically certain to make a full recovery. Once somebody gets to him and starts throwing Heal checks at him, or just plasters a Blessed Bandage over his face, he's fine. Might not be good for a fight, but he's in absolutely no danger of dying from his injuries after the battle.

[Narren]

But..these things already don't exist, because of how HP works. You'd have to institute actual wound penalties, things that couldn't be removed just by healing HP (I dunno.. quick and dirty, if you've been knocked below 0 HP you suffer a penalty as if you had a negative level. This is removed by first healing to full and then either receiving additional HP restoration or going through an extra day/week/time period under the care of a healer? So you can cycle people out of immediate care pretty quick, but if you send them back to the field too many times they become useless without an extended convalescence.) Without something like that, a 1st level Warrior who gets knocked to -9 is back on his feet and combat-capable in 3 days (4 hp/level/day under full rest and medical care, ie, being in the hospital) and is at full HP and might even be able to absorb 2 hits before falling over again in 5. And that's a guy who was as close as he can be to being dead without actually biting it; if you believe in HP-as-physical-damage, he took a mortal wound, was barely saved, and is back up and about as if nothing had happened less than a week later.

The hit point system if far from perfect, but an overnight insta-heal with no in game explanation takes my battered verisimilitude out back and shoots it in the head.

I feel better about a soldier going from brink of death to fully restored in 5 days than I do 8 hours. And it would take even longer without hospitalization.

edit: yeah, that is a good point. I think I'm looking at the in-game implications (which the current system has already screwed up when you take five seconds to think about it) and not so much the crunch of it.

[Safety Sword]

It still doesn't make sense to me. Stab wounds and bite shredded flesh healing overnight with 8 hours rest on a cold stone dungeon floor... no thanks.

Anyway, make the damn cleric heal you. It's what they were supposed to do before even thinking about DMM Persisting all the best spells and being the pseudo wizard encounter destroyer :tongue:

[dark.sun.druid]

I do this with my groups to no ill effect. I can't imagine it being too uncommon a houserule - or even a simple mistaken assumption that many groups make. The effect is, like progressively cheaper healing over 3.5's lifespan, that it doesn't force anything on the group's character building and choices anymore. Does it break verisimilitude for you to contrive a Cleric or equivalent into every single adventuring party you ever make? :smallannoyed:


I don't see how it's that different from one of the many ways to get full health out of combat.

I like that it allows parties to adventure easier without a magic user, you could have a party of 12 fighters and never need a cure light wounds. This also takes a little weight off the shoulders of clerics/casters.

I am quite fond of the full heal idea, Instead of overnight make it be 8 hours of rest.

I'm going to have to agree with these two. If you have an adventuring party with no clerics/favored souls/paladins/et cetera, then I would say feel free to use this rule. I can imagine not having a cleric in every adventuring party, especially if the party is a band of lawless mercenaries or rogues. If you have clerics/favored souls/paladins/et cetera however, I would hesitate to do so though, as it diminishes their role in the party. Sure, they would still be good for turn/rebuking, at least the clerics and paladins, but they're outclassed in pretty much every other area, excluding healing (arcane casters have more damaging spells, fighters/barbarians are better at DPS and tanking out damage, et cetera) which this proposal would be cutting out.

[Silva Stormrage]

It may end up being like this.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/05/13/episode-420-be-excellent-to-each-other/
:smallbiggrin:

It does strain credibility and I personally wouldn't use it unless the group had absolutely no way of healing. I would suggest asking what the players are playing before implementing it.

[Kantolin]

Usually we don't even really math out how many times the cleric has to spend the remainder of his spells to heal the party, we're just assumed to have done that before we sleep.

Do you guys really sit there and have the cleric roll out each of his cure potato wounds spells for healing you to full before he gets his spells back?

You sleep, you wake up, everyone's fully healed and you have your spells back, moving onto the dragon rescuing and princess slaying!

[Edhelras]

Huh. To me, the balancing of expenditure of healing means (potions, items, spells and good ol' night of sleep) against the prospect of starting a new day with less-than-full Hp is some of the fun. Something that makes me really appreciate the value of having a Cleric in the party, the necessity of providing a safe and hidden resting area, and that often can give room for entire days spent healing - during which for instance scroll writing or spellbook updating can occur. And which gives the DM an opportunity for re-populating cleared dungeons with reinforcements - all of which can increase the fun (i.e. challenges to the party) derived from one single location.
But this is matter of taste, obviously.

If you want to increase the health benefit of resting, have your Cleric cast Healthful rest, a lvl 1 Clr spell that doubles the healing benefit of a night's rest (2 HP per lvl). From lvl 4 the spell can include a party of 4.

If you introduce full healing for the Party - you can face some consequences:

- the party may decide to go without a Healer. If it's a small party (2 or 3 players) that might be OK, but with a larger party, that could mean for instance a party stronger on arcane firepower or tanks than you expected.

- any Healer in the party might be less cautious about expending his spells during combat, because he didn't need to save any for the bed-time routine. This would increase the buffing or offensive spellpower of the Party.

- the DM could in some instance get a problem with a too-fast-moving Party, because the need for sleep and/or days spent in a secure camp would be reduced. So it might influence the pacing and logistics of NPCs maneuvers.

- think about the impact on certain mechanisms like Disease - possibly, the party would be ready to move on more quickly - and a disease with incubation period would manifest not while they're safely in camp, but in the middle of a very dangerous encounter.

- the RP and NPC interaction of the game might be affected: With HP a limited resource, it's easier for the DM to use PCs seeking healing as a source of NPC interaction, to deal out plot information or to allow particular characters a chance to shine. The more self-sufficient the Party is, the less impetus they have to seek contact with NPCs.

- the credibility thing. But then's I'm a RL doctor and these things mean a lot to me, personally... :smallwink:

[hewhosaysfish]

The previous day, no matter what, was always a dream.
:smallbiggrin: I like this idea. Almost like a Groundhog Day kinda deal.
Wouldn't work for every campaign but I'm going to add that to my list of 'things that would be cool to base a campaign around'.

Epic Clerics really are intelligent and nice.
Mulitclass Ninja-Clerics Swordsage-Clerics! They sneak in and heal you while you sleep but no-one ever see them...

HP is abstract and represents physical harm less and less as you grow stronger.


http://files.sharenator.com/i_see_what_you_did_there_RE_Anyone_else_see_it-s450x545-95526.jpg

[FMArthur]

I just don't see any of those limitations increasing the fun of the game. I make adventures, and on adventures the party can't dally as much as they please because bad things happen - even 100% uncaring, self-serving parties are concerned when people that hate them become more powerful, come ever closer to tracking them down, and start taking out the few kingdoms where they are welcome. Hell, even an isolated dungeon should have people interested in making sure the PCs don't get to kill them and take their stuff. If they've acted against them at all they can't expect safety in a 15-minute adventuring day just because they have Rope Trick, because enemies at least know about magic or even have access to their own.

It doesn't make even the most dedicated of healers feel redundant. Healing Belts are still the most popular item by a longshot. People still make full-time-healer Clerics in my groups, and the party is always better off for it, regardless of how easily they recover when in total safety. Maybe they'll start doing something interesting with their spells. I don't mind the variety. It's not like other spellcasters aren't already being battle-deciders and it's not like the melee brutes aren't already super-buff killing machines.

You can't force their dependency on NPC interaction just by being a stickler about this sort of thing, because then you're just railroading a group for not bringing a Cleric and your plot just falls on its face if they do decide to bring one.

[Serpentine]

As a somewhat in-between option, in my game a character heals their character level + Con mod overnight. Always seemed just plain dumb to me that Constitution wasn't involved in natural healing at all...

[Killer Angel]

4e gives full healing after an extended rest and it seems to work fine.

precisely ...but it's one of the things I dislike in 4e. :smallwink:


It still doesn't make sense to me. Stab wounds and bite shredded flesh healing overnight with 8 hours rest on a cold stone dungeon floor... no thanks.


Pretty much this. I don't like it, and it doesn't sounds good to me.
Please note that it's about my personal tastes: we have examples where mighty heroes, turned back at full efficiency, after few hours of sleep (Conan, anyone?), so I'm fine with anyone doing it... only, it doesn't fit my playstyle.

[jpreem]

It depends how do you define hit points. ( They being a quite abstract thing in themselves). If we say that only negative hitpoints are actual injury then a good nights rest restoring hitpoints does not seem so bad. ( I would't let them heal off the negative hitpoints so easily in that case though - they would indeed be a gashing wounds/deep burns etc. and would need some long time good care ( heal checks) or magic to heal)

[Kylarra]

Well, I think the OP has gotten his answer. Mechanically, full-heal affects pretty much nothing, but it hurts the fluff for some people, so check with your group.

[Darakonis]

I was thinking of having a full nights rest completly refill a character's hitpoints.
Also they won't have to roll fo hp, for example a barbarian gets 12+con and a sorcerer gets 4+con.

how would this affect my game? would I have to change anything?

Sounds to me like you want to play 4th edition. Have you looked into it?

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Geiger Counter]

Sounds to me like you want to play 4th edition. Have you looked into it?

Peace,
-Darakonis

That's a bit odd to say
I play 4e it has somethings I like and somethings I don't.
Im currently trying to hybred the systems

[Hawriel]

It's magic. That's what it does. But at least you have to do SOMETHING. Spend some resources.

In the OPs change you still have to do somthing. Have a full nights rest. Seing there are plenty of things that will prevent a person from having a full nights rest I dont see his change being a problem. Add in the fact that wile out adventuring characters keep watch, thus preventing them from having a full nights rest. Attempting to sleep a full eight hours in a dungeon is not exaclty a safe thing to do.

[Ravens_cry]

In the OPs change you still have to do somthing. Have a full nights rest. Seing there are plenty of things that will prevent a person from having a full nights rest I dont see his change being a problem. Add in the fact that wile out adventuring characters keep watch, thus preventing them from having a full nights rest. Attempting to sleep a full eight hours in a dungeon is not exaclty a safe thing to do.
Two words, Rope Trick.
Personally, I don't like this idea, unless I was playing a game that more or less explicitly was a dungeon crawl with little to no narrative structure, just an old school hack and slash.
I find it a little amusing, though admittedly I do the same thing myself, that in low magic campaigns, which is done usually to make things more 'realistic', people make changes that are even less realistic then something explicitly magic so the game is playable again. Like the instant heal politicises of Warhammer FRPG, or the idea that sleeping a night will heal all wounds.
I think expanding the heal skill would be better, then the Trauma Inn trope, in my opinion.

[Roderick_BR]

It's easily handwaved by saying "it's magic" for the PCs to be healed overnight too. Maybe the teddybear they sleep with has cure minor wounds as a use activated ability triggered on hugging. :smallwink:
I'm tottaly making a magic item like that. Minor Vigor would work great. Its effect ceases when you stop holding it or is awake.

[Kantolin]

Two words, Rope Trick.

But then they're spending resources, which it's been stated means it's okay.

Meh, if your party seems like they'd be unhappy with sleep-you're healed, just give them a wand of unlimited cure minor wounds and move on with your life. Or a sacred item of Pelor that, when relaxed over an eight power period, heals the party. Or something, same general effect.

[zenon]

I was thinking of having a full nights rest completly refill a character's hitpoints.
Also they won't have to roll fo hp, for example a barbarian gets 12+con and a sorcerer gets 4+con.

how would this affect my game? would I have to change anything?

About using full hit die I think it works just fine, I do it myself and my players need it. This might be because they aren't optimized in any way (their own choice).

[acemcjack]

How about this:

A full night's rest doubles your current HP.

So, if you're on the brink of death, it's going to take a few days till you fully recover, whereas if you've lost up to half your HP, you fully recover the next day.

[Ravens_cry]

But then they're spending resources, which it's been stated means it's okay.

Even without this, many parties I know of rope trick the night away, so they aren't spending resources they wouldn't already.

[Narren]

It may end up being like this.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/05/13/episode-420-be-excellent-to-each-other/
:smallbiggrin:

I was wondering when that would pop up.

[Safety Sword]

In the OPs change you still have to do somthing. Have a full nights rest. Seing there are plenty of things that will prevent a person from having a full nights rest I dont see his change being a problem. Add in the fact that wile out adventuring characters keep watch, thus preventing them from having a full nights rest. Attempting to sleep a full eight hours in a dungeon is not exaclty a safe thing to do.

There's also another reason. Now your characters will load up on every combat spell available. They don't need to heal as long as they can rest (see: Rope Trick). So, now your encounters are that much easier as well.

Each to their own I guess, but it doesn't make sense to me, personally.

[Kantolin]

Even without this, many parties I know of rope trick the night away, so they aren't spending resources they wouldn't already.

Then your party is already spending resources to ensure they can fully heal each night? If they're guaranteed safety in a rope trick, then why does it matter if you can just move onto 'the next morning', or if you have to interrupt your story for 'UMD character, please repeat 'I use my wand of lesser vigor' eight or nine times'.

If they're not guaranteed safety in a rope trick, then it's a nonissue.

(If you're unhappy with the spell rope trick, now, that's a topic for a different... uh, topic, but is neither here nor there with sleeping healing you to full).


There's also another reason. Now your characters will load up on every combat spell available. They don't need to heal as long as they can rest (see: Rope Trick). So, now your encounters are that much easier as well.

Nobody has to memorize cure spells anyway*. Healing at night would not change how many healing spells you memorize in the morning. It'd make wands of lesser vigor less valuable.

I mean... most groups heal up every evening regardless. I don't think I've ever been in a game where people ended up waking up the next morning without being healed up, except in unusual circumstances (A necropolis), which could just as logically mean you couldn't just rest to heal to full either.

All this change would do is make it so you don't have to do the additional bookkeeping.

I think, in the end though, Kylarra nailed it. There are no mechanical troubles with it, but outright saying 'sleeping heals you to full' causes some people to have trouble with the fluff aspect. :P The amount of people commenting that they dislike it encourages that analysis.

Thus, if you don't want to deal with it, either talk to your group beforehand, or give them a magic item that does what you're aiming for with an emphasis that it's powerful magic.

(*Mild Addendum: This is not entirely true, or at least not automatically. A cleric doesn't have to memorize cure spells, and a druid who gets into the habit of summoning unicorns also doesn't have to memorize cure spells, and a bard or favored soul or spirit shaman that picks cure spells doesn't have to memorize them. There are then other classes that do have to memorize cure spells, like Paladins and ironically healers, but generally speaking the 'I am the party healer' role does not have to memorize healing spells. :P)

[Doug Lampert]

There's also another reason. Now your characters will load up on every combat spell available. They don't need to heal as long as they can rest (see: Rope Trick). So, now your encounters are that much easier as well.

Each to their own I guess, but it doesn't make sense to me, personally.
You mean ANYONE actually prepares Cure spells? Who knew?

I mean, that was obvious idiocy after one quick readthrough of the core 3.0 rules when they first came out. Wand of CLW at caster level 1, DONE!

Seriously. You don't load up on combat spells?! Why not? You like losing?

In any case, if you can always rope trick at will, then you can always recover all spells without risk (rope trick), spend spells to heal up, and ropetrick again.

After level 1 there's NEVER a good reason to walk into a lift threatening situation with a cure spell prepared. The wizard has scribe scroll, whoever has cure spells has cure spells, scrolls can be produced cooperatively and the costs are trivial, after level 2 you have a stick of CLW or LV and never start a fight injured again in your career.

DougL

[Ravens_cry]

Then your party is already spending resources to ensure they can fully heal each night? If they're guaranteed safety in a rope trick, then why does it matter if you can just move onto 'the next morning', or if you have to interrupt your story for 'UMD character, please repeat 'I use my wand of lesser vigor' eight or nine times'.

If they're not guaranteed safety in a rope trick, then it's a nonissue.

(If you're unhappy with the spell rope trick, now, that's a topic for a different... uh, topic, but is neither here nor there with sleeping healing you to full).


We are not playing final fantasy or some other computer game. Complete mundane healing from a full nights rests makes no sense. Magic is magic, but this is supposed to be mundane. A wand of lesser vigor costs money. If you are casting it 9 times each day, that's a new wand needed after less then a week of fighting. So you are spending resources. Yes, so is rope trick, but that was an example of a commonly done 'trick' that is done to ensure a full nights rest in a dungeon for other reasons, namely getting spells back. The rope trick only practically guarantees the full nights rest, it doesn't make the idea of healing of all wounds from a full nights rest any less nonsensical for me.

[Narren]

I don't like the idea of sleep completely healing someone without some explanation, but the mechanical aspects really don't bother me. It certainly isn't a game breaker if your characters wake up with full hitpoints. A good DM will adjust challenges accordingly. And he'll also make the enemy use that break intelligently, instead of just sitting in their assigned rooms waiting for the adventurers to come put swords in them.

[mootoall]

I'm going to have to agree with these two. If you have an adventuring party with no clerics/favored souls/paladins/et cetera, then I would say feel free to use this rule. I can imagine not having a cleric in every adventuring party, especially if the party is a band of lawless mercenaries or rogues. If you have clerics/favored souls/paladins/et cetera however, I would hesitate to do so though, as it diminishes their role in the party. Sure, they would still be good for turn/rebuking, at least the clerics and paladins, but they're outclassed in pretty much every other area, excluding healing (arcane casters have more damaging spells, fighters/barbarians are better at DPS and tanking out damage, et cetera) which this proposal would be cutting out.

Not sure if anyone responded to this yet, but dear lord you're wrong. Their spell list alone makes them the best meleers, or even archers, this side of a druid.

[Narren]

Not sure if anyone responded to this yet, but dear lord you're wrong. Their spell list alone makes them the best meleers, or even archers, this side of a druid.

Eh, not everyone really plays magic-users to their full potential. My group wouldn't know how to optimize if their life depended on it. Which I kind of like, because they still love playing fighter, rogues, monks, etc. I just adjust the challenges and they have a blast.

[Safety Sword]

You mean ANYONE actually prepares Cure spells? Who knew?

I mean, that was obvious idiocy after one quick readthrough of the core 3.0 rules when they first came out. Wand of CLW at caster level 1, DONE!

Seriously. You don't load up on combat spells?! Why not? You like losing?

In any case, if you can always rope trick at will, then you can always recover all spells without risk (rope trick), spend spells to heal up, and ropetrick again.

After level 1 there's NEVER a good reason to walk into a lift threatening situation with a cure spell prepared. The wizard has scribe scroll, whoever has cure spells has cure spells, scrolls can be produced cooperatively and the costs are trivial, after level 2 you have a stick of CLW or LV and never start a fight injured again in your career.

DougL

Not everyone plays the same way. My campaigns usually have big hitting enemies that WILL hit people for large amounts of damage, just so that people will heal in combat. It makes melee people important for party survival.

Monsters that can crush a wizard or cleric will try to if a melee type doesn't get in the way, and if that happens I will try to crush them and the rest of the party better be helping to keep them alive or take the monster down.

Yes there are healing magic items, and they are very useful.

I'm fine with a party using rope trick multiple times. They spend resources. Again, what I object to is making healing free, for no expenditure of effort and not balancing that with something on the other side. I have no problem with PCs starting at full health every day, but it shouldn't be for nothing.

[Doug Lampert]

Not everyone plays the same way. My campaigns usually have big hitting enemies that WILL hit people for large amounts of damage, just so that people will heal in combat. It makes melee people important for party survival.

A big hitting monster does FAR more damage per round than you can Cure. So curing is counterproductive, you prevent more damage by KILLING THE MONSTER. And even if you INSIST on curing in combat, so what, you still don't PREPARE a cure spell since you can spontanious cast it.


Monsters that can crush a wizard or cleric will try to if a melee type doesn't get in the way, and if that happens I will try to crush them and the rest of the party better be helping to keep them alive or take the monster down.

Huh? The cleric has a better AC than the fighter from Level 1 on (he's got full armor procificencies + spells). And he's down 1+level whole HP.

Anything that can "crush" a cleric also "crushes" melee, and a cure spell won't stop it.


Yes there are healing magic items, and they are very useful.

I'm fine with a party using rope trick multiple times. They spend resources. Again, what I object to is making healing free, for no expenditure of effort and not balancing that with something on the other side. I have no problem with PCs starting at full health every day, but it shouldn't be for nothing.

Multiple rope trick costs no resources unless you are time limited, because you REGAIN THE SPELL SLOT YOU USED. It's one level 2 slot for one rope trick or for ten million consecutive rope-tricks.