Any thoughts on the Dragon Disciple?

[Tekren]

So, I was looking through the DMG, and I couldn't help but be baffled by the Dragon Disciple prestige class.
It requires spontaneous arcane casting, but grants no additional spell levels- just additional slots.
It grants huge strength bonuses, but has a Medium BAB.
Great skill choices, but only 2+int per level.
The flight and breath weapon are nice, but...

Has anyone ever PLAYED one of these? What build did you use? Was it fun? Was it effective?

I at least knew someone who played a Mystic Theurge...

[Glimbur]

I once almost used it on a Dungeoncrasher (variant from Dungeonscape) Fighter. The 3/4 BAB is kind of made up for by the Str bonuses, and since I wanted to Bull Rush all the time due to that variant it seemed worthwhile. Also, wings. I think I dipped sorcerer for True Strike and something else. My DM ended up homebrewing a martial dragon disciple which gave breath weapon on 1d4 cool down, wings, size boosts, and such. It was... really strong for what it did.

[Eldariel]

So, I was looking through the DMG, and I couldn't help but be baffled by the Dragon Disciple prestige class.
It requires spontaneous arcane casting, but grants no additional spell levels- just additional slots.
It grants huge strength bonuses, but has a Medium BAB.
Great skill choices, but only 2+int per level.
The flight and breath weapon are nice, but...

Has anyone ever PLAYED one of these? What build did you use? Was it fun? Was it effective?

I at least knew someone who played a Mystic Theurge...

I've DMed for one. It was effective...in comparison to the Core Melee options we were using back then. In Core, getting +4 Str for 2 points of BAB is a solid pick and all the extras you get for the 4 more levels can be worth it as well. And non-magical wings are pretty key for non-casters in high level games; makes you immune to dispels and stuff like that. May or may not be worth the 3rd point of BAB.

Finishing the class makes you immune to Enlarge Person so it's not worth it (all the stat bonuses become trivial if you use Polymorph anyways and Dragon-shapes are available regardless so that's not a valid consideration; only Alter Self is relevant and it's way too late for that to matter in this case), but other than that the class is decent for someone who doesn't give a damn about casting (yeah, you pick Enlarge Person and True Strike as your spells and that's it). Then again, back when I DMed that game, I didn't realize that friggin' Planar Binding pretty much replaces all non-caster classes with much more competent minions (one of the same players figured that out in another game).


So yeah, in Core-only game, compared to a straight Fighter or Barbarian, it's a fine choice. Otherwise, not so much. And the only reason it's a decent choice there is 'cause Fighters don't actually gain class features on high levels and Barbarians really slow down after the first level too.

[Dusk Eclipse]

if your DM let's you select non-standard dragons* ,you ignore the schrodinger dragon disciple paradox and you read the capstone as giving the half-dragon template bonuses on top of what the class givesI think it is quite workable.

You just have to remember it is a melee prestige class, not a Spellcasting one, Duskblade is an excellent dip for the class as you don't loose BAB if you are only dip it.

For example, if you can be a shadow dragon disciple, you get immunity to negative level (which is always a plus on my book) and you get a negative level breath weapon (take the feat in RotD to get it every 1d4 rounds and you got enervation at will...as a melee class)

[Thurbane]

The best use of DD is a dip, usually in a melee build. 4 levels isn't horrible:

+3 BAB, Fort +4, Will +4, +2 natural armor, +4 STR, claws & bite...

It's also neat for taking after a limited progression casting PrC. If you've reached 10/10 casting, picked up bonus spell slots (which can be of your highest level) isn't too shabby.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I've heard that with just enough arcane casting to meet the prerequisites and otherwise being a melee man, it's not that bad. Not great, but not bad.

A 10 level class for what is only slightly better than a 3 LA template, one that's often accepted as overly costly at that, isn't really the best, though. If I were to remake it (which I just might do one of these days...), I'd probably shorten it. Or at least give it something like 8/10 casting progression.

[Kylarra]

Pathfinder's dragon disciple is a nice improvement, 7/10 casting isn't great, but it's better than nothing.

[true_shinken]

I really like it for Arcanamach builds.

[Telonius]

Random thought ... would the "bonus spell" given by DD count as an extra Invocation if applied to a Warlock? If so, you'd end up with one more Dark Invocation if you had Warlock16/DD4. (I believe there are a few ways to get arcane casting without preparation, without actually having levels in an arcane casting class).

[Cog]

Random thought ... would the "bonus spell" given by DD count as an extra Invocation if applied to a Warlock?
Warlocks don't qualify for the class on their own, and don't have any spells to get extra castings of.

Dragon Devotee is an amusing entry, though perhaps not powerful. 3/4 BAB as well, matching stat boosts, Know:Arcana as a class skill (though you need one rank to get in that class), and two levels of sorcerer casting that let you cast up to first level spells without ASF - higher level spells don't get that exception, but you only get bonus first-level slots off Disciple anyway.

[Nerocite]

Random thought ... would the "bonus spell" given by DD count as an extra Invocation if applied to a Warlock? If so, you'd end up with one more Dark Invocation if you had Warlock16/DD4. (I believe there are a few ways to get arcane casting without preparation, without actually having levels in an arcane casting class).

Invocations are Spell-like abilities, not spells. Warlock wouldn't qualify.

[Eldariel]

Warlock doesn't cast spells and doesn't have spell slots so it doesn't really even begin to work without a heapin' of DM help.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dragon Disciple is almost, though not quite, as bad a trap as Arcane Archer. There *ARE* builds in which Dragon Disciple can be marginally useful, most of them involving a single level dip in Sorcerer for prereq's, then into a more melee-centric build. Arcane Archer is literally worthless, as a single third level spell replicates 90% of the class.

[Anxe]

I DMed a Hexblade/Dragon Disciple. He killed three party members, so... quite effective. He was a two-weapon fighting build, two levels above the 6 man party, and a Vampire. He's been a slightly recurring character in my last campaign since and is slated to be one of the BBEGs in my next campaign.

[Aharon]

@Dusk eclipse
I like the idea, but how do you evade Schrodinger? You still become a half-dragon at the end, triggering the loop.

@Anxe
That sounds like fun, but his success could also be because he was 2 levels higher and a vampire, not neccessarily because he was a dragon disciple.

[senrath]

No, no, he was saying that if you can pick a nonstandard dragon and if you can ignore the paradox, not that you can ignore the paradox by picking a nonstandard dragon.

[Reynard]

In case the OP isn't aware, the Shrodinger's Dragon paradox is thus:

In order to enter Dragon Disciple, you need to be a non-Dragon (and can't be half-Dragon), in addition to other things.
The capstone of Dragon Disciple turns you into a half-dragon.

But then you no longer qualify for the class, so you lose everything.

But then you DO, so you don't.

But then you DON'T, so you do.

And on and on until you punch the guy explaining this to your crestfallen face.

[Cog]

Fortunately, the more restrictive requirements for PrCs only appear in a couple of books - C. Warrior and C. Arcane, IIRC. The DMG is certainly a more primary source, and by its rules you only need to qualify to take the class, not to keep its benefits.

[Runestar]

One of my first characters in 3.5e was a barb/bard/dragon disciple (inspired somewhat by its apparent effectiveness in NWN). Extra slots went towards fueling mirror image. Not too bad, but not that spectacular either. Main redeeming feature is that melee classes like barb and fighter don't really offer anything significant past lv2, so you lose little by PRC'ing out early.:smalltongue:

[Robert Blackletter]

well my group use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178761&highlight=dragon+disciple) quick and dirty fix and it not too bad in a melee build, we are talking about lowering the BAB but add + 1 level of spell casting each level if someone wants to make a spell caster out of it.

[Darth Stabber]

Better entry paths than Sorc.

(Hex/dusk)blade is great for it. Battle Sorcerer (UA), Bard(SRD), warmage(CArc), Dread Necro(HoH), and Beguiler(PHB2) all offer you casting in light armor and thus better (since the class encourages Gishing). Suel Arcanamach utilizes the bonus slots well. Honestly once I can get 3rd level spells in Battle Sorcerer, I would have no problem with going Dragon Desciple, and using the extra slots for haste, Stir in some melee class and you have a decent build.

Battle Sorcerer6/Dragon Disciple10/Fighter4 is not bad for a Low-Op game. (especially if using fractional BAB rules).

[The Cat Goddess]

If you want to be a Dragon-person, go Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon). It's LA 0, gives a better breath weapon and you can get wings via Feats (or you can just get Wings and no breath weapon).

[Keld Denar]

I really like it for Arcanamach builds.

This. If you go with full BAB entry and full casting classes, you finish out Suel levels at ECL16. This leaves you exactly 4 levels to dip into Dragon Disciple which gives you more 5th level spells/day on top of the Str and Cha gains, 2 of the most important feats for a typical Suel build. Its basically the only PrC ever printed that will "advance" Suel casting past 10/10.

[kyoten]

Quick question regarding Dragon Disciple. How does Dragon Apotheosis work exactly? Do you gain the previous levels benefits + 10th level benefits + Half-Dragon template? Or just at 10th level the listed benefits sans Half-Dragon template?

~Kyoten

[Kylarra]

Quick question regarding Dragon Disciple. How does Dragon Apotheosis work exactly? Do you gain the previous levels benefits + 10th level benefits + Half-Dragon template? Or just at 10th level the listed benefits sans Half-Dragon template?

~KyotenThe intention is that you've effectively gained the template by taking all those levels. So you don't really gain any additional benefits.

[Darth Stabber]

I do believe that you gain the template sans stat increases (as you have been given those over the course of the class). That was how it worked in NWN and How I have ruled it in the past. But I could be wrong. Now is there a good way to up the uses per day of the breath weapon.

[ericgrau]

Read the DMG entry, it's meant for melee. Best melee PrC in the DMG in fact. You dip only 1 or 2 levels of sorcerer (or another class). IIRC the DMG also mentions it's lousy for casters; or even if it doesn't say so, it is. It is a little better than the half-dragon template for melee because those 3 lost HD, saves and BAB hurt.

There actually is a point to that one sorcerer level (or whatever) besides as a pre-req. It's effectively like having a UMD score of 20 for the purpose of wands, scrolls and staffs from the chosen class. Heck you can use any staff no matter how powerful.

[Keld Denar]

As far as increasing the BW, the Draconic Breath feat ups the /day usage to the standard dragon 1d4 recovery. You have to be a half dragon though, so you can't take it till apotheosis...

[Cog]

There's another feat, also in RoD though I don't recall the name offhand (Extra Breath?), that gives you an additional use per day without requiring being a half-dragon. If you use retraining rules, that might help tide you over, but it's probably not worth it unless you're doing something like Entangling Exhalation atop it.

[dextercorvia]

Read the DMG entry, it's meant for melee. Best melee PrC in the DMG in fact. You dip only 1 or 2 levels of sorcerer (or another class). IIRC the DMG also mentions it's lousy for casters; or even if it doesn't say so, it is. It is a little better than the half-dragon template for melee because those 3 lost HD, saves and BAB hurt.

There actually is a point to that one sorcerer level (or whatever) besides as a pre-req. It's effectively like having a UMD score of 20 for the purpose of wands, scrolls and staffs from the chosen class. Heck you can use any staff no matter how powerful.

Bolded are still gone.

[Cog]

Bolded are still gone.
Yeah, DD is actually very good at mimicking being a dragon. You get big HD, natural attacks, flight, a CL lower than your HD but with the bonus spells of having a monstrous Charisma... and the reduced BAB that comes with the high LA of every dragon.