Hellspawned Grace? (Warlock invocation from Complete Mage)

[Scarlet-Devil]

A couple questions; firstly, is it good (why or why not)? Second, are there any ways to increase its strangely short duration?

Basically I'm wondering what the use of the invocation is, particularly since I'm pretty sure you lose all of your warlocky abilities while in the form.

[Waker]

Well, I've never played a Warlock, but it seems like a decent invocation. The earliest you can get the invocation is level 11, so the duration is 5 rounds at the lowest. The form itself has a few nice benefits (decent ability scores, some SR, some DR and a form of invisibility) and I don't see anything that would deny you access to your warlocky abilities (remember that SLA don't require verbal or somatic components).
The biggest draw to the form is the fact that you can use it at will. Would be nicer if it were rounds per level as opposed to rounds per level/2.

[Fishy]

(remember that SLA don't require verbal or somatic components).

SLAs don't, invocations do. It's also the reason Warlocks don't wear full plate.

[Waker]

SLAs don't, invocations do. It's also the reason Warlocks don't wear full plate.

Finally, unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance as described under Weapon and Armor Proficiency above.
True, they can't wear heavy armor because of that particular spot in invocations. But that's not actually related to verbal/somatic components, since technically even a still/silent spell has an ASF. My point about the invocations not requiring verbal/somatic components was more directed to the casting of spells without the requisite limbs and ability to speak.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Well, the reason I figured they wouldn't be able to use invocations and stuff while in the hellcat form is because you lose your class features while polymorphed.

:smallsigh:, They do get some good things, it's just annoying how short the duration is...

[tyckspoon]

SLAs don't, invocations do. It's also the reason Warlocks don't wear full plate.

Irrelevant in this particular case, because Hellspawned Grace is a Polymorph Subschool effect, which means it removes all your normal special abilities in favor of those of the thing you turn into. Specifically including class features. So, Hellspawned Grace lets you be (Ex) invisible and gives you telepathy, basically- the other stuff a hellcat has is fairly uninspiring for the level you have to be to choose the invocation.

[mabriss lethe]

It takes away your warlock abilities to turn you into an invisible grappler, and not a terrible one at that. theoretically, investing in some wilding clasps could work... and you might have some potential fun with it. (I know they only reference wild shape in the magic item description, but as a DM I'd let it them work for any Polymorph subschool effect.)

[Cog]

But that's not actually related to verbal/somatic components, since technically even a still/silent spell has an ASF. My point about the invocations not requiring verbal/somatic components was more directed to the casting of spells without the requisite limbs and ability to speak.
You're wrong on both counts here. In the warlock's Weapon and Armor Proficiency description, invocations are stated to have "relatively simple" somatic components. However, a stilled spell or a spell without somatic components does not call for an ASF check, as per the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#spellFailure).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's fairly sub-par. It basically lets you turn into a sneaking flanker for a few rounds. It's better than the overwhelmingly ridiculous Dark invocation that turns you into a swarm of bats, but it's not the strongest choice for a Greater by any means.

[Akal Saris]

As a sidenote, I believe this was also made into a 4E warlock daily, and is quite strong, since it turns whoever you touch into a serious damage machine for the encounter :)

[Scarlet-Devil]

It's better than the overwhelmingly ridiculous Dark invocation that turns you into a swarm of bats, but it's not the strongest choice for a Greater by any means.

Au contraire, an ability that makes you impervious to weapon damage, as well as various other bonuses including flight and an extremely versatile, debilitating attack, is nothing to be scoffed at.

[Cog]

There is one reason it's still ridiculous, though.

While in swarm form, you can't take standard actions.

Dismissing an invocation is a standard action.

[Scarlet-Devil]

There is one reason it's still ridiculous, though.

While in swarm form, you can't take standard actions.

Dismissing an invocation is a standard action.

...

That's very silly... but completely true. :smalleek::smallamused:

[Fizban]

I got the same impressions as everyone else here seems to have: some useful abilities but not spectacular and definitely not some sort of "rawr, I'm gonna rip your face off" power. Invisible grappling does sound like a good idea, and your DR will probably be effective against most things that would get used against you while grappling.

I would note that spells already in effect on you don't end, so there's some potential there. Fell Flight, for example, is an ongoing spell effect, so you'd retain that. The key with any polymorph subschool spell is to take the "balanced" form they're giving you and then layer on every buff you can before the fight to make it PC worthy. Mage Armor and Shield to compensate for terrible monster AC, Heart of Earth, Heart of Water, Protection from Evil to negate compulsion, and so on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Au contraire, an ability that makes you impervious to weapon damage, as well as various other bonuses including flight and an extremely versatile, debilitating attack, is nothing to be scoffed at.

You already have flight and means of being nearly impervious to weapon damage from about level 6 (Fell Flight and a Wand of Mirror Image). You have debilitating attacks from around level 11 (nauseating/hindering/confusing blast). You gain nothing you don't already have, at the expense of being able to use invocations or even get OUT of the form.

[Scarlet-Devil]

You already have flight and means of being nearly impervious to weapon damage from about level 6 (Fell Flight and a Wand of Mirror Image). You have debilitating attacks from around level 11 (nauseating/hindering/confusing blast). You gain nothing you don't already have, at the expense of being able to use invocations or even get OUT of the form.

Flight and mirror image are nowhere near as good as actually being entirely untouchable by physical attacks; think about it: that mountain giant ravaging the country side? Buzz around his head and piss on him for the 20 rounds or so it might take to kill him with your swarm attack, 'cause you're in no hurry. You can shape your 40 ft. or so area however you like, and disable everything in those squares; noxious cones are good, and certainly better in some cases, but they can't match that in terms of versatility.

The thing about not being able to get out of the form is ludicrous, a bad case of RAW vs RAI and nothing more. It may even have been fixed with the warlock errata.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Flight and mirror image are nowhere near as good as actually being entirely untouchable by physical attacks; think about it: that mountain giant ravaging the country side? Buzz around his head and piss on him for the 20 rounds or so it might take to kill him with your swarm attack, 'cause you're in no hurry. You can shape your 40 ft. or so area however you like, and disable everything in those squares; noxious cones are good, and certainly better in some cases, but they can't match that in terms of versatility.

The thing about not being able to get out of the form is ludicrous, a bad case of RAW vs RAI and nothing more. It may even have been fixed with the warlock errata.

I disagree. That same warlock would *EASILY* be able to drop the mountain giant in a single round without the form. Quicken Blast + Empowered Blast. Done. Have a nice day. Or, if you're worried, Hindering Blast (slow effect so the giant can't use most of his problematic abilities) and then Confusing Blast (confusion effects tend to be win buttons), or even Fearful Blast (fear is also a win button). Plus, yanno, doing a whole LOT more damage.

However, if that hill giant has a kobold sorcerer buddy, and tosses... oh, I dunno... the humble Fireball spell. You're dead. Have a nice day.

[awa]

mountain giant was mentioned which are far more powerful than hill giants.

swarms are also immune to any spell which is not an area of effect or mind effecting so no enervation or disintegrate.
a huge number of monsters cant hurt you while in swarm form sure this ability is no wish but its not that bad and beside you only take 50% more damage from that fire ball that's not instant death particularly with your warlock fire resistance.

this invocation gives you immunity to a large number of creatures and ignoring the stupid thing of not being able to change back is not a bad invocation

edit
also 525 damage in a single shot is some big time optimization few warlocks could manage it. and with its speed of 80 it could quickly charge you even if slowed and forced into a partial charge

edit 2
actually their are a lot of cr 20+ monster that cant fight swarms tarrasque and epic stone colossus just to name a few

[ShneekeyTheLost]

mountain giant was mentioned which are far more powerful than hill giants.

swarms are also immune to any spell which is not an area of effect or mind effecting so no enervation or disintegrate.
a huge number of monsters cant hurt you while in swarm form sure this ability is no wish but its not that bad and beside you only take 50% more damage from that fire ball that's not instant death particularly with your warlock fire resistance.

this invocation gives you immunity to a large number of creatures and ignoring the stupid thing of not being able to change back is not a bad invocation

edit
also 525 damage in a single shot is some big time optimization few warlocks could manage it. and with its speed of 80 it could quickly charge you even if slowed and forced into a partial charge

Speed of 80 is irrelevant. You have at-will dimension door with Flee The Scene. You already have immunity to a large number of creatures simply with Walk Unseen and Fell Flight. If it cannot see invisible, or if it cannot attack at range or fly itself, you are immune to it.

Also, it's ability to hit you is severly hampered by:

1) Invisible. if it can't hit you, it can't hurt you.

2) Mirror Image. You've got a 1 in 8 chance of actually hitting me. That's a 12.5% chance. The question is... do ya feel lucky, punk?

3) You're flying. Unless it is, or it can hit you at range, you are effectively immune to it.

4) Confusing Blast. It now has a 20% chance of being able to target you.

5) Maximize Spell-Like Ability. Quicken Spell-like Ability. 11d6 (assuming no PrC's, with the amulet that gives a +2d6 to blast, assuming no other tricks to further improve this, so basically zero optimization) x 2 is 22d6 = 132 damage. Even a Storm Giant only has, on average, 178 hit points. And it's got 17hd. Your average Stone Giant has only 119 hit points, and will be one-rounded before he even GETS an action. What source are you quoting a giant with over five hundred hit points?

So yea. Like I said. You're already immune to it WITHOUT gimping your ability to actually DO anything useful.

[senrath]

Mountain Giant is a CR 26 monster from MMII.

[awa]

the example was mountain giant with over 500 hit points.
if you shoot it it can see you also it has scent. it can throw boulders which while not super effective can still hurt. the giant might actually make his saves their are plenty of ways the giant might be able to do a bit of damage.


edit
although the cr 26 is grossly undeserved
flee the scene is a standard action you teleport away he runs up and hits you
you use mirror image he closes his eye and uses scent only 50 % miss chance now

also please actually read our posts no one has said anything about a stone giant

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So you're using a CR 26 monster against an ECL 16-20 completely unoptimized warlock? Umm... yea. In that case, let's do some minimal optimization.

First off, let's grab a two level dip in Chameleon. That lets us pick a floating feat. For that feat, we'll take Extra Invocation, and make that invocation Entropic Ward, which includes a complete lack of scent. You've negated this monster's ability to target you. Assuming you didn't choose it as one of your three starting invocations anyways. Have a nice day.

So yea, a level 16 Warlock being able to take down a CR 26 encounter with a Least invocation, a couple of Lesser, and a Greater. Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me.

You still haven't responded to the 'confusion = you suck' or 'Fear = you loose' parts of the equation, or mentioned how he's going to a) target something invisible from over 200 feet away, and b) how he's going to make a 12.5% chance reliably.

hell, we don't even NEED to get into HFW/Legacy Champion on this one, although that would definately bring the firepower to the table to one-round this bugger.

[awa]

elderich blast does not have a 200 foot range
and being a swarm is just one power that makes him and any similar monster redundant. we don't need to prove that a optimized warlock cant beat a mountain giant with out this ability merely that this ability is useful when dealing with monster in the im big and i hit you category.

the giant can make his saves you know even if they are only +10 (except fort)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

elderich blast does not have a 200 foot range
and being a swarm is just one power that makes him and any similar monster redundant. we don't need to prove that a optimized warlock cant beat a mountain giant with out this ability merely that this ability is useful when dealing with monster in the im big and i hit you category.

the giant can make his saves you know even if they are only +10 (except fort)

Eldritch Spear. Range = 250, Least invocation.

If his saves are only a +10, then he will only have a 5% chance of making a save.

Alternately, I could simply use a Wand of Grease, and laugh as he falls on his behind.

The point is, that invocation is the biggest trap ever since Arcane Archer. You gain nothing, except the inability to do anything meaningful.

And this is using very unoptimized builds, people. If I wanted, I could easily be dishing out 1k+/round with Hellfire Glaivelock. In which case, it will be a greasy stain. Of course, that's a waste of a warlock, in my opinion. Just let the Barbarian take up that job.

[awa]

no the point is the ability has uses sure a large combination of other abilities can beat the monster to or you could use this one ability where he cant do anything at all even if he has a 20 sided die with nothing but 20s on it. no optimization of any kind needed at all just one ability all your stats could be 3 you might have no gear all your feats are wasted and you don't have any other invocation and you would still win because when fighting one trick ponies like this one this invocation beats them. this invocation also makes you immune to most spells but you have conveniently ignored that as well.

[Cog]

this invocation also makes you immune to most spells but you have conveniently ignored that as well.
At the cost of making you even more vulnerable to certain other spells, and preventing you from accessing any of your gear, leaving you more vulnerable in general. Meanwhile, that list of other abilities that you think is so long are viable in many situations instead of very limited ones, and would very rarely feel like wasted abilities.

[Scarlet-Devil]

So you're using a CR 26 monster against an ECL 16-20 completely unoptimized warlock? Umm... yea. In that case, let's do some minimal optimization.

First off, let's grab a two level dip in Chameleon. That lets us pick a floating feat. For that feat, we'll take Extra Invocation, and make that invocation Entropic Ward, which includes a complete lack of scent. You've negated this monster's ability to target you. Assuming you didn't choose it as one of your three starting invocations anyways. Have a nice day.

So yea, a level 16 Warlock being able to take down a CR 26 encounter with a Least invocation, a couple of Lesser, and a Greater. Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me.

You still haven't responded to the 'confusion = you suck' or 'Fear = you loose' parts of the equation, or mentioned how he's going to a) target something invisible from over 200 feet away, and b) how he's going to make a 12.5% chance reliably.

hell, we don't even NEED to get into HFW/Legacy Champion on this one, although that would definately bring the firepower to the table to one-round this bugger.

Don't you realize how ridiculous your argument is? You're trying to say that the invocation is bad because it can beat a CR 26 monster with no effort at all, and trying to counter using optimization. With dark discorporation there is absolutely zero chance that the giant can resist or harm you at all; why should you waste four invocations and two class levels when you can just take this one ability that does the same thing better and then some?

The form's only weaknesses are mind-affecting things (which you had no special resistance to in the first place) and area attacks. That seems a wonderful price to pay for the extensive list of benefits it provides, including nigh invulnerability and extraordinary maneuverability.

Edit: Not to mention that if you know that you're going to be hit with a lot of area attacks you have no obligation to actually use it; see a blasty sorcerer? Hit him with a noxious blast or some chilling tentacles instead.

[true_shinken]

Both Dark Discorporation and Hellspawned Grace are invocations I'd take with Extra Invocation via an action point should I need it.
Their niche is too narrow for me to choose them otherwise, though.

[MammonAzrael]

I'm going to say that Hellspawn Grace is a pretty cool invocation. It has some unique utility, and can certainly be useful. It is not the most powerful Greater invocation, but neither is it something you'd only take in extremely limited circumstances.

So, if it fits the character, groovy.

I don't know of any way to extend the duration, as I don't think there was ever an official Extend Spell-like Ability feat. :smallannoyed: If you can make the invocation a supernatural ability you can pick up Extend Supernatural Ability though.

[Scarlet-Devil]

I'm going to say that Hellspawn Grace is a pretty cool invocation. It has some unique utility, and can certainly be useful. It is not the most powerful Greater invocation, but neither is it something you'd only take in extremely limited circumstances.

So, if it fits the character, groovy.

I don't know of any way to extend the duration, as I don't think there was ever an official Extend Spell-like Ability feat. :smallannoyed: If you can make the invocation a supernatural ability you can pick up Extend Supernatural Ability though.

Yeah, the duration is very unfortunate, since it's the only real shape-changing ability warlocks get; it would be nice if they had just thrown them a bone and let them stay in the form as long as they wanted, since you can use it at will anyway...

[Tael]

@Dark Discorporation:
If you can negate an enemy's ability to hurt you with DD, you could have easily killed them without DD.

On the other hand, DD prevents you from, you know, being a warlock, and gives you a really ****y melee attack.

I think the choice is clear.

[true_shinken]

Yeah, the duration is very unfortunate, since it's the only real shape-changing ability warlocks get
With the Infernal Adept feat, they can get DFA's Humanoid Shape.

[Scarlet-Devil]

With the Infernal Adept feat, they can get DFA's Humanoid Shape.

Oh? :smallsmile:, I assume that's in Dragon Magic?

[Cog]

It's here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613). You can't get Humanoid Shape until you can use Dark invocations, though.