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Cespenar
2011-02-28, 06:45 AM
Okay, I had a somewhat weird build idea, so why not post it here and have it brutally shot down, right?

ECL 6

Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1) Warblade 1: Improved Shield Bash
2) Spirit Lion Barbarian 1
3) Fighter 1: Ironheart Aura, Shield Charge
4) Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
5) Fighter 3
6) Fighter 4: Improved Trip, Stormguard Warrior

So, the idea is, Pounce at your target, you get 2 attacks with your main hand and 1 with your shield. Convert all of them to non-damaging Combat Rhythm attacks via Stormguard Warrior. Since they are touch attacks, they should almost always result in successful hits. Regardless of the lack of damage, a successful shield charge should give me a trip attempt, which with a combination of Improved Trip, a high strength and barbarian rage should probably end in a tripped opponent. You get another free attack due to Imp. Trip, you Combat Rhythm that as well. That's 4 attacks now.

At your opponent's turn, he probably tries to get up. Invokes an AoO, you give that away to Channel the Storm, getting a +4 to attack and damage roll against that target. He can attack you or try to get away.

Your turn again. If he gets away, all the better. If he doesn't, you can Sudden Leap away. Regardless, you charge and Pounce for 3+1 attacks. That's +4 to attack and +24 to damage rolls before counting anything else. Your main weapon is obviously Valorous. You get the point.

At higher levels, you can quite probably mix this with regular Leap Attack Shock Trooper combo for even more damage, but I highly doubt that it would rate more efficient than the original charger build, since you deal the damage in 2 rounds, it costs lots of feats, etc.

Nevertheless, a mild thought experiment is what this is. Would it work? Is it utter crap? Has it been done before? Could it be used to improve the efficiency of a charger build? How?

FMArthur
2011-02-28, 08:23 AM
Yeah, I just don't see the point. It's stall tactics, but what do you gain by stalling? A character who struggles to deal enough damage on attacks could make use of it (something I have a bit of a hard time believing on a Warblade/Barbarian), but you need to gain something from not killing them the first round.

Maybe as a sneaky character you could use this sort of like Mosquito's Bite was intended to be used (as in, they don't recognize your dangerousness until they are all slain). It'd be a pretty cool surprise trick, but it would still get old. I would think it would even get kind of boring and possibly frustrating to play after a little bit, which would relegate it to my NPC pile... but then it falls out of that pile too because it's likely to kill PCs without any warning.

Person_Man
2011-02-28, 10:15 AM
It's a nifty idea, but it's inefficient. There's no reason to include Trip, since a Dazed enemy is already locked down. Stormguard generally needs/wants a lot more attacks. And a Barbarian dip for Pounce isn't necessary for a ToB build, which could easily pick up Pounce or free movement half a dozen other ways.

Before I start throwing out alternatives, are you wedded to ECL 6, or limited to any specific sources?

Cespenar
2011-02-28, 12:24 PM
Shield Charge doesn't Daze, it gives a free Trip attempt on a charge, you must've mixed it with Shield Slam.

Also, I preferred ECL 6 because it's the earliest when you can pull this off. And as to sources, knock yourself out.

Person_Man
2011-02-28, 01:54 PM
At ECL 7 you could combine Boomerang Daze, Stormguard Warrior, and Bloodstorm Blade 2 (so that your thrown attacks can count as melee attacks, a pre-req for Combat Rhythm). First few Boomerangs are thrown normally and force Save or Daze effects whenever they damage their target, then switch to non-damaging touch attacks to power up Combat Rhythm. Next round just make normal attacks and deal massive damage (and force further Daze Saves). This has the advantage of forcing multiple Save vs Daze per round (instead of just 1) and doesn't require Charge or Pounce (or the danger of close combat).

At ECL 15 you could also use a Totemist/Warblade/Ironsoul Forgemaster. The Totemist soulmelds easily provides you with 6+ natural attacks (in addition to your normal attack routine), and the Ironsoul Forgemaster capstone gives you a Save or Daze effect whenever you hit an enemy with your invested melee weapon.

The only downside I can see is that your DM will quickly become pissed if you do this every combat. So you should definitely mix up your maneuvers or soulmelds or whatnot and vary your tacts, or you will soon face a DMG to the forehead attack.

Firechanter
2011-02-28, 03:30 PM
Maybe I'm just being blind or dumb, but I don't see very much appeal in Stormguard Warrior except in very special cases. I guess the main application is when your target has an impossibly high AC, or unsurpassable DR.

First you need a lot of attacks in one round, which, done as Touch Attack, will almost all hit, each giving you those +5 to damage in the next round. For this, think of something like TWF with Avalanche of Blades or suchlike, but note that this an IL13 maneuver.

Then, since his AC is so bloody high, you need him to Provoke so you can gain that attack bonus that you need to hit him.

Finally, if the bugger is even still in range on your next turn, you can hopefully hit him with your improved attack and apply that extra damage.

Well and good. But then again, if your opponent has impossibly high AC, you could also just use Emerald Razor and still Power Attack him into the middle of next week, without burning two feats.
And if your target does not have impossibly high AC, you're better off with regular Full Attacks or some high-damage Strikes.

What I especially dislike about Combat Rhythm is that you let your opponent live another round without even inconveniencing him. If he gets out of your range during his turn, all your nice phantom damage is wasted. During that time, he might even have advanced to your party mage and processed her to pink goo. If he moves just a bit you already can't Full Attack him anymore, so you're benefitting only in one measly Standard Attack.

Using SW to overcome DR by force? I dunno. D&D gives you enough options to ignore DR in the first place. The only thing you cannot bypass with relative ease is Epic DR.

Let's compare two different mid-level (11-12) setups. That's nothing new to the D&D veterans, but maybe it's interesting for a rookie. Let's say your STR is 22 and your weapons are +3:
1. TWF with 2 light weapons. You deal around 1d6+9 with Main and 1d6+6 with Off hand attacks. Let's also say you get 3 attacks per hand, and on average you hit with 50% of them (you get -2 penalty after all). So that's an average of 33 damage per round, no maneuvers. And you can't use Power Attack because your toothpicks are too light.
2. THF. First off, you did not have to buy another +3 weapon that costs all of 18K. In fact, you could afford a +4 weapon and still have saved 4K so let's do that. You also didn't have to invest 3 feats into TWF so you would have gotten other goodies, such as Power Attack.
You deal around 2d6+13 per hit, and since you don't get an attack penalty and have a better weapon, you hit 65% of the time. That's 39 per round on average, and you still have two feats to spare.

Now let's say the TWFer uses Combat Rhythm in round 1 and is lucky enough to connect 5 of 6 touches and apply the damage in a full attack in round 2. So each of his damage rolls gets a +25 to damage, which ups his output to 93 points in that round.
However, since that's spread over two rounds it's actually only 46,5 per round. Note that this stunt has cost the TWFer 5 feats altogether.
TBH I don't know the Tiger Claw style very well so I don't know off hand how he could improve his attacks and damage at that level.
(Of course we could factor in foregone AoOs via Channel the Storm, but if the target draws AoOs, it's highly unlikely he's still available for a Full Attack in the next turn.)

The THFer would spend his feats differently. Let's go with the blandest and most trivial enhancers ever, the WF->GWS line. That's those 4 feats, giving him +2 to hit and +4 to damage. *bam* Average damage 54 per round. Eat that, Stormguard Warrior. And we haven't even used our Power Attack (whose effectiveness depends a lot on low target AC). Other feat choices are likely to be superior, too.

Things probably weigh differently for different target ACs and other circumstances. As usual, there are so many possible variables that you just can't cover it all in a few lines.

If you think I'm totally on the wrong track, please enlighten me. I'm really trying to make sense out of Stormguard Warrior but I don't see it.

Draz74
2011-02-28, 03:37 PM
If you think I'm totally on the wrong track, please enlighten me. I'm really trying to make sense out of Stormguard Warrior but I don't see it.

Well, even if you just stick it on a normal Warblade with no TWF or anything, one of its main uses is, when you get a full attack, you can make your primary attack(s) (which are likely to hit) normally and do damage, then convert your iterative attacks (that are likely to miss) into touch attacks that have some purpose.

Firechanter
2011-02-28, 03:42 PM
Oooooh now I see. All the time I misread the feat description, thinking you'd have to change _all_ attacks in a round to touch attacks.
Well then of course that's different. Still not sure if it's worth 2 feats, but regularly trading your last one or two attacks into +5 damage for your first one or two isn't so shabby. Thanks for the heads-up!

Person_Man
2011-02-28, 03:44 PM
Yeah, it's not the most optimal mechanic. It's just another fun/weird option. I think the intent is that you can basically give up your attacks for 1 round, and ensure that your uber maneuver (or spell, or soulmeld, or whatever, as long as it's a melee attack) will get a big bonus the next round. I've seen it used against boss enemies, and while it's not as amazing as many other combos, it can be fairly useful and very fun.

Firechanter
2011-03-01, 11:48 AM
I've fiddled around with it a bit, on the basis of a THFer and a target AC about equal to your primary attack bonus. Basically, on high levels, "Combat Rhythm" comes down to about 10 extra damage per Full Attack if you convert your 4th iterative attack, as the most optimal ratio. Converting the 3rd attack lowers the overall output again.

Note that Greater Insightful Strike, a 6th-level maneuver, will do more damage than that in a single attack (if your Conc is properly groomed, which I presume), not to mention the higher level damage strikes.

So, that's just the statistical info... still anyone's decision to spend 2 feats for the effect. At least it's "at will" and not a X/day trick.

Draz74
2011-03-01, 12:36 PM
Yep, that sounds about right.

I don't think anyone would ever spend two feats on it if the first one, Ironheart Aura, weren't a Bonus Feat for Warblades. Since there aren't any amazing feats on their list for it to compete with (except Combat Reflexes), Stormguard Warrior is almost more like one feat rather than two.

It's still only a strong choice on builds that focus on it, such as TWF-types. But even on an out-of-the-box Warblade, it's not a terrible feat.