Using 2 Shields in Combat(trying to get both bonuses to ac)

[Matamane]

is there an effective way to use two shields in combat? Is there any way to get two shield bonuses to AC?

[gbprime]

Well shield bonuses don't stack, and even Two Weapon Defense is a shield bonus.

[Keld Denar]

AFAIK, there is no ability that decouples the fact that a shield bonus is a shield bonus and thus never stacks with another shield bonus.

[Matamane]

Blast, well since I craft items for roughly a fifth of the cost, I guess I can make a second one for the lulz.

[Coidzor]

Reminds me of a thing I once saw of a character wielding these things that were a cross between elongated, pointy bucklers and punching daggers/katars.

Doing this in D&D though, not doable without significant houseruling.

[mabriss lethe]

Enchant one as a weapon and give it the Defending property? You won't get the shield bonus, but you'll get its enhancement bonus to your AC.

[GodGoblin]

Look into the Dwarven Buckler axe and Gnomish Tortious blade (Something like that) Also the Gnomish battle cloak, its just a cape but when you use it in an empty hand it can be a shield.

All of that is in the Races of Stone, would be be worth a read :smallsmile:

[Rumpus]

Well, not under RAW, but it seems like a pretty reasonable houserule. An extra couple of points of AC seems like a pretty small compensation for tying up both your hands. Now, there's obviously size issues if you try to use a pair of tower shields.

[Keld Denar]

Enchanting a shield as armor and a weapon actually is very cost effective. The costs are simply addative, rather than increasing geometrically. Only the cost of Bashing is added to the armor side. You could have a +1 Wounding/+1 Bashing shield for the cost of a +3 weapon and a +2 shield. You actually save a tiny bit of money on this vs 2 weapons, given that you only have to pay for the masterwork component once, and actually the shield masterwork component is cheaper. It becomes an even larger difference if you make the shield out of Adamantine or such.

The only thing wielding two shields would do would save you a feat on Imp Shield Bash, as you could bash with one shield and defend with the other. If you did that, though, you'd probably be better off using a weapon in your main hand as weapons tend to have better die ranges and/or crit ranges/multipliers than shields do. Then again, shields are bludgeoning (unless you spike them), which makes them valid targets for Greater Mighty Wallop...

[Last Laugh]

I do KNOW that Person Man's guide to shields has a section about double shielding, lemme poke around.

I can't really find it now, I think the idea was using things which reduced your shield penalty, but you had redundant bonuses.

Exquisitely ninja'd

[Person_Man]

Shield Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)

The feat you are looking for is Inlindl School from Drow of the Underdark. You can sacrifice your shield bonus to AC to gain 1/2 that bonus To-Hit with any light or Weapon Finesse-able weapon. While this may not sound like much, keep in mind that with enhancements, Shield Specialization, Divine Shield, Knight bonuses, etc, it's not that hard to get a +10 or higher shield bonus, which means that you can easily get a +5 or higher untyped bonus to hit for a moderate investment.

You can also fight with two shields (presumably one is Animated and you wield the other is wielded two handed) and only sacrifice the shield bonus from one, while keeping the AC bonus from the second shield.

[SurlySeraph]

Artificers can shuffle around what kind of bonus an item gives, right? Could they switch a shield's shield bonus to, say, an insight bonus?

[Coidzor]

Hmm. A riverine shield turns half the shield bonus into deflection, I believe. ...but deflection bonuses don't stack, IIRC, so that's... only useful on one of them, if it's even that good in comparison with just using an item of +X deflection bonus to AC.

[Keld Denar]

No, the shield bonus is inherant in the object, not in the magic. Granted, you might be able to craft something like a Ring of Force Shielding that has a type other than shield, but as such the magic of a shield is simply an enhancement bonus to the shield bonus, not any type of bonus in and of itself. Thats the reason enhancement bonuses on armor and shield stack with each other, because tehy aren't enhancement bonuses to your AC, they are enhancement bonuses to the armor and shield bonuses to your AC.

Its kinda wierd like that. An artificer COULD create a shield that gives and enhancement bonus to your shield bonus, a sacred bonus to your shield bonus, an insight bonus to your shield bonus, a competance bonus to your shield bonus, etc...which would make it REALLY strong with Inlindl School for getting a HUGE bonus on your attack bonus.

[Person_Man]

Its kinda wierd like that. An artificer COULD create a shield that gives and enhancement bonus to your shield bonus, a sacred bonus to your shield bonus, an insight bonus to your shield bonus, a competance bonus to your shield bonus, etc...which would make it REALLY strong with Inlindl School for getting a HUGE bonus on your attack bonus.

How much would something like that cost? I'm not up on Artificer crafting rules.

[Coidzor]

How much would something like that cost? I'm not up on Artificer crafting rules.

Well, without going into MIC, there's this line on the second table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues)in the section in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). "AC bonus (other)2 Bonus squared × 2,500 gp"

With 2 referring to "Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus."

edit: So going with +1 shield with +5 sacred, deflection, insight, natural armor and luck bonuses to AC. That's 3*25*1875= 140,625 gp for the sacred, insight, and luck bonuses, 2*25*1500= 75,000 gp for the deflection and natural armor bonuses, 500 for the enhancement bonus, and the cost of the shield itself.

So ~216,125 gp + the cost of the shield for making that, in addition to whatever other things that would go on it. +1 of each would be 5625+3000+500+cost of shield(S) = S + 9125 gp, so a bit more than a +2 weapon.

Of course, an artificer would likely have some cost reduction techniques (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0), with the most basic feat giving 25% off on the cost of gold for items taking it down to 162,093.75 gp for the first and 6,843.75 gp for the latter. .75 gp equaling 7 sp and 5 cp.

Based off of a creation cost of .75 from half market value creation costs + this clause:
Multiple Similar Abilities

For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities

Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

Edit: Bolded for clarity as to what I was referencing.

[Person_Man]

That's a tad expensive, but not horrible. In addition or as an alternative to Inlindl School, you could enchant your shield with Empyreal (BoED) and shift your Shield bonus to Saves. (Note that it's more expensive as a standard Cloak of Resistance, but the bonuses stack).

[Douglas]

Based off of a creation cost of .75 from half market value creation costs + this clause:
In that clause, "similar" means "uses the same resource or is in some other way not possible to gain full benefit of both abilities simultaneously". It most emphatically does not mean "affects the same thing". Staffs use the "similar" ability pricing because all abilities draw from the same limited pool of charges. Pretty much everything else uses the "extra non-similar abilities get 50% markup" clause.

[Coidzor]

In that clause, "similar" means "uses the same resource or is in some other way not possible to gain full benefit of both abilities simultaneously". It most emphatically does not mean "affects the same thing". Staffs use the "similar" ability pricing because all abilities draw from the same limited pool of charges. Pretty much everything else uses the "extra non-similar abilities get 50% markup" clause.

1/2*3/2 = 3/4 or .75

Edit: edited it to be more clear, was just including the prior bit for the full context of the clause. Was always referring to the second part.

[ffone]

I don't think insight/sacred/luck AC bonuses would be increases TO your shield bonus; they're just separate bonus types (like deflection and natural armor) which, in this example just happen to be put on the shield rather than, say, a ring. They are not part of your 'shield bonus'. And so probably wouldn't help the Inlindl bonus.

[true_shinken]

Well, not under RAW, but it seems like a pretty reasonable houserule.
Except using two shields at once makes no sense whatsoever :smallamused:

[Amnestic]

Except using two shields at once makes no sense whatsoever :smallamused:

In reality? Yeah, maybe. But in reality, sword+board or two handers ruled. In D&D, sword+board blows is not as great as it should be and two weapon fighting rocks.

Frankly the idea of a guy in full plate wielding two huge shields (and maybe a tower shield on his back too) charging towards monsters is just too cool an image to give up on :smallcool:

[true_shinken]

In reality? Yeah, maybe. But in reality, sword+board or two handers ruled. In D&D, sword+board blows is not as great as it should be and two weapon fighting rocks.


http://www.superherostuff.com/OtherItems/RefrigeratorMagnets/Images/joker_magnet_laughing_2.jpg
Two handers are so much better than TWF in D&D that it's not even funny.

[Amnestic]

Two handers are so much better than TWF in D&D that it's not even funny.

Well the Joker found it funny...

I was comparing it to sword and board/reality rather than two handers anyway. How often do you really see people wielding two swords in reality? Not often! Musashi's probably the most famous example, but other than that...sort of lacking.

Which was my point. It's better in D&D than reality. Just like two shields might should be. :smallamused:

[Matamane]

Vikings did it to great success... Twin Shields were a staple in their armies.

[true_shinken]

Vikings did it to great success... Twin Shields were a staple in their armies.
Never heard of it and neither did google (unless you're talking about a golf club).

[Matamane]

oops, mis spoke their, they used shields with two hands, not a shield in either hand.

[true_shinken]

oops, mis spoke their, they used shields with two hands, not a shield in either hand.
That's the best way to use a shield offensively in D&D, btw.




I was comparing it to sword and board/reality rather than two handers anyway. How often do you really see people wielding two swords in reality? Not often! Musashi's probably the most famous example, but other than that...sort of lacking.
Musashi is one example, yes. You also get pirates (sword and gun), fencers (rapier plus main gauche), brawlers (improvised weapons plus fist), knights (sword and board - a shield is a weapons, after all) and many many others.

[Lans]

You can also fight with two shields (presumably one is Animated and you wield the other is wielded two handed) and only sacrifice the shield bonus from one, while keeping the AC bonus from the second shield.
You can then expertise the bonus away.

[elonin]

Samurai Jack made it work in one episode.

[JaronK]

You can use two shields along with the Shield Charge and Shield Slam feats, plus pounce. Now when you charge your TWF character has MANY opportunities to daze enemies.

JaronK

[Set]

Green Ronin's Plot & Poison has some feats and a dedicated fighting style called 'Mithral Carapace' that focus around dual shield use.

It's a neat visual, and no less mechanically absurd than a spiked chain or dire flail or monkey-gripped mercurial elven curveblade.

Tortoise Blades or a Pathfinder weapon called the Klar, essentially a small shield with a katar-blade sticking out of it, are cool looking options to dual wield. Even if I didn't feel comfortable allowing a full strength 'dual shielding' feat or option, I'd probably be inclined to allow someone to dual wield Klar or Tortoise Blades and take advantage of their shield bonuses, with some feat expenditures.

Indeed, it might be one way to make dual-wielding not suck quite so much, as that sort of character would also get some stacking shield bonuses, while dual wielding, at the cost of a couple extra feats...

Regardless, if a player came up to me and said he wanted to try it, I'd be *far* more inclined to work with him on the idea than if he came up with an idea that involved a spiked chain or a whip-dagger or a mercurial glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive.

Captain America has spoiled my suspension of disbelief, when it comes to smacking people with shields being an effective tactic. :)

[panaikhan]

Not really a 'shield', but I think there's a set armoured Bracers somewhere (Dastani?). Don't know if they give a shield bonus, or are considered 'piecemeal' armour.
On the plus side, they free up a hand!

[Coidzor]

Not really a 'shield', but I think there's a set armoured Bracers somewhere (Dastani?). Don't know if they give a shield bonus, or are considered 'piecemeal' armour.
On the plus side, they free up a hand!

Shield bonus that stacks with regular shield bonus, I believe is how it goes. They're from the Arms and Equipment Guide as well as Oriental Adventures, IIRC.