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tedthehunter
2011-02-28, 01:12 PM
ITT: DM's and players discuss techniques for a DM to use in order to encourage the PCs to participate in events that they would normally bypass. In addition I would like to discuss what players do NOT like when it comes to DM rulings.

I am a budding DM of 4e, and would like to learn something about what players in general think about DM style, and how to avoid railroading.

Specifically, my players will engage in combat anytime I present the opportunity, but will purposefully botch skill challenges, (primarily the social ones), by saying silly things and attacking potential allies.:smallmad:

Any advice on how to incentivize roleplaying? Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2011-02-28, 01:21 PM
Basically you need to either change their mindset or change the game. If they don't want to "roleplay" then they won't. Realistic consequences of actions will help to an extent, but overall it's something that needs to be dealt with primarily out of game.

A good rule of thumb is don't use in-game consequences for out-of-game issues.


To encourage roleplaying, what you'll want to do is find out about what interests their characters and put things in the world that plays to those interests, either positive or negative. Try not to do too much on the negative though, because there are only so many times you can kidnap their families/threaten their loved ones before they just stop being interested in having those.

valadil
2011-02-28, 01:31 PM
Specifically, my players will engage in combat anytime I present the opportunity, but will purposefully botch skill challenges, (primarily the social ones), by saying silly things and attacking potential allies.:smallmad:

Sounds like they're new to the freedom that RP provides. Let them do what they want, but react with realistic consequences. If they feel they can botch skill challenges, but still win the quest, then they'll treat your SCs as a joke. Instead, have them fail to impress whomever they're talking to or get arrested for assaulting NPCs.

You can't let them progress the quest by being jackasses. But you can build story from it. Assuming the NPC they spoke with is a quest giver, have him give the quest to a party of NPCs instead. Rival adventuring parties are always a fun addition.

BRC
2011-02-28, 01:49 PM
Alright, here's the thing. It's not Railroading until they want to leave the train.

Players sit down at the table looking for fun, this means that, unless they're feeling stubborn, they will bite plot hooks. If you say "Weird lights are seen over a nearby village", they will take it upon themselves to go check it out, because they understand that is what you have planned, and that they will have more fun investigating these lights than wandering off in a random direction.

Now, to the actual question, which is more about Player motivation than PC's.

First, figure out why they are acting this way. Are they simply uninterested in roleplaying? Do they not know what is expected of them? Do they think "Lol, it's just RP, whatever I do the plot will move forward".

If the first, change your game. Either convince them to try RPing, or just cut it out and replace it with more bloodthirsty orcs.
If the second, talk with them, inform them that you expect them to take these encounters seriously.
If the third, shove them off the train. If you expected them to help the town guards, and instead they attack them, have some real consequences for that. Without the guard's help they don't know where the goblins are coming from, and so fall into an ambush. The local Baron hears about people attacking his soldiers and dispatches troops to bring them in.

tedthehunter
2011-02-28, 04:34 PM
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! :smallsmile:

I'm think that the problem is, they aren't really used to the ability to try anything they want, and I'm not quite confident enough in my abilities to just come up with a punishment on the spot. I have thought of having them be attacked by guards, but had no idea where to start when it came to creating stats for them on the spot. I suppose that will come with time.

Thanks again, and I would like to encourage players to post what stimulates their enjoyment of the game, and maybe some suggestions as to how to cater to all my players.

As of now, I have:
2 power gamers (min/maxed like professionals :smallmad:)
1 Silly Roleplayer (usually just makes bad situations worse, which I'm ok with, but sometimes he curbs the game with his antics)
1 Inventor (rather good roleplayer, usually leaves the party for hours at a time to assemble his various contraptions)
1 serious roleplayer (unfortunately his character is a stoic monk and rarely speaks, and he also has trouble making it to the sessions sometimes. Great roleplayer though, speaks in metaphors only :smallcool:)

valadil
2011-02-28, 04:37 PM
I'm think that the problem is, they aren't really used to the ability to try anything they want, and I'm not quite confident enough in my abilities to just come up with a punishment on the spot. I have thought of having them be attacked by guards, but had no idea where to start when it came to creating stats for them on the spot. I suppose that will come with time.


Punishments don't have to be immediate. Maybe the players leave town but the guards are waiting for them when they return.

As a side note I always have guards statted. For some odd reason, they always come up in my games.

tedthehunter
2011-02-28, 04:48 PM
Punishments don't have to be immediate. Maybe the players leave town but the guards are waiting for them when they return.

As a side note I always have guards statted. For some odd reason, they always come up in my games.

I'll have to pull up some stats, it seems like a good idea to have those prepared. Thanks for the advice! :smallsmile:

bloodtide
2011-02-28, 05:31 PM
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! :smallsmile:I have thought of having them be attacked by guards, but had no idea where to start when it came to creating stats for them on the spot. I suppose that will come with time.

Easy Trick: Open any book with monsters in it. And randomly pick one of the right level to be a challenge. It does not matter what the monster IS, you can use the 'Mud-Doom Snakes' for guards.

For a bit more perpetration, simply find any stats that are 'guard like'(humanoids with arms and armor) and use them. It might say 'hobgoblin thug' in the book, but you use them as 'human guards'.


For role playing things, you just need to make things more exciting. More 'fantasy like'. Not modern. For example, when they meet a lord, you expect rules and order like a boring meeting. So spice it up more. Don't have them act 'politically correct' around the lord. Make it a crazy and wild skill challenge. Such as the lord challenging them to wrestle or archery or such. Go wild, give them a 'bomb' and tell them 'you have a minute to disarm this'.

To get everyone to act you just need to make things interesting. Bribes, normally work great. They don't want a reward of 'a wooden spoon', but will go nuts over a powerful magic item.

And don't make social stuff so modern PC too. It will help curb the 'crazy player'. Say he moons the lord. Just have the lord laugh and do nothing or do something crazy like light his butt on fire.

NMBLNG
2011-02-28, 06:19 PM
One major thing to help new RPing: Don't react with realistic consequences. React with AWESOME consequences. They can be consequences, but they have to be fun. If they insult the king, make them regain their honor by winning a tournament or something.

Give players a more open ended task. 'Kill all the attacking orcs', or 'clear the dungeon' are a bit too linear. An example would be a bounty posting for a thief/ criminal NPC, or to capture some important NPC, or gather information about X. Any situation where 'kill everything' is obviously a non-optimal solution. It can be a viable solution, just not the easiest.

Find something one of the 'lead' PCs wants to do. Then help them do it, and get that player to get the rest of the group to come along.

valadil
2011-02-28, 07:04 PM
Oh, another thing. Give them tasks they want to do. You may think your quest to help the Pelorites clear undead out of the cemetery is awesome, but if your PCs aren't into undead or religion they won't take it as seriously.

tedthehunter
2011-02-28, 09:57 PM
Wow! Thanks a million you guys! The last few posts are very helpful! :smallsmile:

I also wanted to ask what the general opinion is on recurring villains. Do you think that the chance to have a villain with a very fleshed out story and personality is worth the risk of the Players getting bored of him/it? It would also be easier to have one main villain as all I would have to do is increase his level with the party's.

zorba1994
2011-02-28, 10:00 PM
I also wanted to ask what the general opinion is on recurring villains. Do you think that the chance to have a villain with a very fleshed out story and personality is worth the risk of the Players getting bored of him/it? It would also be easier to have one main villain as all I would have to do is increase his level with the party's.


In my experience, if I give a villain a good enough personality, my players forgive my deus ex machina-ing him so that they can see him again.

This only works as long as they get a satisfying close to his plot arc eventually though.

However, one main villain for the entire campaign I have not tried out. I have, however, done several, closely related villains all in collusion in one campaign (think Assassin's Creed style without the final boss), and that works well.

Cerlis
2011-03-01, 01:58 AM
number one thing i hear DMs do that is bad is "I want the Players to be diplomatic with this villian, but i dont want them to outright kill him if they wont talk. so i'll make him 6 levels higher than them and kill half of them if they decide to fight."
Ideas include
-If a villian isnt willing to use much hostile force,then he can be that much stronger.Control spells(mind control, entangle, Forceful teleportation) can allow him to get the PCs of getting tired of fighting him and maybe listen to what he has to say (just dont mary sue it.)
-When you face a villian, it doesnt have to be in person. bursting into the room thinking you are going to face a villian, only to realize its just his second in command (Big grotesque intelligent horror) talking to a Sending Hologram device receptor. They get to see the villian, fight a monster, kill it, without killing your master mind
-Powerful people worthy of being a big bad evil guy always have contingincy plans. doing something that there are no rules for, but is dramatic and interesting and maybe not expessially good for the villian are always interesting. one time he might have a teleportation ring. anothertime he might have a secret door. the last time he in his last breath might literally jump out of his skin and his spirit jumps into a PC who just finished him off.
-if you have any monster, villian, or enemy PC, terrain can be a help when it comes to giving a chance to diplomacy. maybe the guy is a weak ranger, but he has skill focus hide and move silently and is fast. the "fight" consists of him giving pot shots at them for invading his realm, while they try to find him. His snark and comments force them to talk to him and it has the possibility of them either talking it out while they hunt for each other, or maybe they scare him and he leaves. think of all those movies where you have someone like jack sparrow. Who is an enemy one minute, gets out cus of cleverness. an ally the next minute for his own ends. then he betrays them, but it turns otu to be a ruse. except he did it for himself, and it so happens to help the PCs also. ....whatever

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also, as for other stuff. is the whole fighting thing an issue with questgivers or encounters with diplomatic possibilities.
one thing might be to give em a few sessions of practice. where the villians are obvious evil "dont want to talk to them" people, and questgivers are prisoners, or victims. but you'd make any villian or victim obvious. so whenever you have someone intermediate they will hesitate (though i dont know if this will work).

tedthehunter
2011-03-01, 02:28 AM
Well I'm blown away, and extremely grateful, thanks everyone! :smallsmile:
I've got plenty of ideas now for an upcoming campaign that I will be co-DMing, I'll have to post how it turns out. I figure that with practice, my DMing skills will grow to the point where I can handle this type of stuff fairly easily.

BG
2011-03-01, 03:01 AM
Another thing I would mention about recurring villains depends on how the characters react to him or her. You don't want the characters to like them, but you don't want them to absolutely hate them either.

It makes the most sense in pro-wrestling terms. You need a heel, or bad guy, and the players have to want to beat them. But you don't want them to hate them so much that it turns them off from the game.

For example, I had one wizard antagonist who kept escaping (I wasn't just deciding that, I actually gave him the spells he needed to get away). Either way, while he made an interesting antagonist, after the 3rd time he got away, it was obviously really annoying the players. Thus, they spent an entire session planning a trap for him. At that point, I decided that I would yield to the players wishes, and let them kill the wizard (there were some wrinkles because of it).

As far as other advice with your players, I'd recommend a few things. First, when you talk about having consequences for their actions, don't think of it as explicitly punishing your players, I think that kind of adversarial mindset doesn't help anyone. While people in this thread have come up with a lot of good advice for how to deal with that in character, I would advise talking with your group out of character. Explain where you're coming from and what you want out of the game, and ask the same from them. Heck, I've sat down with players before and just straight-up asked them to not optimize their character because it creates a players vs. DM conflict.

tedthehunter
2011-03-01, 03:13 AM
As far as other advice with your players, I'd recommend a few things. First, when you talk about having consequences for their actions, don't think of it as explicitly punishing your players, I think that kind of adversarial mindset doesn't help anyone.

Right, I agree with that. What I really mean is not that I wish to punish my players, just that there are certain consequences that have to be implemented in order to retain the (minimal) realism of the game.

Generally, the question pops into my mind, "How realistic should this fantasy be?"

obliged_salmon
2011-03-01, 08:34 AM
Some things that might make your players less likely to kill your BBEG right away:

-BBEG can be related to one (or more) of the PCs, either parent, sibling, good friend etc.

-BBEG can be sponsoring the PCs for some reason, gifting them monies in return for their "continued good work." Be totally up front that he's the bad guy, who does bad things. It will drive the players crazy, wondering how their activities are furthering the bad guy's goals.

-BBEG has important position in society, and killing/attacking him results in quick and horrible consequences (not as easy for high level characters)

-BBEG is never around. He communicates with party via letters, henchmen, etc. When PCs come a-calling, he's off in the community doing charity work or something.