optimization question

[big teej]

hey playgrounders,

I've a question.

I, as an individual, am familiar with the tier system, the fact 'melee can't have nice things' 'monks suck' etc etc etc.

my group however
is what I believe these boards would term "hyper low optimized"

we have a fighter who regularly outclasses our druid

the pathfinder alchemist was considered overpowered in regards to the rest of the party

I had to tell a cleric not to prepare heal spells.

etc. etc. etc.


the point of this post, and my question is.

how optimized does a group need to be for the Tome of Battle to NOT be immedietly be considered overpowered?

more information on my group is available upon request.

*for the record, I'm not out to make my group optimize more, I'm a huge fan of 'self discovery' so if they learn to optimize, they'll do it on their own. and even if they do, the feel I get from the group is that they wouldn't enjoy such a process.


so suggestions on how to 'improve' my group are not looked for.

[MammonAzrael]

Given that ToB has well designed classes that are strong out-of-the-box instead of requiring optimization knowledge to keep them from sucking, I'd say that your group would need to have a passing acquaintance with optimization, and routinely play at least at Tier 3.

It sounds like if you want ToB in your game, you can't be the one to play with it. You'll have to pick up a caster and show (but not break) their power, while your group plays with classes that are hard to screw up, like ToB, Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Duskblade. Also, avoid level 1-7 if possible, as those are generally considered when ToB classes appear the most over-powered.

Of course, be sure your DM is in on this too, otherwise he'll just over-react and believe its all absurd power-gaming.

But remember that this will change things, and if you're having fun with the group, you may just need to find another group to get your ToB lust out.

[faceroll]

How often do you fight things that fly, turn invisible, cast 9 spells a round, teleport, spam save-or-dies, use battlefield control, or debuff? If you have a lot of pitched battles, you can expect tiers 6-4 to do quite well.

[Zuljita]

IMO ToB will feel overpowered until the wizard/cleric/druid start coming into their own. It's kind of a subjective benchmark, but power levels always are. I found that my players really upped their optimization game when one player started running a beguiler, once they saw the utility of non damage attacks things got... crazy.

[Kylarra]

A hyper-low optimized group will have trouble with Tome of Battle for sure. They provide strong chassis with both special abilities and class abilities. I'd say a moderate level of optimization or a tendency to play high end tier 4, tier 3 classes would have to be the absolute minimum. Familiarity with the usual magic [ab]use for tier 1/2 will help as well, but it isn't strictly necessary.

If the druid is being consistently outperformed by the fighter though, I'd say ToB is definitely too much right now.

[big teej]

snippity snip

Also, avoid level 1-7 if possible, as those are generally considered when ToB classes appear the most over-powered.

Of course, be sure your DM is in on this too, otherwise he'll just over-react and believe its all absurd power-gaming.

But remember that this will change things, and if you're having fun with the group, you may just need to find another group to get your ToB lust out.

it's not so much TOB lust, so much as "I plan to own every 3.x book"

the DMs would obviously be brought in on this (heck, I'm one of them)

and at this time we don't even HAVE the ToB, I'm just planning ahead



How often do you fight things that fly, turn invisible, cast 9 spells a round, teleport, spam save-or-dies, use battlefield control, or debuff? If you have a lot of pitched battles, you can expect tiers 6-4 to do quite well.

we started at level 1 in both campaigns, thus far
0 flying enemies (there is a dragon coming up in one though)
0 invisible enemies (but one combat with hidden snipers)
1 enemy caster (the caster was like level 3)
1 enemy that used 'control' (tripped people with a spiked chain)

if you define 'pitched battle' as 'lots of mooks and meleers' then yes, almost exclusively that.



A hyper-low optimized group will have trouble with Tome of Battle for sure. They provide strong chassis with both special abilities and class abilities. I'd say a moderate level of optimization or a tendency to play high end tier 4, tier 3 classes would have to be the absolute minimum. Familiarity with the usual magic [ab]use for tier 1/2 will help as well, but it isn't strictly necessary.

If the druid is being consistently outperformed by the fighter though, I'd say ToB is definitely too much right now.


I figured as much
campaign A (teej as DM)
Human Paladin
Dwarf Fighter
Half-elf ranger - deceased
Gnome Cleric - replacing ranger
Human Barbarian
Half-Elf Ranger - deceased
Gnome Bard - replacing Ranger
Elf Druid - MIA - player is on hiatus from gaming
Human Ranger


campaign B (teej as player)
Human Knight
Gnome homebrew alchemist (pathfinder alchemist deemed 'too good')
Halfling Rogue
Half-Orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Human Cleric
Halfling Fighter - MIA, same player as druid


thus far our biggest contributers have hands down been the paladin and Alchemist (prior homebrew)

judging by last night's session, I think the Barbarian is now the premier combatant in group B



in summary: it would appear that my group is going to have to wait for a loooooooong time to use the Tomb of Battle.
I'd rather not buy a book and have it banned out of existence/make core 'obsolete'

oh well.

[Douglas]

how optimized does a group need to be for the Tome of Battle to NOT be immedietly be considered overpowered?
The group needs to have at least a passing acquaintance with the concept of optimization, or you need to deliberately anti-optimize your ToB character.

Judging by the descriptions you've given of your group, a typical straightforward out-of-the-box ToB build with super obvious choices would likely overpower everyone with ease.

On the scale of "Cursed Commoner" to "Planar Shepherd", a typical ToB character is below "DMM (Persist) Cleric" but not by a huge margin.

[big teej]

On the scale of "Cursed Commoner" to "Planar Shepherd", a typical ToB character is below "DMM (Persist) Cleric" but not by a huge margin.

I think that about sums it up then.

I'd peg my group at somewhere between a well played warrior, and ......

and..........................

a Knight played to its abilities (but not a supercharger)

[nyarlathotep]

On the scale of "Cursed Commoner" to "Planar Shepherd", a typical ToB character is below "DMM (Persist) Cleric" but not by a huge margin.

I have to respectfully disagree. A DMM cleric outshines a TOB character by a big margin. If we are assuming a straight-class TOB character (no windicator or true master of nine shinanegans) I would peg them right around the same level as a well played blaster wizard, a druid who stays in wildshape all the time but forgot to take natural spell (I know I know, but we're talking theoretical), or barbarian that took good prestige classes without going into stupidly powerful things (bear warrior, frenzied zerker, or black blood cultist).

Then again I may just be overestimating DMM clerics.

[KillianHawkeye]

ToB is basically for a group where the Druid and Cleric are better fighters than the Fighter, where the Paladin can't keep up with the Cleric, and where the Monk is still amused by his ability to run all over the battlefield despite his lack of ability to really accomplish anything.

That sounds like the opposite of your group.

[big teej]

ToB is basically for a group where the Druid and Cleric are better fighters than the Fighter, where the Paladin can't keep up with the Cleric, and where the Monk is still amused by his ability to run all over the battlefield despite his lack of ability to really accomplish anything.

That sounds like the opposite of your group.

I did mention natural spell to the druid for the record.

and yes that does sound like a fair assessment.

.... meaning (I'm guessing) that TOB is actually "unneeded" by my group.

on a related note to the optimization question.

Leadership, My Knight (see group B above) is probably going to take it. (my Knight needs an entourage as befitting his station)

do any of you forsee this being an issue given the described op level of the party?

[MammonAzrael]

No. Chances are any of the abusive things they could do with it hasn't even come close to occurring to them.
As befitting his station? Is he a noble or something? Because if he is just a knight, then his "station" is to be a follower or cohort to someone else who took Leadership. :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

we started at level 1 in both campaigns, thus far
0 flying enemies (there is a dragon coming up in one though)
0 invisible enemies (but one combat with hidden snipers)
1 enemy caster (the caster was like level 3)
1 enemy that used 'control' (tripped people with a spiked chain)

if you define 'pitched battle' as 'lots of mooks and meleers' then yes, almost exclusively that.

Well there you go. A well built fighter is going to be just as dangerous, if not more so, than ToB, in those situations. Fighters tend to have a lot more offensive power than ToB, since fighters that get to used full attacks clean up, and ToB is balanced around using standard actions. Of course, you'll get stuff like Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Mind, but druids and clerics get similar protective abilities.

[big teej]

No. Chances are any of the abusive things they could do with it hasn't even come close to occurring to them.
As befitting his station? Is he a noble or something? Because if he is just a knight, then his "station" is to be a follower or cohort to someone else who took Leadership. :smallsmile:


response to point 1: I'm the one taking leadership, hence the question.

response to point 2: we're treating him as being of sufficient social status that nobody is raising an eyebrow at us interacting with royalty.