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zenon
2011-03-01, 02:49 AM
MM 2 p. 162

Have anyone ever tried using one of them? I tried last night and I almost killed two of my players.
The way I see it I didn't even use all of its potential (alter self = more natural armour), but its tripping thrust and augmentet critical means that it will trip players on almost every attack, combined with haste, it makes 4 attacks per round with +12.


Note: my players are lvl 9 but they have a lvl adjustment ranging from 3-5.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-03-01, 02:58 AM
Haven't, but I've always kind've wanted to.

ffone
2011-03-01, 03:21 AM
Haste should make it 3 attacks, not 4.

I used some as a DM, and it was a hard fight, but mostly that was b/c the sneak attacker was the party's best damage dealer usually, and of course sneak attackers hate constructs (and she used small weapons - easy to disarm).

Believe it or not, the auto-trip thing actually never happened the whole fight; they just got really unlucky with rolling in the threat range.

They should threaten with, what, 30% of attacks, (15-20), and those won't all confirm, and then there's a Reflex save (which is weird - if they'd been updated to 3.5 the Reflex save would probably be replaced with a 'normal' free trip attempt, like a wolf's). So with 3 attacks per round at 30% each, that's less than 1 trip per round.

My suggestion to DMs is not to use Alter Self in an 'optimized' way (scouting every MM for the absolute best form to change into); it's probably just for 'social' purposes in their case (disguises), and anyway wouldn't they lose their rapier hand and tripping thrusts if they morphed?

I really like them b/c they are intelligent constructs, which are rare (and the Inevitables have restrictive fluff - the PCs have to commit certain 'crimes'). And they are very agile and fast and bely the stereotype of lumbering golems. They make fantastic guardians or even roaming agents for your BBEG, since they have some of the upshots of regular construct goons (they can be found in places with no food source) but the potential for social interaction. Their spell-like abilities open up fun options: Alter Self to disguise themselves as friendlies, or Feather Fall for a 'paratrooper' ambush.

Also disarming and tripping PCs is fun.

It's weird they lack Weapon Finesse. Maybe b/c 3.0 Weapon Finesse was weapon-specific and I'm not sure if natural attacks could get it then.

If you create advanced versions with extra racial HD or class levels, it should clearly be a feat choice. Levels of Swashbuckler would suit them.

zenon
2011-03-01, 03:34 AM
In 3,5 they threathen on 12-20 which means that when the highest ac was 24 it could crit on almost every attack, or maybe that's just because I roll well.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 03:47 AM
The online 3.5 update for MM2 (and other 3.0 books) reduced the critical range on a Nimblewright's strikes to 15-20.

ffone
2011-03-01, 03:55 AM
In 3,5 they threathen on 12-20 which means that when the highest ac was 24 it could crit on almost every attack, or maybe that's just because I roll well.

I was using the errata zenon mentioned.

Also, how is 12-20 "every attack"? It'd be 45% at best. No matter how low the party AC is, your percentage of attacks which are crits can't exceed

P = (width of threat range) / 20.

times 95%, b/c of natural 1s. That occurs iff you hit on a 2.

If a characters hits with all of their threat range, say, 15-20 and 15 is not a miss, then their fraction of HITS which are crits will be exactly P. Otherwise it will be (whatever width does hit) / 20. If their chance is hitting is 'Q' then their percentage of attacks which are crits will be P*Q. For example if they need a 5 to hit, and have a threat range of 15-20, then 0.3 * 0.8 = 0.24 of their attacks are crits.

Maybe you're doing threats wrong?

zenon
2011-03-01, 05:00 AM
I know that if you threathen you don't automatically crit, but with the highest ac = 24 then if I hit I would crit 40% of the time (+12 atk)
This also means that if I hit him, I will threathen him (not with the threat range 15-20, but I used the 12-20)

absolmorph
2011-03-01, 05:38 AM
ffone: Wrong. You have a 45% chance of getting a crit on each attack, with a 12-20 range. However, it's entirely possible for you to get a string of 10 crits in a row. It's called "luck", and it plays a part in practical probability.
To illustrate, I'm going to use a diceroller to roll 20d20. Statistically, I should get 20 different numbers.
16, 3, 5, 4, 20, 14, 12, 8, 4, 1, 1, 20, 5, 9, 1, 9, 7, 16, 3, 1
I got 4 1s, 2 20s, 2 5s, 2 4s, 2 3s and 2 9s. Let's do it again.
16, 5, 16, 11, 15, 6, 4, 17, 11, 8, 18, 7, 11, 3, 11, 14, 3, 18, 17, 11
2 16s, 5 11s, 2 17s and 2 18s.

It's improbable that the number of critical threats will exceed P= (width of thread range)/20, but it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE FOR IT TO HAPPEN.
Thank you for your time, and please do not make this mistake again.

EDIT: I realized the numbers I generated seem like I'm just doing it for lulz. They're to illustrate my point that the probable outcome is not always the actual outcome (which is shown by the multiple instances of the numbers). By the way, the averages of those sets are 7.95 and 11.1, respectively. That's an overall average of 9.525. The average roll of a d20 is 10.5.

Dice hate me.

Serpentine
2011-03-01, 07:04 AM
Sort of. One was sent to get blood samples from all the party members so the quest-giver could semi-trick us into signing a contract in our own blood, making it a Geas. They haven't thought of it since... Bit of a waste, I like the idea of those things.

Yora
2011-03-01, 08:06 AM
They are probably the one creature in the MM2 that really cought my interest. Never used them, though.

Ashtar
2011-03-01, 08:42 AM
I once managed to get my DM to let me play one ^^. Was great fun, for the short two sessions it lasted.

Cog
2011-03-01, 09:45 AM
This also means that if I hit him, I will threathen him (not with the threat range 15-20, but I used the 12-20)
I think I might see the confusion here. The crit range refers to your die roll, not your attack roll. You don't get a higher chance of rolling a threat just because your attack bonus goes up.

Land Outcast
2011-03-01, 10:59 AM
The mystic theurge in my first campaign ended up owning one and didn't break anything, but of course, they were level 16 by thet time...

Psyborg
2011-03-01, 11:50 AM
I've given serious thought to playing the Nimblewright Monster Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9471896&postcount=123), but always ended up shying away from it because my DMs tend more toward damaging threats than disabling ones, and even the long list of construct immunities wasn't worth having practically no HP due to "Con --".

That said, they're awesome and I still want to play one someday...going into one of the non-sucky homebrew Swashbuckler remakes, of course. (Possibly with a Snowflake Wardance / Dragonfire Inspiration Bard dip? But I digress.)

Nimblewrights are to Warforged as D'Artagnan is to me. And that is why they are awesome.

Aemoh87
2011-03-01, 12:20 PM
Nimblewrights are one of the only good things to come out of MM2. They are a challenge and make great minions :)

Lans
2011-03-01, 01:07 PM
Their AC was very high back in 3.0, when haste gave +4, and the cats grace gave it 3.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 01:10 PM
I think of them as a bit like D&D-style T-1000 terminators- construct, fast, can disguise self as humanoid, stabbing weapon arms.

ffone
2011-03-01, 03:25 PM
ffone: Wrong. You have a 45% chance of getting a crit on each attack, with a 12-20 range.

Hmm, do natural 1s on the threat roll confirm? Otherwise it's at best 45% * 95%, if a roll of 2 is a hit.



However, it's entirely possible for you to get a string of 10 crits in a row. It's called "luck", and it plays a part in practical probability.

Straw man. I said "percentage of" and "fraction of" several times- I think it was sufficiently obvious to everyone else in the thread I was referring to the average. Did you really think I was claiming that each attack is .24 of a crit? Like each family having 2.3 children?

With N binary trials of success probability P each, the number of successes is binomial (N,P). This has mean NP, variance NP(1-P), and probability mass function Choose(n,k) P^k (1-P)^(N-k). I'm sure there are fine Wikipedia and Wolfram articles about this and more.

Also, interesting fact: the number of trials until the first success is a 'geometric' distribution; which has mean 1/P, and this is where the 20x time for "taking 20" probably comes from.



To illustrate, I'm going to use a diceroller to roll 20d20. Statistically, I should get 20 different numbers.

Wrong. The odds of getting 20 unique numbers are quite small, 20! / 20^20.

You often see people claim taking 20 should take 10x the time, and it's based on this same fallacy.



It's improbable that the number of critical threats will exceed P= (width of thread range)/20

Also qualitatively wrong, I wouldn't call it 'improbable'. It's more likely to be something other than P*20 exactly, and roughly equally likely it'll be over or under. You could sum up one tail of the binomial mass function, but offhand I'd say >1/3 chance.



, but it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE FOR IT TO HAPPEN.
Thank you for your time, and please do not make this mistake again.


1. What mistake? Where did I say you get *exactly* P crits for every 20 attacks?

2. Since d20 rolls are always independent, and all these facts generally apply to consecutive saves, skill checks, etc., I considered it a waste of everyone's time to say "oh, but remember there is binomial variation" since, according to the tone of your post, everyone who makes statements about success probabilities and doesn't add that caveat is making a "mistake".

3. Insulting girls over math - how's that working for you in your personal life?

Tyndmyr
2011-03-01, 03:38 PM
I was using the errata zenon mentioned.

Also, how is 12-20 "every attack"? It'd be 45% at best. No matter how low the party AC is, your percentage of attacks which are crits can't exceed

P = (width of threat range) / 20.

times 95%, b/c of natural 1s. That occurs iff you hit on a 2.

If a characters hits with all of their threat range, say, 15-20 and 15 is not a miss, then their fraction of HITS which are crits will be exactly P. Otherwise it will be (whatever width does hit) / 20. If their chance is hitting is 'Q' then their percentage of attacks which are crits will be P*Q. For example if they need a 5 to hit, and have a threat range of 15-20, then 0.3 * 0.8 = 0.24 of their attacks are crits.

Maybe you're doing threats wrong?

You're correct, though there are optimization methods around it. For a quick example, stacking luck feats will let you reroll both attack rolls and crit confirms. If you're already running around a 45% crit threat, and a great confirm, that can give you a pretty hot crit streak....at least until the luck points run dry. With an NPC, this is not usually a great flaw, as they tend to die after a few rounds of combat with the party anyhow.

Edit: Also, ffone is doin' the stats right, at the cost of giving me flashbacks to my last stats class. Why, oh why, must every CS major be deluged with math?

Dralnu
2011-03-01, 04:08 PM
I'd like to throw a CR 15 version of one at my party but I don't know how to do it. Just advance the HD, or slap on something like rogue class levels?

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 04:10 PM
Class levels. Rogue, swordsage, something like that.

absolmorph
2011-03-01, 04:37 PM
Hmm, do natural 1s on the threat roll confirm? Otherwise it's at best 45% * 95%, if a roll of 2 is a hit.



Straw man. I said "percentage of" and "fraction of" several times- I think it was sufficiently obvious to everyone else in the thread I was referring to the average. Did you really think I was claiming that each attack is .24 of a crit? Like each family having 2.3 children?

With N binary trials of success probability P each, the number of successes is binomial (N,P). This has mean NP, variance NP(1-P), and probability mass function Choose(n,k) P^k (1-P)^(N-k). I'm sure there are fine Wikipedia and Wolfram articles about this and more.

Also, interesting fact: the number of trials until the first success is a 'geometric' distribution; which has mean 1/P, and this is where the 20x time for "taking 20" probably comes from.



Wrong. The odds of getting 20 unique numbers are quite small, 20! / 20^20.

You often see people claim taking 20 should take 10x the time, and it's based on this same fallacy.



Also qualitatively wrong, I wouldn't call it 'improbable'. It's more likely to be something other than P*20 exactly, and roughly equally likely it'll be over or under. You could sum up one tail of the binomial mass function, but offhand I'd say >1/3 chance.



1. What mistake? Where did I say you get *exactly* P crits for every 20 attacks?

2. Since d20 rolls are always independent, and all these facts generally apply to consecutive saves, skill checks, etc., I considered it a waste of everyone's time to say "oh, but remember there is binomial variation" since, according to the tone of your post, everyone who makes statements about success probabilities and doesn't add that caveat is making a "mistake".

3. Insulting girls over math - how's that working for you in your personal life?
Er...

Also, how is 12-20 "every attack"? It'd be 45% at best. No matter how low the party AC is, your percentage of attacks which are crits can't exceed

P = (width of threat range) / 20.
I bolded the part that I was stating was wrong. Sorry about that confusion. The general math of your post was correct (and I was lazy in the wording of mine; I meant critical threats, not just crits), but you were incorrect about the percentage of attacks that are crits never exceeding P = (width of threat range) / 20. That was my point. There is a way for it to exceed that number: get a string of lucky rolls.

And... where was the insult? Saying that you were wrong?

Quietus
2011-03-01, 04:54 PM
And... where was the insult? Saying that you were wrong?

Probably something about the tone of "voice" in :


Thank you for your time, and please do not make this mistake again.

And the general impression that it gives - namely, that you're far superior to the person that's directed to, and that they're being given the equivalent of a pat on the head for being so quaintly wrong.

ffone
2011-03-01, 06:56 PM
Er...

I bolded the part that I was stating was wrong. Sorry about that confusion. The general math of your post was correct (and I was lazy in the wording of mine; I meant critical threats, not just crits), but you were incorrect about the percentage of attacks that are crits never exceeding P = (width of threat range) / 20. That was my point. There is a way for it to exceed that number: get a string of lucky rolls.

That's not so much me being incorrect as you interpreting the word "percentage" in the a contextually absurd way. 'Percentage' and 'fraction' are used both to express probabilities and to express finite-sample fractions. And even if they weren't, the better inference about my 'mistake' would have been a semantic "hey, don't use the word percentage like that" rather than "clearly she was saying that d20 rolls are not independent and every 20 rolls magically give exactly P successes".

Obviously percentage meant 'in distribution' / 'on the average', not in any particular finite sample. Like when someone says a coin has a 50% chance of being heads, they don't mean that every two flips will give you one of each.
This is so obvious (it's the case with almost every repeated roll in DnD!) that it didn't even consciously occur to me someone might think I meant otherwise. (Apparently I did make *that* mistake!)

Also note that percentages are expressed out of 100, but it's not like we expect an NPC to get off 100 attacks before it dies. What were you even accusing me of saying - that every 20 attacks has exactly P crits (even though I gave an example of .24 which isn't of the form integer/20)? That every 100 has exactly 5P? That every attack is somehow "P/20" of a crit Again, it's like the joke about a family having 2.3 kids.



And... where was the insult? Saying that you were wrong?

What Quietus said.

tuesdayscoming
2011-03-01, 11:14 PM
The way I see it I didn't even use all of its potential (alter self = more natural armour)...

I don't think anyone's pointed it out yet; if so, apologies. The errata for MM2 replaced their at will Alter Self with at will Disguise Self. Less exciting, but still great.

zenon
2011-03-02, 04:44 AM
I'd like to throw a CR 15 version of one at my party but I don't know how to do it. Just advance the HD, or slap on something like rogue class levels?


Class levels. Rogue, swordsage, something like that.

Personally I'd say swashbuckler, I think it fits well with the while light fighter that I see them as.