Rope Trick Question

[Maquise]

This is purely hypothetical, and I hope never to come across this in my actual gaming career.

Let me start off by saying that I'm not a huge fan of the Rope Trick spell. Never actually encountered it, but the way it's written stinks of cheese to me. I'll probably ban it when I'm dming.

My actual question is this: Would burning or otherwise destroying the rope trap the occupants? The wording doesn't make that clear.

[Aharon]

Only till the spell ends:


Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.

[Firechanter]

I don't see what would be wrong with Rope Trick. It's a handy "Save Game" feature that was put in there for exactly this purpose - say, for resting up in a dungeon without having to worry about Wandering Monsters.

Normally, this spell allows a full night's rest only at 8th level, however a caster with Extend Spell can make it work at level 4. It beats having to traipse all the way up the dungeon and back to the inn, then into the dungeon and down again.

If you want the more "grim and gritty" exploration experience, you will have to ban a lot more spells than that. Highlevel parties can teleport wherever they need to go. Find the Path renders dungeons as such and mazes in general largely obsolete. Just to name a few.

I see it like this: if you don't want your PCs to use Rope Trick, you probably want to send bad things their way during resting period. If you interrupt a caster's rest sufficiently, they can't replenish their spells. Without spells they are useless. Players don't like feeling useless, so they won't enjoy your game a lot.
When a party realizes they are robbed of their magic support, they will likely retreat to a safe place anyway, so all you are doing with banning Rope Trick is waste everybody's game time. If you make them continue, see above regarding useless players not enjoying themselves.

[Gnaeus]

The better solutions in my opinion involve passage of time. This can be done in a long term sense (the player's village will be destroyed in 3 months if you do not complete your mega-quest, how long are you willing to spend on this part of it?), or a short term sense (kill the orc guards then rope trick? The orcs take all their treasure and leave, or they accelerate their plan to attack). Rope trick is only really a problem when it leads to the 1 encounter day.



My actual question is this: Would burning or otherwise destroying the rope trap the occupants? The wording doesn't make that clear.

Since you can pull the rope into the space behind you, this is rarely going to be an option for most enemies.

[Fitz10019]

You may expect the party to camp in a dangerous dungeon, but most likely, they'll be unwilling to do that. So, they'll retreat to a safe place, maybe even an inn. Will they encounter things along the way and back? If so, that'll probably be random encounters that don't advance your plot. If there are no encounters, then the hand-waving of that elapsed time will hurt the in-the-moment feeling of your game more than having a spell that explains why the party can sleep safely without retreating to civilization.

Just my 2 cents.

[Chilingsworth]

One interesting thing about rope trick: If you bring other extradimensional spaces inside it, the usual bad things happen.

From the PHB Rope Trick spell entry (Pg. 273)


Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional
space within an existing
extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional
space into an existing one.

So, if your party has any handy haversacks, portable holes, bags of holding, or the like, they have to leave them somewhere or go BOOM when they ropetrick. You can then have some inhabitant of the dungeon/area find these items and take them.

[Tyger]

One interesting thing about rope trick: If you bring other extradimensional spaces inside it, the usual bad things happen.

From the PHB Rope Trick spell entry (Pg. 273)



So, if your party has any handy haversacks, portable holes, bags of holding, or the like, they have to leave them somewhere or go BOOM when they ropetrick. You can then have some inhabitant of the dungeon/area find these items and take them.

This actually is a matter of great contention, please don't indicate that it is fact or RAW, though of course you are free to rule it that way in your games, and interpret it that way.

To the OP:

Rope Trick does lead to some issues, but many of them are accounted for with clever GMing that relies on consequences. If the party suddenly disappears in the middle of a dungeon populated with sentient and intelligent creatures, they will look for them, and plan for their return. If they have magically active folks in the dungeon, they may even be able to find the location of the Rope Trick and prepare all sort of interesting traps for the party when they come down.

Just my two coppers.

[Chilingsworth]

This actually is a matter of great contention, please don't indicate that it is fact or RAW, though of course you are free to rule it that way in your games, and interpret it that way.


How else could you possibly interpret it? :smallconfused:

The spell itself refrences the danger of mixing extradimensional spaces. The only other examples of this are with bags of holding and portable holes. The only remaining question I can think of is "Which type of extradimensional space does a rope trick count as for this purpose?"

[SurlySeraph]

I see it like this: if you don't want your PCs to use Rope Trick, you probably want to send bad things their way during resting period. If you interrupt a caster's rest sufficiently, they can't replenish their spells. Without spells they are useless. Players don't like feeling useless, so they won't enjoy your game a lot.

A common argument for banning Rope Trick is that it lets fighter-types play a valuable role, because someone needs to guard the casters while they refresh their spells; it gives the fighters a chance to shine with no chance of the casters overshadowing them. (I'd say that just reinforces the idea that melee only exists to protect the casters, but it's an argument).

[Keld Denar]

The only extradimensional spaces that explicitly mention what happens are when you take a bag of holding into a portable hole. Other spaces, like a haversack or secret chest or...anything, mention nothing about this. Rope trick only nods at that interaction, rather than defining what happens. Something doesn't ALWAYS happen...so...its kinda vague.

[Firechanter]

I think I read a WotC text just the other day advising strongly to treat that reference as "not written". Let me see if my google-fu can find it...

Ah right here we are, Skip Williams wrote that:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a

quoting for your convenience:

The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside.

That's really all there's to say about it. Rubbing your hands with an evil chuckle and shafting your players when they use commonplace lowlevel gear and magic does not improve a game.

[ericgrau]

You can try googling past threads on the debates on rope trick.

IMO if you have problems with rope trick then it leads into a slippery slope of banning many other things. I prefer the strategy-counter strategy approach to such things, as it's more interesting and strategic. What would happen if monsters tried it? Well, PCs would find them in about 5 seconds with the next of many detect magics. Or track. Or "hey why'd they suddenly disappear in this room." Or etc. About 15 seconds later the planning and debates would happen on how exactly the PCs will camp and ambush the monsters. 30 minutes of heated discussion later they would so, possibly popping a dispel if they have one and don't want to wait. Do the same. Monsters in general should be tactical, and I think your games will be more interesting and fun from it rather than banning everything that's a little different and not dramatically game changing on its own.

It is RAW that bringing an extra-dimensional space into a rope trick is hazardous. That's undebatable. What's open to interpretation is how bad it is. Any specific way to handle it is a suggestion only. Pick anything from nothing to anything by your preference. So this may or may not provide an additional challenge to shake things up. It's fully up to the DM, so I don't see much point in arguing it except to say that expecting it to be one way or the other is a bad assumption.

[Psyren]

One interesting thing about rope trick: If you bring other extradimensional spaces inside it, the usual bad things happen.

Here we go again...

[Chilingsworth]

I think I read a WotC text just the other day advising strongly to treat that reference as "not written". Let me see if my google-fu can find it...

Ah right here we are, Skip Williams wrote that:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a

quoting for your convenience:

The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside.

That's really all there's to say about it. Rubbing your hands with an evil chuckle and shafting your players when they use commonplace lowlevel gear and magic does not improve a game.

Well, that's good enough for me.

Makes me wonder something, though... why would WotC put that bit in the spell description in the first place. Oh, wait it's WotC! Nevermind.

[Tenebris]

I've always wondered... What if someone cast a rope trick within a rope trick? The first spell will obviously end earlier. As well as the space for creatures in the second rope trick to be dropped.

[nedz]

I've always wondered... What if someone cast a rope trick within a rope trick? The first spell will obviously end earlier. As well as the space for creatures in the second rope trick to be dropped.

They end up outside the multiverse, hence the warning :smallbiggrin:

[Forum Explorer]

The tatical thing seems to be the best solution. I prefer to just not have simple dungeon crawls, or if I do its to get something and they are either racing against time or competitors or something. So rope trick tends to get used as a safer resting place at the end of a long day of work.

[ericgrau]

Found some FAQ to confuse the matter further. It says putting an item based extradimensional space in another is the same as putting a bag of holding into a portable hole as doing so likewise strains the cosmos. Then it says non-item based extra-dimensional spaces are totally fine, including rope trick, making the comment at the bottom totally irrelevant.

Maybe Skip disagreed with the other two authors when writing the spell section or maybe it's a holdover from 2e, when they had more specific results for every combination of extra-dimensional item. So they didn't want a giant table of results but wanted to note some hazard and move on to the next spell. Maybe they didn't define it more clearly until the Manual of the Planes. Then later Skip says "Uh, just ignore that part." Your two most likely options are then rift to astral plane and editing mistake, with the 2nd being more likely. But then players can't put bags of holding into bags of holding either, because those are items not spells.

EDIT: Skip Williams wrote the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnDFAQ11272001.pdf) too. The other authors say zippo on the matter. This just gets worse and worse :smalltongue:. Uh just pick your preference there, with "nothing" or "rift to astral plane" as possible starting points.

[Firechanter]

Also note that in the linked article, Skip says that you _can_ put a Bag of Holding into a Bag of Holding.

[ericgrau]

So Skip contradicts himself on the matter. Based on my google search it wouldn't be the first rule he's done that on. Though when acting as Sage or writing the FAQ one would hope he has help or at least is more careful. There have been multiple corrections to these.

So... ya, let's just say it's up to the DM. Anywhere from ignore it to bust out the 2e extradimensional space tables. Another possible option besides banning, or stick to smarter monster spawn campers.

[BallsInABowl]

Everyone worries about the bag-of-holding and such with Rope Trick.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that everything falls out when it ends. Nothing in the rules suggests any ability to climb DOWN the rope OUT of the hole - so unless Dismissed, you're stuck in there for the duration. The window is still there. If there's a bunch of gobbo's dead in the dungeon, someone's going to be searching/tracking/sniffing you out. It shouldn't be too hard to find out where your trail ends, unless you're actively obscuring it.

Now, where did whoever killed my minions go? Get me a caster, any caster will do... Detect magic, presence - check, school - check, strength of aura - check.
You there, caster-dude, are you level 3? You are? Great! See Invisibility, now. Aha! I'll bet there's a Rope Trick here. Hey you guys, post about 30 people here, put the tarbean tea on - no sleeping now! Don't know when, but some Good guys are going to fall on the ground, prone, right about there.

[Firechanter]

You MUST be kidding!
Of COURSE they can climb out the same way they have climbed in. The rules also don't mention trousers anywhere and you probably still presume everybody to be decently clothed. oÔ

{Scrubbed}

That said, you're right, a smarter dungeon populace might go looking for the intruders (i.e. the PCs) and also use magical means. That's why it would be stupid for the adventures to set up camp in the last room they cleared. If they are worth their salt, they will use the rope trick in some random room or area where the dungeon keepers might not look so soon. Also, I think there are abjurations against the cheap detection spells, though currently I'm too tired to look them up.

{Scrubbed}

[VirOath]

I don't see what would be wrong with Rope Trick. It's a handy "Save Game" feature that was put in there for exactly this purpose - say, for resting up in a dungeon without having to worry about Wandering Monsters.

Normally, this spell allows a full night's rest only at 8th level, however a caster with Extend Spell can make it work at level 4. It beats having to traipse all the way up the dungeon and back to the inn, then into the dungeon and down again.

If you want the more "grim and gritty" exploration experience, you will have to ban a lot more spells than that. Highlevel parties can teleport wherever they need to go. Find the Path renders dungeons as such and mazes in general largely obsolete. Just to name a few.

I see it like this: if you don't want your PCs to use Rope Trick, you probably want to send bad things their way during resting period. If you interrupt a caster's rest sufficiently, they can't replenish their spells. Without spells they are useless. Players don't like feeling useless, so they won't enjoy your game a lot.
When a party realizes they are robbed of their magic support, they will likely retreat to a safe place anyway, so all you are doing with banning Rope Trick is waste everybody's game time. If you make them continue, see above regarding useless players not enjoying themselves.

The problem with the Rope Trick is that it promotes the 15 minute work day for adventuring parties. It means that they can all go nova and burn all of their one shot abilities at level 4, loot and climb into a rope trick for a rest, then be at 100% for the next fight. It means there is no risk for encounters because if a fight is balanced around the idea of only eating a portion of their daily resources and they go all out, plowing through it and using everything at their disposal, then they just cumbstomp the fight. The normal penalty would be not having those options for the next fight, but Rope Trick makes the next fight happen the next day when everyone is at full.

There are ways around the 15 minute work day, but those are more as put RP elements. From a mechanical standpoint, the only answer is to up the challenges of the fights to the point that it will take all of their resources to take it down, at which point you are playing an excessively high lethality game.

And it completely breaks the idea of staying power, which was already broken but not as bad. Having to only face one encounter a day tips the scales even further to classes with powerful but limited resources. The fighter was attempted to be balanced around the idea he could swing his sword all day, while spells were one shot wonders each day. Not exactly true, but by setting out with one spell you remove half of the dynamic entirely.

[One Tin Soldier]

In response to the actual question in the OP...
At no point in the spell description does it say that the spell is dependant on the rope. So I would say that it would not cause the spell to end or anything, but if you want to get out you have to fall. Then to cast it again, you would need a new rope. :smallwink:

[Firechanter]

Yeah you have a point there. Personally, as a player I take it as a matter of pride to rest as little as possible, and it pisses me off every time when other players want to rest after almost every single fight because they spam out their kewl powerz all in one go.
That's why I do like to have some time pressure in the game, as has been suggested by a previous poster. Not so much that you have to crawl on your gums most of the time, but enough to prevent a 9-to-9:15 workday.
Also, when playing a caster, I prefer long-time buffs over short-time and direct damage spells, for the same reason, to be active as long as possible between rests.

[VirOath]

Once the 15 minute work day came about, future published material came out to try and combat that mindset. Reserve feats, many of the devotion feats and different source books like MoI, ToM and ToB, as well as the Completes, brought in classes that were designed away from the nova abilities.

Sadly it's about the players more than anything else.

And back to the OP, Extra-dimensional spell meta magic can fire into a rope trick if it really becomes a problem. The reality is not many players abuse rope trick and find the 15 minute work day boring instead.

[Jastermereel]

My players aren't the type to try and overuse (or, for that matter, to use it at all yet) but if they did and it were semi-obvious where they'd done it, you can bet I'd set a campfire below it. Magical effects may end where the space begins, but non-magical smoke? Yeah, they'll either asphyxiate or drop out into an ambush.

[VirOath]

My players aren't the type to try and overuse (or, for that matter, to use it at all yet) but if they did and it were semi-obvious where they'd done it, you can bet I'd set a campfire below it. Magical effects may end where the space begins, but non-magical smoke? Yeah, they'll either asphyxiate or drop out into an ambush.

Semi-obvious, how? Apart from tracking, there isn't a way for them to be found out, and even that would just be "Their tracks end here.". The spell doesn't leave a hole or a rope hanging out, and is a sealed bubble of extra-dimensional space. So you wouldn't be getting fire or smoke moving up into the rope trick because they are no longer on the same plane.

Might help to read the spell to understand what the problem is, before you start chalking up solutions.

[Jsuelieta]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this 15 minute work day thing, but barring having no divine caster at all, isn't that rather impossible? If memory serves, divine casters pick a time of day to prepare their spells and they can only do it during that period of time (or at earliest convenience, if that timeframe is missed). Now, I dunno how others do it, but if I'm adventuring in a dungeon where I have to resort to something like Rope Trick, I'm probably not doing it without my good friend the walking medicine cabinet. Generally I pick midnight for most of my characters due to divine casters not actually needing that eight hours rest, just that one time of day, that way I can be keeping watch at the same time. Seems like it would get kind of monotonous spending 23 hours 45 minutes waiting for the healer to get his/her spells back.

Also, yeah, destroy the rope and you just fall out when the spell ends. Probably onto something painful if something was fast enough to see the rope and mess with it before it was pulled in.

[snikrept]

Type of group that abuses the rope trick to rest immediately after every fight is also the type of group that will just run away and camp outside the dungeon or in another safe place after every fight, if given the option.

Solution is not to ban rope trick and such, but rather to impose plot related penalties for delay, as mentioned above. When you have only 36 hours to find the Orb of Bob or the whole county becomes a smoking crater, you'd better not spend 8 of them snoozing inside an extradimensional pocket. Likewise if you only have 6 months until the BBEG puts his plan in motion at the conjunction of the moons, you'd best not spend four of those months asleep.

[Aldizog]

The idea that without Rope Trick PCs would just run away back to town and rest there is premised on the PCs being able to get out of the dungeon. That's not always the case. I can envision a number of dramatic scenes where the PCs are not assured of a clear exit (they had to flee deeper into the dungeon, for example, or the monsters sent reinforcements to cut off their escape route). Without Rope Trick, PCs would have to ration their spells much more carefully.

Rope Trick had nowhere near this duration in 2E; you had to be much higher-level to be assured of a safe resting spot to refresh spells. In fact, it was a 7th-level spell, the same as Teleport Without Error (remember that plain old Teleport could kill you instantly). In other words, being able to rest safely for the night was considered powerful magic.

[Firechanter]

From level 9 onward, the party can Teleport out of the dungeon anyway. Granted, it costs a 5th-level spell slot, which are still rare in the mid levels. But if the players feel they can't get decent rest inside the dungeon they _will_ use Teleport. This of course reduces their active resources, thus again shortening their active periods, leading to more resting. If you contrive a reason to keep them from teleporting, you've arrived at the level of about 90% of Star Trek episodes ("We can't use the Transporter because [treknobabble]").

Also it's true that Divine casters get their spells 1/day, so these have to watch their resources more carefully.

Okay, _if_ a party abused the refresh mechanism by means of a 9:05 wizard, I guess as a DM I would also work against their ability to do so. But if they use their powers responsibly, I see no reason to deny them their safe refuge once per day.

[Aharon]

@Aldizog
You are wrong. Rope Trick was 2nd level in 2nd edition, too. Its duration was a third of it's current duration, though (2 turns/level), so you needed to spend more spell slots for a safe nights rest.

[Aldizog]

From level 9 onward, the party can Teleport out of the dungeon anyway. Granted, it costs a 5th-level spell slot, which are still rare in the mid levels.
Might have to be 12th depending on party size and composition (more than 4 PCs; animal companions present; arcane caster is a sorc; various other things). Most campaigns IME tend to end by about 12th, and for the more-commonly-played levels of 4-8, having Rope Trick or not makes a really big difference.


@Aldizog
You are wrong. Rope Trick was 2nd level in 2nd edition, too. Its duration was a third of it's current duration, though (2 turns/level), so you needed to spend more spell slots for a safe nights rest.
My apologies. I meant that the "safe resting spell" was 7th level. That is, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Rope Trick was incapable of providing a night's rest, as it lasted such a short time; even at 10th level, 20 turns is only 3 hours and change. Leomund's Tiny Hut did not prevent entrance. Leomund's Secure Shelter resisted entrance but did not absolutely prevent it.

[Psyren]

Here we go again...

Quoting myself ftw.

I will do as I have always done in these threads and ask for a D&D definition of the word "Hazardous." No linking the dictionary, please.

[Aharon]

@Aldizog
Yes, but if you devote 2 2nd level and 2 4th level slots to it, you can make it, with one break. At level 8, you use Extension I (4th grade) to get Rope tricks with 50% increased duration. That's 4 hours each. Your DM would have to be a jackass if he ruled that this one interruption would be enough for it not to be a restful night of sleep. Especially as it indeed takes considerably more ressources than in 3rd ed - just not as many as you claimed.

[Aldizog]

@Aldizog
Yes, but if you devote 2 2nd level and 2 4th level slots to it, you can make it, with one break. At level 8, you use Extension I (4th grade) to get Rope tricks with 50% increased duration. That's 4 hours each. Your DM would have to be a jackass if he ruled that this one interruption would be enough for it not to be a restful night of sleep. Especially as it indeed takes considerably more ressources than in 3rd ed - just not as many as you claimed.
I had always thought that any interruption where you had to cast a spell counted as a "significant" interruption, but I may have had more experience with RBDMs. And I had never known any PCs to actually use Extension, though I agree that your solution could theoretically work if the interruption was allowed.

[BallsInABowl]

You MUST be kidding!
Of COURSE they can climb out the same way they have climbed in. The rules also don't mention trousers anywhere and you probably still presume everybody to be decently clothed. oÔ

{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

That said, you're right, a smarter dungeon populace might go looking for the intruders (i.e. the PCs) and also use magical means. That's why it would be stupid for the adventures to set up camp in the last room they cleared. If they are worth their salt, they will use the rope trick in some random room or area where the dungeon keepers might not look so soon. Also, I think there are abjurations against the cheap detection spells, though currently I'm too tired to look them up.

{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

I'd say that "nothing says you can climb out" is less of a stretch than "nothing bad happens, even though it specifies it's hazardous to do so, when you 'create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one', because although it specifies it's hazardous, it doesn't specify what the hazard specifically is, even though that hazard is explicitely specified specifically in other locations in the rules".