3.5 Help: Souls or XP or Both

[Sinpoder]

Ok there is what is going on. I am going to DM a game where all my players are Devils in the Nine Hells, but they are unique in the way that they will not start as mindless wretchs known as Lemures. They will raise from the Maggot Pit or whatever as humans looking Devils. They will be spotted by the guys ( I think chain Devils run that kind of thing) and then sent to The King of Hell for...... examination... but they will survive with there bodies and souls intake... if they are not stupid. Anyway I have been reading the Fiend Codex II like a christan priest reads the bible, and I know for a fact that is generally takes a imp a total of nine souls, that he personally turned, to be promoted to..... crap I forgot.......

But my problem is that once my characters reach the "right" to use the Pacts, then how many souls do you need to rank up.... or how much xp do you need or do you need both....

I ask because I am sure that there is a guy in hell that can get up very high buy soul alone, while weak as hell while someone that has the power of a pit fiend is left at his low ass status. The problem is the good leaders have both so should I make that a requirement.... Then that brings up a point for me, how is it that the leaders of Hell, ( Dukes, Lords, ect. ) spend all there time in hell and still become more powerful.... I know they get there powers from the divine power of souls but does that translate into XP........ and if so at what ratio....

I would love for a base amount for each rank up.... like X amount of Souls and Xp for X rank.... I would love any and all help....

[Eldan]

You seem to have a mistake somewhere in there... Imps aren't Baatezu and not part of the hierarchy.

In any case,I'd treat souls like items. Hand them out as quest rewards. And as far as I know, I've never really seen a souls=ranks or souls=XP table. Promotion is usually done by "your superior thinks you've done well for the last few centuries".

Generally, at least the higher ranks of fiends get more powerful by making people believe that they are powerful. It works that way pretty much everywhere on the planes.

[Havelock]

Imps are Baatezu and part of the hierarchy.

What you have done here is to somehow make the PC's fastrolled into unique devils. Promotion is thus irrellevant. That's the smallest breach of official canon you can make.

[Eldan]

Imps are Baatezu and part of the hierarchy.
.

No, they aren't. Even in 3.5, they don't have devil traits. They aren't immune to fire, they don't have acid and cold resistance, they don't have telepathy.

[Warlawk]

Then that brings up a point for me, how is it that the leaders of Hell, ( Dukes, Lords, ect. ) spend all there time in hell and still become more powerful.... I know they get there powers from the divine power of souls but does that translate into XP........ and if so at what ratio....

I would love for a base amount for each rank up.... like X amount of Souls and Xp for X rank.... I would love any and all help....

There is no table or rules for this. You want to do it, make it up. That's really the only concrete answer you're going to get.

Now, as for how the dukes of hell get more powerful? Think of Hell like Amway. It's one giant pyramid scheme. The dukes are the top of their particular pyramid. They get a cut of the souls/power that comes in through everyone underneath them. The more people you recruit under you, the more power you have flowing through you without you having to take direct action to get it. I think it could be a lot of fun for a game like that to play up the officers of hell as pyramid scheme salesmen and timeshare salesmen kinda figures right down to the fake diamond cuff links.

[Kaww]

Imps are devils. Both in MM1 categorization and fluff. The first sentence describing them in mm1 says that Imps are devils. It is however true that they lack the subtype and immunities. But I think that was to actually make them somewhere near CR 2...

[Sinpoder]

Yes just look at the chart in Fiend Folio II and you will see Imp as number 5 above Bearded Devils but below Steel Devils.

And I know there is not a table for it, I am asking the general people what would be a good..... estimate of how many souls are needed to rank up/how much XP is needed.

And Souls being like items.... the problem I have with that is that does not help the situation, because all souls are destoried ( Ripped of all humanity they once had) and due to that souls would be taken away from them to be processed and stripped.

[VirOath]

One could argue that a soul is the combined experiences of a person, the essence of EXP in D&D in the first place, the broadening of your own character.

But I remember reading somewhere that for the purposes of creating magic items some magical regents can be used in place of your own EXP for evil characters. Blood of the innocent, about a full body's worth, was 3 exp, their captured soul was 5. So you'd get about 8 exp per child slain in ritual sacrifice to make an item, so about 3 to make a +1 weapon if my memory serves me.

Using that scale means thousands upon thousands of souls are needed for PCs. But it would turn it into an interesting commodity, a method of gaining power as well as a form of currency and barter. Drawing upon the power of the lives of others to bolster your own, or to exchange that for magical power and items.

Though it will turn the normal method of measuring wealth and power, and giving that out, on it's head. And a human being is worth about 40 gold coins by this model.

The whole Rank/Level thing should be tied together. As they advance in level, they get an increase in ranks.

[Sinpoder]

True but my plan is too try and figure out a way too keep this from becoming a souly hack and slash or a souly a trying to corrupt as many people as possible...... but I love the idea and I might use it...... of course I might be making this alot more complicated then it needs to be.... because now I am thinking about putting in a repulation system....... for each Lord of Hell and that alone will take a while....

[VirOath]

Well, by making souls a tangible part of the world, never really gone, you open up another part of what can be stolen or targeted. Stealing that hellforged weapon could gain you up to X souls, or robbing the souls from a more powerful demon to weaken his power base.

Whether or not you want the souls to be on a person, or in a person, or just in a secure location to be tapped into, is your call. But, I see it as adding another dynamic beyond HP and Levels for power. Being able to steal, or have your own source of EXP at risk, could add another level of depth and take it a step closer to Shadowrun rather than a Dungeon Crawl.

[Sinpoder]

Very true....... Well the souls that end up in Hell are physical beings, kinda, and the guys doing the job directing the souls to there owners, by a mark on there skins....... So in reality I could give my players the opion of hijacking a boat and sending it to there area or even getting there own shipment highjacked...... and the guys use some magic item or something to change my players mark into theirs or visversa....... I think I could make that work.... it would put alot more pressure on the characters to make sure there exp is going where it should be

[VirOath]

And it will artificially control their own EXP gained from souls. If they gain too much power too fast without a support base, they become a target for theft themselves.

[Dvandemon]

@^:That sounds like you could build an entirely new gains system from that

[Sinpoder]

Hmmmmm That is how I am going to do it...... but now here is the next issue, how much exp. do they get per soul, or better yet how much should they get per CR...... I get that a 1st level commoner ( the average non-adventure joe ) is worth about.... 5 exp without drinking from the river Styxs ( Drinking it goes down to 2.5 exp ) do to the simple fact that it is spilt between everyone over him. Which at the start will be alot of people but once they get up in the ranks there share of the exp will become more then it was but not as much as the Lord of Hell...... but the question is how much exp do i give them per soul and at what rank......

I was thinking 6th-9th is about 25 exp per 1st level soul, 10-15 is 50 and 16th ( Pit fiend) is 75 exp.....

That way they still have to fight from 1st to 6th rank but they can still fight from there one if they choose.......

[No brains]

I know that somewhere in BVD there are rules pertaining to the use of souls instead of gp or xp when making magic itmes! But I think the exchenge is really low. Like 1xp per soul.:smallfrown:

[Sinpoder]

Yes, I am aware of that fact and it is something that I am not going to put my characters through....... god just getting to first level would suck!

[No brains]

They're starting below first level? Unless they're reaping the souls of ants, I think xp might be the faster avenue.

Forgive the joke, I don't know much about devil societal stuff. One thing you CAN do is to treat Hell as an affiliation from PHB2 and have a soul harvested (depending on whose soul it may be) could boost thier rank with the affiliation.

[Sinpoder]

Yes sorry I meant Second level and yes that is true..... I will look into a PHB2 and I will see if it is better then using a Complete Champion's rep system for my plans.....

[Sinpoder]

Well that is more or less my exact plans but I am doing it with every layer of Hell or every Lord because not everyone is able to make everyone happy.

[Dvandemon]

OR you could give XP from outside sources, souls are just an option as currency for XP, in which case it becomes an exchange system

[Sinpoder]

True....... and they would be worth a X amount of gold or something...... but how would that work for higher level souls......

[mobdrazhar]

why not just use souls as currency. younger souls are worth coppers, teenage souls are silver, etc.

of course this would be varying depending on what you feel most appropriate.

it would also mean that most of thier market interractions wouldn't be in the normal stores but it would be in dark alleyways and in the markets of Hell when they return from missions

[Sinpoder]

True but I like the lore that says most souls are haverested for divine power used to fuel the nine Hells......

[Dvandemon]

Souls are the apex resource of the Nine Hells, they can be used for just about anything

[Sinpoder]

That is extremely true! Currency, XP, XP for Magic Items you name it a soul can be used for it but the problem is due to that most devils do not gain nearly any benefit from being the guy to turn a soul Lawful Evil, they get the credit for it but the souls are sent right to the extracting place for there divine power. But other then the credit they don't get a whole lot, but being the top soul taker for a long time could give some good things......

[Fouredged Sword]

I would say that if a soul is worth 5 exp, then it is worth 125 gp. I would, to make the game more fun, make souls have varing value, based on HD, class level, or CR of the target.

[Telonius]

I would say that if a soul is worth 5 exp, then it is worth 125 gp. I would, to make the game more fun, make souls have varing value, based on HD, class level, or CR of the target.

"I just sold my soul to a devil. Got 130gp for it though, so I think I came out ahead on the deal." :smallbiggrin:

[Sinpoder]

I like that.... a first level commoner is worth 5xp and 125 gold..... and it is timed by 2 for every CR/class Level or what ever..... that could work just fine....

[Fouredged Sword]

That is enough gold for a commoner to live comforably for many years, He can live without working for 12500 days. That is 35 years or so. With an average lifespan of 60ish years and tradeing your soul at 25 means you likely never have to work again.

[Telonius]

That is enough gold for a commoner to live comforably for many years, He can live without working for 12500 days. That is 35 years or so. With an average lifespan of 60ish years and tradeing your soul at 25 means you likely never have to work again.

I think the math is off a bit there - a Poor meal is 1 sp, not 1 cp. He only has about three and a half years worth of food.

[Dvandemon]

Well then it's time to start a family :smallamused:

[Sinpoder]

Hey I am sure my characters will not mind that at all!

[Fouredged Sword]

I was under the notion that unskilled labor earned 1cp a day. It must be posible to survive off that or you woulden't have any ditch diggers in the world. Still, if it's not enough to live off itself, it's enough to buy a farm somewhere not to dangerous, and a bunch of wartrained housecats to guard you from wandering goblins.

[Telonius]

I was under the notion that unskilled labor earned 1cp a day. It must be posible to survive off that or you woulden't have any ditch diggers in the world. Still, if it's not enough to live off itself, it's enough to buy a farm somewhere not to dangerous, and a bunch of wartrained housecats to guard you from wandering goblins.

An untrained hireling costs 1sp per day - just enough for them to eat a poor meal. Once they graduate to "trained" it's 3sp per day.