How to defend against optimized charge?

[Firechanter]

Some players relish in optimizing charger builds that can dish out over 1000 damage in the first round. Question is, what do you do if you (as PC) have to fight _against_ such a brute?

Let's say you have to fight a bunch of highlevel Orcs. You don't know it, but you have to expect one of them might have pulled all the registers: Frenzied Berserker, Pounce, Shock Trooper, the works. He is stronger than a Tarrasque and can dish out 5 attacks on a charge. In short, if you gets in range he'd pummel you into the middle of next century. He also a lot of HP of course.

If you know beforehand _who_ it is, and can act before he gets near you, of course your casters will send some Will saves his way which will hopefully suffice.
I guess you can also ready an action to simply evade a charge, if you have the room or the gear (Dimension Stride boots or somesuch).

Normally I'd take a Reach weapon and try to trip a charger so he kisses the gravel before he can attack, but if you consider a potential Strength score over 50 when you only have 30 kinda rules that out.

Any other tricks that help against a charger when you really, definitely, don't want to risk getting hit for 800 damage? Particularly if there are like 10 charging attackers at a time, and you don't know which is the heavy hitter?

[gbprime]

I like having someone in the group (could even be a cohort) ready an action to use his Ring of the Forcewall against a charging opponent. For only 5100gp, this ring gives you the awesome lulz of stopping a charging opponent and getting to watch them slam headfirst into an invisible wall.

It's got other great uses as well, but the invisible wall face plant is the funniest.

[Gnaeus]

Battlefield control can be done with Trip, or with Stand Still. Stand Still is a reflex save, not a str check. Should work.

Be invisible.

Get them to them charge an illusion of you.

Abrupt Jaunt.

Blockers. Skeletons/zombies, constructs, villagers, animals, whatever.

Adventure via astral projection.

As Hyfigh says, this question is unanswerable without more information. Levels. Party makeup. Books.

[Hyfigh]

It all depends on what you are.

Magic helps because they can use miss chances to start negating the ability to actually hit you. Stuff like Mirror Image, Blur/displacement, Blink, etc.

Most chargers don't have great saves and, as such, can be hit with debilitating spells (bestow curse, slow, blind effects, solid fog, etc.).

The feat Elusive Target would be another great choice. It's one of those niche feats that allows the user to negate power attack from the attacker. This doesn't completely stop the attacker, but greatly reduces his damage.

There are also feats and class features that allow you to side step charges.

A combination of these things would be best.

Edit: Almost forgot line-of-sight eliminators. Walls are wonderful. Even a Warlock with Wall of Gloom can put a real hinderence on a charger (anyone that needs line of sight, really). Even Silent Image walls can help with this issue.

[Caliphbubba]

Items and effects that give miss chances seem to be a valid defense.

[DEMON]

Level 1 Setting Sun Maneuver (Counter) - Counter Charge (Tome of Battle).
Available to Swordsage, or any other 2nd level character thanks to the Martial Study feat.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) :smalltongue:

[blackjack217]

I like having someone in the group (could even be a cohort) ready an action to use his Ring of the Forcewall against a charging opponent. For only 5100gp, this ring gives you the awesome lulz of stopping a charging opponent and getting to watch them slam headfirst into an invisible wall.

It's got other great uses as well, but the invisible wall face plant is the funniest.

No flying dragon faceplant is the funniest. The look of horror on the DM makes me feel warm and fuzzy. If you are the wizard being polymorphed into the familiar is a good defense. If you want a build I would go with a cleric. Stack miss chances and other defenses and ready a maximized end to strife. 600 untyped elemental damage in one standard action, more metamagic shenanigans are possible of course. You might want to prepare yourself for several minuets of rules debate though.

[Keld Denar]

Robilar's Gambit + Elusive Target

Every time he swings at you, you get an AoO. Instead of taking the AoO, you can get a 5' step. Since a charge ends at the first space your foe can reach you, a simple 5' step will get you out of harms way in a heart beat.

[arguskos]

Well, depending on your reading of the Cometary Collision feat, you can shut them down completely with it. It lets you reactively charge into a charging opponent, which is glorious because it says "your foe loses the benefits of charging (but not the penalties)". If you read that as negating everything they get from charging (a fair reading IMO), they then suddenly are completely shut off. No Pounce (benefit), not Shock Trooper (applies on the charge only), nothin'. They do still get to attack you, but likely, it's not gonna be anywhere near as strong an attack.

If your DM instead rules that all they lose is the +2 to attacks, the feat is trash. I'd clear this one with the DM.

[Curmudgeon]

Charge has a bunch of requirements, so if you can foil even one of them you're good.

You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
If someone is too close they can't charge. (They'll be able to make a full attack, but won't get any charge enhancements their optimization has lined up.)

Any obstacle will thwart a charge. You can step to interpose a tree or rock, or even a patch of muddy ground, between you and the charger.

You can summon a creature to provide soft cover for you and make the charger waste their effort on a throwaway opponent.

Not being seen is probably the easiest option. Invisibility or an adequate Hide frustrates chargers quite handily.

[NichG]

Well, you could always use anti-rocket-tag defenses like Death Pact, Contingent Dim Door, Indomitability, Abrubt Jaunt, Wings of Cover, Timeless Body, ... If their big thing is the first round of damage, it'll give you a fighting chance at least. Spells like Empyreal Ecstasy will cut the damage by half, which might make it survivable when layered with other tricks. If its an extremely high-op game, then Delay Death, Starmantle, and other such damage/attack immunity shenanigans might be reasonable. If they're wielding a metal weapon, Greater Ironguard is amusing.

[FMArthur]

Unprepared chargers really do fall flat pretty quickly when you show them just how restrictive their line-of-effect needs to be. Airborne chargers and people with the Nimble Charge skill trick are a little tougher to dissuade by mere positioning.

[Quietus]

Get a reach weapon, combat reflexes, and Hold the Line (CW). Pair up with Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. Finish off with Robilar's Gambit to produce a "standard" AoO based build.

They charge, you get an AoO for them charging. Activate Dodge and Robilar's Gambit (you need to have an action for these, which an AoO grants). Elusive Target negates all that power attack bonus damage, which is the real threat, not merely the strength. It'll hurt a lot less, and every swing they take, you get to take one back. Works best with a mix of Fighter (for the feats, this one's pretty hungry) and Shadow Hand, for a dex-based build.

If you get to go first (high dex, remember!), then you can ready an attack vs. charges - using a longspear or ranseur means double damage on that attack.

For extra bonus rules lawyering, point out that Elusive Target specifically calls out that they take "Their normal penalty on attack rolls", despite losing the Power Attack bonus. Insist that this means they either can't take the penalty off their AC, or that they take penalties to both.

[Firechanter]

Haha, I love the mental image of a berserker smacking full force into an invisible wall. XD Awesome.

Thanks for all the fast input!

What are we? Well, let's say for this purpose, a non-caster, generalist melee character. Also, let's say we don't want to dedicate more than a single feat towards charge-denial.
The party as a whole would include the usual niches: a Tank, a Bruiser, a Wizard (more batman than blaster), a Cleric, a Rogue-type.

Fly is an obvious choice, but ofc the enemy may have Fly as well.

Anything that relies on an opposed Strength check is out, because that charger twink is going to have much higher Str than us.
I'd also put Counter Charge in that area; though you can elect to oppose your Dex checks, that's still not a very surefire way due to the randomness of D20 ability checks.

Elusive Target looks good as such, the problem is that it's not one but three feats, Dodge and Mobility are horrible choices.

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?

Stand Still also might be an option, will look into it.

[Keld Denar]

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?

Yes, as I said earlier, a single 5' step will foil the whole charge. Charging specifically states that you have to move to the first square you can reach your foe. Your movement ends there. So, they charge, get to the square, and swing. When they swing, they provoke, per Robilar's Gambit. When they provoke, you take your 5' step and gtfo 5' back. Since you were just barely in their maximum reach, you are now just out of their maximum reach. Baring some shanananananananananananananigans like the bracers that give you +5' reach as a swift action, you are now safe.

[Curmudgeon]

Question: Evasive Reflexes from ToB has no feat prereqs and allows you to make a 5' step instead of an AoO. Would a single 5' step be sufficient to avoid a charge attack, or could the chargerer just do his attack diagonally?
If the charger can still reach you from any position on their straight line path, the fact that you've moved 5' won't matter: you'll still get hit. So that counter only works when the charger is forced to make their straight line approach off to one side of you for some reason, and you could get out of their reach by moving 5' in the other direction. Whether the feat helps you at all is highly situational, so that generally means you'd be better off instead choosing another feat you can use more reliably.

[Yukitsu]

Robilar's Gambit + Elusive Target

Every time he swings at you, you get an AoO. Instead of taking the AoO, you can get a 5' step. Since a charge ends at the first space your foe can reach you, a simple 5' step will get you out of harms way in a heart beat.

Similar to this, I just ready actions to take a 5 foot step back when I'm in the open vs. cav. or other suspected chargers.

Edit: Saying "batta swing!" whenever you do this is recommended.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, as I said earlier, a single 5' step will foil the whole charge. Charging specifically states that you have to move to the first square you can reach your foe. Your movement ends there. So, they charge, get to the square, and swing. When they swing, they provoke, per Robilar's Gambit.
That's all legal. But Robilar's Gambit gambit triggers your AoO (which Elusive Target converts to a 5' step) after they finish their charge attack.
Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.
So all you've done is taken a 5' step out of their reach after their full pounce attack has thrashed you.

When they provoke, you take your 5' step and gtfo 5' back.
Nope. Unlike most AoOs, the one from Robilar's Gambit doesn't happen at the time of provocation.

Since you were just barely in their maximum reach, you are now just out of their maximum reach. Baring some shanananananananananananananigans like the bracers that give you +5' reach as a swift action, you are now safe.
You've not safe, and you might already be dead. :smalltongue:

[Ernir]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?

More generally, battlefield control. The charge mechanic is, as Curmudgeon pointed out, very fragile. Almost any Conjuration (creation) spell has the potential to become a wrench in its works.

[Firechanter]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.

Another Question:
Think setting a weapon against a charge. Can that be combined with ToB maneuvers like, ideally, Diamond Nightmare Blade? And if so, are the multipliers (x4 and x2) stacked or multiplied, i.e. x5 or x8? With a x8 multiplier, you could inflict around 500 damage (against a Shock Trooper) even if the weapon is a cheap spear with just an ad-hoc GMW buff on it. (If you don't even have time to GMW it, the output would be reduced to around 300; still that might be enough to one-shot the charger.

[FMArthur]

There's also Cometary Collision, which is an awesomely-named feat that merely lets you ready an action to interrupt an enemy's charge at you or your allies at any point on the charge with your own charge. They can still complete their charge and can even change their target to you when you're done, so you better trip, grapple or kill them. Since charging is a full-round action, they can't even do anything else on their turn if you prevent them from finishing their charge this way, not even attack you from prone.

[Quietus]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.

Another Question:
Think setting a weapon against a charge. Can that be combined with ToB maneuvers like, ideally, Diamond Nightmare Blade? And if so, are the multipliers (x4 and x2) stacked or multiplied, i.e. x5 or x8? With a x8 multiplier, you could inflict around 500 damage (against a Shock Trooper) even if the weapon is a cheap spear with just an ad-hoc GMW buff on it. (If you don't even have time to GMW it, the output would be reduced to around 300; still that might be enough to one-shot the charger.

It'd be x5, because of D&D math, but unfortunately readying a spear against a charge is a separate standard action than readying to Diamond Nightmare Blade. Readied vs. charge can't be combined with a maneuver. A boost, on the other hand..

On 5' steps and AoO's : Hold the Line (prereq : combat reflexes) makes them provoke when they enter a square you threaten while charging, so it triggers before they attack. Combined with Elusive Target, this would let you 5' step out of the way. And technically, by a strict RAW reading, a charger must attack something directly in a line from where they start; 5' stepping off to the side, or back and to the side, would break this line, and break the charge. However, I know that not one of the DMs I've played under would rule that way.

::Edit:: Not Elusive Target. That other dodge one.

[The Glyphstone]

So Robiliar's gambit won't work, but any Reach weapon will, or any weapon at all and the Hold The Line feat.

[FMArthur]

So Robiliar's gambit won't work, but any Reach weapon will, or any weapon at all and the Hold The Line feat.

Can't they charge you with their own reach weapon?

[Cyrion]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?

More generally, battlefield control. The charge mechanic is, as Curmudgeon pointed out, very fragile. Almost any Conjuration (creation) spell has the potential to become a wrench in its works.

You may be thinking about Blockade from Complete Scoundrel- it conjures a 5' block of wood. However, it's a swift action, not an immediate action.

[Ganurath]

Isn't there a spell somewhere that conjures a 5' box or something as an immediate action?Blockade, Complete... Scoundrel, I believe. If not, then Complete Adventurer. Either way, though, not the best option of a melee generalist.

My recommendation is Martial Study for either Counter Charge, or Mighty Throw if you can consistently get the initiative to ready an action. Strength checks may be nightmarish here, but opposed Dexterity puts the ball in your court. Or, a level dip in Swordsage to pick up all sorts of options. Nothing says "screw uberchargers" like Setting Sun Style.

[Curmudgeon]

It looks like there's a bit of a disagreement about whether or not a 5' step can foil a charge.

Some say, the charger has to stop at the point originally designated, meaning he'll cleave mightly into the empty ground if you have moved out.
Others say the charger can continue his charge in the same line up to his maximum movement, so a 5' step would not get you out of harm's way.

Can we first agree on what is actually the case here, seems rather crucial.
It depends on exactly what the situation is. Robilar's Gambit is clear; that 5' step can only happen after the charger's attack is finished. So that's useless.

A readied action to make a 5' step has different rules.
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. If your readied action interrupts the charge attack, then the charger hasn't yet attacked. If you step 5' then there are two possibilities:

You've made it impossible for the charger to reach you. You could step behind difficult terrain, exceed their maximum charge distance, or move far enough to the side of their straight line path to be unreachable.
You haven't become unreachable, and the charger continues their charge and hits you.
I think some of the confusion on this matter comes from people assuming the charge movement and charge attack are separate actions; they are not. A charge is a special full-round action, and continuing the charge action continues all of it, including extra movement as required. There's no "declaring" of the attack point when you start a charge; it's always the closest space from which you can attack ─ even if that spot changes during the charge.

[MightyPirate]

Ubercharger can't ubercharge you if you're in his grill. Charge 'em first. :smallcool:

That'd be my approach if I was playing a melee character geared towards this sort of thing. Other than that I like conjuration as said repeatedly before, maaaybe some evocation force stuff.

[TheCountAlucard]

Unseen Servant should do the trick. "Stand in front of me" is a viable tactic, and while it'll almost certainly be destroyed in one hit, the simple fact is that it'll break the charge by dint of being in the way, and the charger won't see it, and thus end up wasting his charge.

[Firechanter]

It'd be x5, because of D&D math, but unfortunately readying a spear against a charge is a separate standard action than readying to Diamond Nightmare Blade. Readied vs. charge can't be combined with a maneuver. A boost, on the other hand..

Blast, not what I wanted to hear. :p What if you have a Belt of Battle that you can milk for an extra Standard Action?

I have looked but haven't found a Boost that would help a lot here, at least none that would be open to the Warblade class.


However, I know that not one of the DMs I've played under would rule that way.

I think it would be very sensible to have a charge negated by the defender sidestepping. Just moving 5' backwards won't help much, agreed, but if it's to the side the attacker just can't bring his momentum on you. That's how I would rule it as DM.


::Edit:: Not Elusive Target. That other dodge one.

Evasive Reflexes? I keep mixing those up, too.
If you have a Reach weapon and the charger does not, or you have greater reach in general, you don't even need Hold the Line.

edit: Unseen Servant seems to be a cool cheap trick, too. ^^ Not as stylo as the force wall, but much cheaper (in terms of spell grade)

[Cyrion]

As long as nobody's behind you, a readied baleful transposition could be amusing, along with a flourished cloak and a shout of "Ole!"

[Curmudgeon]

And technically, by a strict RAW reading, a charger must attack something directly in a line from where they start; 5' stepping off to the side, or back and to the side, would break this line, and break the charge. However, I know that not one of the DMs I've played under would rule that way.
The DMs appear to have a better understanding of the rules than you do, because "directly toward the designated opponent" has a specific definition in the D&D rules (distinct from the rules of English). I've reformatted this quote to help.

Here’s what it means to have a clear path.

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

While "you must have a clear path toward the opponent", that doesn't stipulate a single specific path; you merely need line of sight and then "move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent". Charging directly to wherever that space is meets the rules definition of "directly toward the designated opponent". It's not (necessarily) your idea of "directly in a line" from the center of your square to the center of their square (though that might be an option).

[gbprime]

Haha, I love the mental image of a berserker smacking full force into an invisible wall. XD Awesome.

Totally.

Even better is the look on the DM's face as they try to figure out how much damage someone should take from galloping full on into an impenetrable barrier they didn't know was there. (You usually end up with some variation of falling damage based on how far they moved or could move.)

[VirOath]

Well, to charge you need to see the target before you charge. Since I'm going to assume he has some method of flight and other basic tactics, and even a method of reach, gather a cheap way to see inside a Darkness Spell, and just walk around being the center of a Darkness spell.

Have it permanent on a clasp or something and just cover it up when not needed. If he is prepared against counters to charging, defense against darkness will likely be near the bottom of that list.

[Gorilla2038]

I generally find 3 levels of knight to be my answer, but i understand that options not well liked. Still, its has one advantage no other one has-its impossible to take away without permanent level drain.

[Volos]

Easiest way to defend against a charger is to use a Tower Shield. He can't hit you if you have the cover from the Shield keeping your out of his line of sight. Then keep within 10 ft of him after that. Wasn't that fun?

[Curmudgeon]

Well, to charge you need to see the target before you charge. Since I'm going to assume he has some method of flight and other basic tactics, and even a method of reach, gather a cheap way to see inside a Darkness Spell, and just walk around being the center of a Darkness spell.
That's not going to do a lot. Darkness only grants ordinary concealment (= shadowy illumination, where a character can see dimly). Only total concealment keeps you from picking targets. The Darkness will give the charger a 20% miss chance on each of their pounce full attack swings, though, so it's not completely useless.

[Draz74]

Note that there's a cheap item, Steadfast Boots (MIC), which lets you "ready against a charge" any two-handed weapon without spending an action to do so. With spear-like weapons, this even includes their double damage feature if you hit with such an attack.

A double damage attack with a ranseur probably won't stop the Ubercharger who's coming for you, but it certainly helps a little bit, and it's easy to combine with some of the other options people have mentioned, such as Evasive Reflexes.

[VirOath]

Bah, I blame my group for that slip then. They have always treated Darkness as a wall of magical darkness, you cannot see inside unless you step inside. Not the way the PHB handles it.

But, the concealment would let you hide in it, which would work against a charger without cranked spot checks.

Also, combining the Stand Still feat with the Steadfast boots mentioned above, and for a little overkill Hold The Line. Two attacks against a charger, and if you have a good enough reach, you'll stop the charge cold. Almost a sure thing to hit as well, since the common charge tactic is to dump your AC for damage.

[Keld Denar]

I generally find 3 levels of knight to be my answer, but i understand that options not well liked. Still, its has one advantage no other one has-its impossible to take away without permanent level drain.

Bulwark of Defense doesn't stop charges. The difficult terrain clause only kicks in if you start your turn threatened by the Knight. If you charge him, its resolved normally. Thats one of the main reasons why Thicket of Blades > Bulwark of Defense.

[gbprime]

Note that there's a cheap item, Steadfast Boots (MIC), which lets you "ready against a charge" any two-handed weapon without spending an action to do so. With spear-like weapons, this even includes their double damage feature if you hit with such an attack.

If you're using this tactic, you can have fun with it if you have a Spell Storing weapon. Blindness, Glitterdust, Baleful Transposition, Gaseous Form, Power Word Fatigue... all useful stuff. And while that last one is normally less useful, it stops a charge dead without even allowing a saving throw, as your AoO goes off before his attack and a fatigued person cannot charge.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that there's a cheap item, Steadfast Boots (MIC), which lets you "ready against a charge" any two-handed weapon without spending an action to do so.
This will work with any two-handed weapon, including those not normally suitable to be set against a charge. With the right weapon you can also trip someone to shut down their charge. Spiked chain, guisarme, heavy flail, dire flail, halberd, and gnome hooked hammer are all two-handed tripping weapons. Of those, the guisarme and spiked chain are also reach weapons, giving you a chance to foil a charger also using a reach weapon. Either of those two would be excellent choices with Steadfast Boots.

None of these will also give you double damage against the charger, but leveraging Improved Trip to attack the charger after they're down is probably even better.

[JaronK]

Chargers are a big reason why I almost ALWAYS pack Novice Slippers of the Setting Sun if my character isn't already dipping Swordsage. For just 3kgp (or 4.5kgp if you're adding it to an existing item) they give you a once per encounter use of Counter Charge, letting you instantly stop one charge cold. It's perfect. And yes, you can combine them with Steadfast Boots if you want, meaning you get to hit your opponent (maybe try to trip them if you're packing a Guisarme... which I do for this exact reason), and if that doesn't stop them you foil the charge with Counter Charge.

JaronK

[Firechanter]

Steadfast Boots seem to be a great option to tag on your foot-wraps. Thanks for bringing these to my attention!

And I also just discovered, but Curmudgeon beat me to it, that these will work will any TH-weapon. Awesome. Yes, the MIC has a couple of gems that give great and useful abilities for small coin. ^^

In this case, it looks to me like you can actually combine the Boots ability with a Diamond Nightmare Blade. Maybe it doesn't inflight eightfold damage, but quintuple doesn't sound shabby either.

BTW, you can have the best of both worlds by way of the Knock-Down feat. You take your AoO as regular attack, and if it deals at least 10 damage, you get a free Trip attempt. Since Steadfast Boots do give you double damage for any two-handed weapon, that shouldn't be a problem.
Again, IF you actually manage to trip that charging brute. As I said, a maxed-out Frenzied Berserker will have something like 50 Str, whereas a more generalist melee fighter may have "only" 30-ish.

Where do I find "Power Word Fatigue"? It's not in the SC. :(

[Draz74]

In this case, it looks to me like you can actually combine the Boots ability with a Diamond Nightmare Blade. Maybe it doesn't inflight eightfold damage, but quintuple doesn't sound shabby either.

What's your reasoning? Steadfast Boots work outside of the normal action economy, so they're tricky business ... but using a Strike generally requires a standard action, which generally means it can only be done on your turn.

Steadfast Boots are plenty good without twisting their wording to allow two Strikes per round. And even if you do twist the wording, I don't think it strictly works. :smallconfused:

[Slipperychicken]

Sweet.

I'm actually making a Raptoran [for the (ex) flight] Runescarred [for the AMF] Berserker [for the damage] at the moment, using classic charging-barbarian feats.

I know this is kind of derailing a little bit, but what's the best strategy/counter/abuse when your charger has AMF, Flight, and Twisted Charger (one 45 degree turn during charge)?

[The Glyphstone]

Readied action to put something in his way? A Wall of Iron or Stone will block the charge, and if you time it properly, even the ability to change angles won't help.

[DEMON]

Where do I find "Power Word Fatigue"? It's not in the SC. :(

Races of the Dragon.

[nedz]

Can't you just ready an move action to move out of the way ?
It costs you a turn, and you can either move back or behind some terrain.

[Firechanter]

What's your reasoning? Steadfast Boots work outside of the normal action economy, so they're tricky business

Well I'm not sure about that, but I thought these boots would automatically let you act when someone comes charging at you. So let the ini count change to that phase then, and no need to allow more than one strike per turn either (well, if you made a strike earlier that turn, you would be out of luck).

If however they work differently, and they simply trigger a standard action that automatically is "set against charge" in the appropriate circumstance, then I guess it won't work combining this with a maneuver.


Novice Slippers of the Setting Sun

Ah yes, a little offtopic here, but I'll forgive myself: I don't quite understand how the ToB items work exactly. I find the description annoyingly vage. "Gains knowledge of the maneuver as long as the item is worn" (boy must those guys stink if they can never take off their stuff even for washing)

Does that mean the items emulate the "Martial Maneuver" feat, granting you the maneuver once per encounter? Or do you just _know_ the maneuver and prepare it just like your other maneuvers, even if it's from a discipline you cannot normally access?

[Cespenar]

Ready an action to throw Jumping Caltrops in their way?

[Curmudgeon]

Can't you just ready an move action to move out of the way ?
It costs you a turn, and you can either move back or behind some terrain.
You can do that, but there are problems:

With a readied action you're sacrificing almost all other options. If the charger attacks somebody else you're just standing there, doing nothing.
You'll provoke an AoO if you use a move action to leave the charger's threatened area. If you've specifically readied a response to a charge you've got to wait until they get close enough to attack, because before that they're just moving. (A readied action isn't divination magic, so you can't tell what D&D action they're using until there are no other options. The ready action is just a plan, and uses the character's senses to trigger the plan into action.)
If you ready an action to move away when the charger starts moving, you could end up wasting an action when they end up only moving 5' and make a full ranged attack instead of charging.

[The Dark Fiddler]

A few people have mentioned trying to get out of range, but don't forget that it's possible to move too close for them to charge you. A bit more difficult, but perhaps still possible if there's more than one charger.

Though moving out of range and too close both rely on winning initiative.

[Curmudgeon]

If someone is too close they can't charge. (They'll be able to make a full attack, but won't get any charge enhancements their optimization has lined up.)

A few people have mentioned trying to get out of range, but don't forget that it's possible to move too close for them to charge you.
Gee, I wonder why I didn't think of that? :smallwink:

[FMArthur]

I still wouldn't like my chances with an Frenzied Berserker or something similarly burly in full attack range, especially if I had to plant myself in his face surrounded by his buddies to stop him charging at the start of a battle.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Gee, I wonder why I didn't think of that? :smallwink:


Oopsies, let's just say that your point was so good that I was reiterating it to drive the point home.



I still wouldn't like my chances with an Frenzied Berserker or something similarly burly in full attack range, especially if I had to plant myself in his face surrounded by his buddies to stop him charging at the start of a battle.

True, but it is a way to stop the charge, still. Perhaps full attack from the whole group is the lesser of two evils... though that means that they're pretty strong anyway, so yeah.

[Curmudgeon]

I still wouldn't like my chances with an Frenzied Berserker or something similarly burly in full attack range, especially if I had to plant myself in his face surrounded by his buddies to stop him charging at the start of a battle.
Depends on the character. Play a Rogue/Shadowdancer with maximized Hide; camp right in the FB's face and thwart both a charge against the R/S (too close; no line of sight) and against targets in any direction where the R/S blocks a clear path. Stand there and use total defense (which Tumble makes a +6 boost to AC) in addition to having a 50% miss chance. The FB is likely to waste their action on a charge attempt that turns into a normal move using the squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) rules to go through the R/S's space. At most their frenzy will get them to lash out blindly with one attack into the R/S's square, which will usually be wasted as well.

[Knaight]

Does that mean the items emulate the "Martial Maneuver" feat, granting you the maneuver once per encounter? Or do you just _know_ the maneuver and prepare it just like your other maneuvers, even if it's from a discipline you cannot normally access?

The ambiguity is pretty clearly there to give people who don't have maneuvers the feat, and those who do a manuever.

[lesser_minion]

I was going to suggest Grease, but it's not actually as effective as I remembered it being -- it's only a DC 15 check to charge over a grease patch (I remembered it as DC 30 for some reason).

Note that most dungeons have uneven floors, which aren't difficult terrain, but are impossible to run or charge over without a DC 10 balance check.

Solid Fog is a hard counter to chargers (feel free to act surprised), and there is a spell called Blacklight which allows you to create 3.0-style magical darkness.


Even better is the look on the DM's face as they try to figure out how much damage someone should take from galloping full on into an impenetrable barrier they didn't know was there. (You usually end up with some variation of falling damage based on how far they moved or could move.)

A reasonable ruling, based on simple physics and the way the falling rules seem to work, would be that it deals 1d6 damage for every 40 feet of base speed the character possesses.

The FAQ advises assuming that it never deals damage, however.

Reasoning:
A character falling 3m, at an acceleration of 10ms-2, takes 1d6 damage.

Assuming constant acceleration (i.e. no drag, because I really don't want to address that here), you get:

v**2 = u**2 +2as

u = 0, a = 10, s = 3 so v = sqrt(60) = 7.75 ms-1.

This works out to approximately 150 feet per round.

Given the way falling damage is calculated in D&D (independent of the size of the creature, for example), it seems fair to use velocity as a starting point for calculating damage from inadvertently running into a solid object.

A charging character is actually moving at their run speed (four times their base speed). This works out as 37.5 feet, or approximately 40 feet since D&D likes to have everything in neat 5 foot increments.


Does that mean the items emulate the "Martial Maneuver" feat, granting you the maneuver once per encounter? Or do you just _know_ the maneuver and prepare it just like your other maneuvers, even if it's from a discipline you cannot normally access?

They simply grant you the manoeuvre. If you don't have martial adept levels, then you can ready every manoeuvre you know, and you may use each once per encounter (this should be explained under "Readying Maneuvers" on page 38).

Martial Study actually has its own rules.

[Firechanter]

re Falling damage: nice calculation, except it's wrong.
In fact, when falling 10' / 3 metres in Earth gravity (and probably also Toril gravity etc.), your end velocity is about 7.7 m/s.

So that's about 25ft/s = 150 ft/round. Since the charger Runs, his Base movement speed would have to be a quarter of that, i.e. 40'.
So if he has speed 40, he should take 1d6 damage. If it's 30, probably no damage as that would equate to a fall from just 6'.

[lesser_minion]

Yes, I managed to put 10m as the distance fallen. Whoops.

[term1nally s1ck]

'I ready an action to attack and 5' step back when he attacks me'

'I ready an action to do X and 5' step back when he attacks me'

Also, sidestep+ hold the line/Reach from the miniatures handbook is the most godly thing ever.

You get within range, I AoO you and 5' step back. You continue the charge, I keep hitting you for dex modifier attacks. Oh, and on my last 2, I step 5' sideways and out of your reach. Yeah. Charging is not allowed.

[Hyudra]

Backbiter? Make him do the damage to himself. Fountain of gore.

Halt? One or two memorizations will keep him well in line. Think you could stick it on a wand, too.

[Gavinfoxx]

What happens if the ubercharger has those charging skill tricks?

[lesser_minion]

By the way, it seems to me like not only is it permitted to use a strike (or any other special ability that employs a weapon and takes a standard action to use) as your readied action when setting a weapon against a charge, but you can still do so when using your 'free' readied actions from steadfast boots.

The rules for setting a weapon against a charge only require that you use the weapon against the charging creature in order to claim the benefit, not that you attack with it. Every single statement of the rule uses the term 'use', not 'attack'.

So if you happen to have a special ability (including a strike) that takes a standard action to use and employs the weapon, then you may specify that special ability as your action when you ready the weapon against a charging opponent.

As far as steadfast boots are concerned, it seems to me that you're free to choose the specifics of the action you're treated as having readied.

Unfortunately, the option to charge as a readied action seems to be gone. That would be entertaining.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Unfortunately, the option to charge as a readied action seems to be gone. That would be entertaining.

No, you still can. But only in cases when you'd be limited to a standard (or move) action, and you can only move your normal speed.

Whether or not you can ready a partial charge is probably up to your DM. I'd say no because you're not really limited to a standard/move action, just using yours later under specific conditions, but some might say yes. Though I don't think you actually mentioned readying it, so... yeah.


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

[lesser_minion]

No, you still can. But only in cases when you'd be limited to a standard (or move) action, and you can only move your normal speed.

I know you're still allowed partial charges -- it's just that 3.5 seems to have dropped the option to ready them when they cut partial actions.

In 3.5, you can only perform a partial charge if you are limited to performing standard actions or move actions on your turn.

That means that you can't ready a charge normally, but you can while slowed or staggered.

Well played, Wizards...

[true_shinken]

Whether or not you can ready a partial charge is probably up to your DM. I'd say no because you're not really limited to a standard/move action, just using yours later under specific conditions, but some might say yes. Though I don't think you actually mentioned readying it, so... yeah.
Well, when you ready an action, that action is limited to a standard/move action, so...

[lesser_minion]

Well, when you ready an action, that action is limited to a standard/move action, so...

It's determined based on what you can do during your turn.


If you're unable to perform a full round's worth of actions on your turn, such as during a surprise round, you can charge as a standard action. In this case, you can move up to your speed instead of double your speed. All other rules for charging still apply.

Readied actions aren't actually described anywhere as being an extra turn -- they're just a way to perform out-of-turn actions.

[Firechanter]

Ha, bloody conversion. :smallbiggrin:

So let me try a little (edit: now soon-exhaustive) summary:

I. Feat-based approaches:

1) Evasive Reflexes. Attacker comes in, provokes, and instead of hitting him you take a 5' step to the right and back. The question here is whether the charger is allowed to extend his movement another 5' (assuming that wouldn't exceed his max movement), and if that's the case, if he can attack in a different vector than his charge momentum is pointed. A point for this reading is that it's hard to come up with a situation where this feat would be any use at all, if not here.
Either way, you don't damage the charger, but set yourself up for a counterattack.

What can go wrong: if you have settled that moving in the described manner keeps you from getting attacked, practically nothing can go wrong.

Cost: 1 Feat

Rating: B-, because you have to spend a feat that you can't use for much else.

2) Stand Still. Even if you don't use Power Attack the save DC will be easily somewhere in the high 30s, which an optimized charger is _not_ going to beat (except for a natural 20). Again, you are ready for a counterattack.
You don't deal damage here either, but the advantage is that the feat has more applications. For instance, you can also lockdown an enemy who's charging not at you but at the wizard you've been assigned to protect.

Both feats require a Reach advantage so that you actually get an AoO. Failing that, it looks like Hold the Line would work with Evasive Reflexes but possible not with Stand Still, as the latter specifically applies to AoOs provoked by _leaving_ a threatened square.

What can go wrong: you can miss your AoO (5%) or the attacker can make his Ref save (5%). Still, your overall chance of success is >90%.
If the charger can Tumble, he can avoid your AoO, in which case you need some kind of contingency plan.

Cost: 1 Feat

Rating: A-. It costs a feat, but you can use it for other things as well. You have a slight chance of failure, and don't damage your attacker.

3. Tripping. The idea is elegant and simple: as the attacker charges in and provokes, you use the AoO for a trip attack and send him sprawling. No more charge. With Improved Trip, you can hit him when he's down. If you also have Knock-Down, you can just strike a regular AoO and will get a free trip attempt.

What can go wrong: A whole lot of things! First, you can roll a 1 (5%), a minor threat. But much worse, a maxed-out Frenzied Berserker will have a Str up to 20 points higher than you (+6 from Greater Rage, +10 from Berserker and +4 from being an Orc or somesuch). An opposed Str roll with a -10 disadvantage is a ridiculous gamble. Your chance to make it is maybe 2,5%.

Cost: varies; 3 Feats for the Knock-Down route.

Rating: D-. The chance of success is just too slim.

4. Elusive Target. Let him attack you, but deny his Power Attack damage bonus, and possibly (rules-lawyering) force him to take the To Hit penalty despite the Shock Trooper feat he will probably have. You will most likely still get hurt, but you will live.
Can be spruced up with Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit, which will further increase the hurt to you but allow you to retaliate there and then.

What could go wrong: even without PA bonus, a berserker striking 5 attacks with something like +37 to damage from Strength alone might still kill you.

Cost: 3 Feats, 2 of which are horrible.

Rating: C. This is not exactly elegant, and somewhat risky, but at least it's not a booked trip to Hades.

III. Martial Adept Maneuvres

Counter Charge: pretty good, especially against larger attackers with the same reach as you. You can force them to make an opposed Dex roll, which you have a pretty good chance of winning (unless you dumped Dex yourself) - more so if your enemy is bigger than you. Reach also isn't a factor at all, another point going for using this against bigger attackers.
You can get the ability by means of a 3000 gold item.

What can go wrong: well, you can botch your opposed check.

Cost: 1 Maneuver Slot or a 3000-4500GP item property.

Rating: A. Cheap and effective, what more do you want.

IV. Item-based counters:

1. Set against Charge. Recommended to use with Steadfast Boots. These allow you to set against a charge and deal double damage with any two-handed weapon. The idea is to skewer the attacker so he doesn't live quite long enough to hurt you.
What you need here is a high enough damage output to take out a raging berserker in one shot. If he isn't already hurt when he gets to you, this is no mean feat.
The jury is still out on whether you can execute a Strike as the action granted by Steadfast boots. If yes, a Diamond Nightmare Blade will give you a total damage modifier of x5.

What can go wrong: if the attacker isn't dead before he can pounce on you, you are a worm farm. However, can be combined with the Elusive Target / Robilars Gambit approach.

Cost: 1400-2100 for the Steadfast property, any maneuvers or feats you want to use with it.

Rating: hard to say, how do you one-shot a Berserker? I'd say
C- if you are limited to a normal attack
A- if you can use a Strike (it's still not a guaranteed kill)

2. Spell-storing weapon. Charge it with Power Word: Fatigue, and bring it on either by means of an AoO or a Ready action. The attacker is automatically fatigues with no saving throw, and fatigued characters cannot charge or run. Nuff said.
Alternatively (if you don't have access to that spell), use Ray of Exhaustion - even on a save success he is still fatigued.

What can go wrong: I suppose he could have Spell Resistance. Low odds, really.

Cost: +1 bonus, which can really add up on your highlevel primary weapon. Alternatively, pack an Efficient Quiver (1800) and a +1 Spell Storing Spear (300+8000) with a Crystal of Least Return (300), and you're set, for 11.400GP.

Rating: A, except for the cost.

3. Ring of Force Wall. Use with ready action or preemptively. Watch as the berserker runs full smack into an invisible wall. Hilarity ensues.

What can go wrong: not much, if you can use the item or get the spell cast in time. However, the item is a bit on the expensive side.

Cost: the Ring should come in around 18.000GP.

Rating: A+ for lulz.

4. Unseen Servant. The poor man's Wall of Force. It can't take any punishment, but it obstructs the way and that's enough to foil a charge. Another very cheapskate version that's ideal for any magician, but can also be acquired by means of an item. The nice thing is that you can cast the spell well before the battle because of the long duration. It has a slow movement speed though.

What can go wrong: you just need to make sure the servant is between you and any dangerous charger.

Cost: level 1 spell, which means a 1/day item should be dirt cheap.

Rating: A-. A good cheap and reliable method for casters, only drawback is the reduced mobility.

5. Ironguard. Make yourself immune to all kinds of metal.

What can go wrong: the attacker might have a Greatclub. Also, won't work against natural weapons.

Cost: 7th-level spell, short duration.

Rating: B because of the high spell slot you have to sacrifice.

So much for now. I may edit further options in later. If you disagree with my ratings, make your case. ^^

[Demidos]

Ha, bloody conversion. :smallbiggrin:

So let me try a little (non-exhaustive) summary:

-exhaustive summary-

So much for now. I may edit further options in later. If you disagree with my ratings, make your case. ^^

Ooooooooor, you could try ironguard. Spell Compendium, page 125
YOU ARE IMMUNE TO ALL KINDS OF METAL (including magical)
Thats right, metal simply passes right through you, they get no save or SR
Cause casters totally needed to be more buffed:smallbiggrin:

[Callista]

Personally, I'd just keep it simple and step behind an obstacle... or, if I were the party mage, create an obstacle.

[The Winter King]

Caltrops. /thread

[lesser_minion]

Caltrops. /thread

Not '</thread>' by any stretch of the imagination, actually.

Even against a charger not prepared for them, they have a worse than even chance of working (attack roll of +0 against AC 12).

And if your charger doesn't have an abysmal Dex, then it's even less likely to work.

[Firechanter]

Updated the summary.

[potatocubed]

2) Stand Still.

blah

What can go wrong: you can miss your AoO (5%) or the attacker can make his Ref save (5%). Still, your overall chance of success is >90%.

Also, if he sees you with a reach weapon he can Tumble through your threatened area. Assuming he has one rank in Tumble, a Dex of 10, and that you're using the standard DC 15 to avoid an AoO, he has a 35% chance to slip past.

[Firechanter]

Uuuh. Good point. Better not tell the Orc. ;)

[true_shinken]

Also, if he sees you with a reach weapon he can Tumble through your threatened area. Assuming he has one rank in Tumble, a Dex of 10, and that you're using the standard DC 15 to avoid an AoO, he has a 35% chance to slip past.

Depends on how much he moves. If he only moves half his speed, you're correct (but that's unlikely). He'll probably take the -10 penalty for moving up to his speed. If he moves double his speed (maximum range of a charge) he can't Tumble at all.

[Firechanter]

Wait. Does _all_ the movement have to be in Tumble mode, i.e. half-speed, or can you elect to just tumble 10' or so?
Where does it say you can't Tumble during a double move? I think I recently read you can tumble as part of a charge.
Using the -10 penalty for full speed, of course, increases the DC to 25, so he needs a lot of ranks to offset that.

[LordBlades]

Sweet.

I'm actually making a Raptoran [for the (ex) flight] Runescarred [for the AMF] Berserker [for the damage] at the moment, using classic charging-barbarian feats.

I know this is kind of derailing a little bit, but what's the best strategy/counter/abuse when your charger has AMF, Flight, and Twisted Charger (one 45 degree turn during charge)?

For AMF one of the simplest defenses, accessible to anyone is the pointy wizard hat (not my invention though):

Take a hollow cone of your material of choice big enough so that you can stand inside it. Now cast permanent Shrink item on it. It's 1/16 as big now (that should be about the size of a normal hat) and cloth-like in appearance.

If somebody approaches you with an AMF on, the shrink effect is suppressed. This means the 'hat' expands to it's original size (a cone with you standing inside it). This means the AMF no longer has line of effect to you (it's blocked by the cone) and you can use the magical charge evading tricks normally.

[Saintheart]

Similar to this, I just ready actions to take a 5 foot step back when I'm in the open vs. cav. or other suspected chargers.

Edit: Saying "batta swing!" whenever you do this is recommended.

So that's how the English won the battle of Agincourt. Had nothing to do with mud or arrows. They all just readied 5' steps against the French cavalry, who obviously were all the ubercharger build. :smallcool:

[lesser_minion]

Where does it say you can't Tumble during a double move? I think I recently read you can tumble as part of a charge.

Not sure, but it's a DC 25 check -- basic DC 15 tumbling would be a hindrance to your movement, so it wouldn't permit a charge at all.

[Curmudgeon]

If he moves double his speed (maximum range of a charge) he can't Tumble at all.

Where does it say you can't Tumble during a double move?
It doesn't say that anywhere, because true_shinken's statement is wrong. The rules for how you Tumble at faster than normal speed are in Complete Adventurer on page 103; it's a -20 penalty, is all.

[Cespenar]

Not '</thread>' by any stretch of the imagination, actually.

Even against a charger not prepared for them, they have a worse than even chance of working (attack roll of +0 against AC 12).

And if your charger doesn't have an abysmal Dex, then it's even less likely to work.

As I've mentioned one page earlier, Jumping Caltrops (CAdv) is better for this. Bye bye +0 attack, hello four attacks of +7. For 150 gp.

[true_shinken]

It doesn't say that anywhere, because true_shinken's statement is wrong. The rules for how you Tumble at faster than normal speed are in Complete Adventurer on page 103; it's a -20 penalty, is all.

I thought it was on ELH, when I didn't find it there, I thought it wasn't possible. Thanks for the correction, Curmodgeon.

[Firechanter]

Another fine combat spell for casters: Leomund's Tiny Hut. The attacker cannot see you, thus he cannot initiate a charge against you. The only drawback of this is that the sphere is immobile, so you have to pick your vantage point with care.

[JaronK]

Not '</thread>' by any stretch of the imagination, actually.

Even against a charger not prepared for them, they have a worse than even chance of working (attack roll of +0 against AC 12).

And if your charger doesn't have an abysmal Dex, then it's even less likely to work.

Downside of Shock Trooper: optimized chargers have abysmal AC.

JaronK

[Ossian]

Vaguely OT (I am a total noob when it comes to such tricks)

Can anyone link me to a resource (a post? a thread?) where it is explained how to

a) get more than one attack during a charge (are we talking samurai style that you run through a line of mooks and slash the katana left and right and then they are diced but only when you sheathe at the end of the charge?)

b) how to get...uh...800 hp of damage? Just so you know, for me a high level of damage would be 2d4 (greatsword) +16 (STR 32 at 20th level assuming you started at 18 and you put all increases there and you are mighty raging) + 60 (favoured two handed power attack) + 2 (charge). 2d4+78.....I mean, not that much....also, let's assume no magic items (as the average charging orc probably would not have them)

Thanks and sorry for the OT!

[Telonius]

A Tan Bag of Tricks could do the job, especially for a standard melee guy with no ranks in UMD. Suddenly there's a large creature between you and the ubercharger. To get to you he'd have to Tumble-charge at -20 for speed and through three enemy-occupied squares - two for the bear and (probably) one for you. The critter will probably go down in a single round, but your allies will have another round to work with to bring down Mr. Charger.

The Charger will need to roll a 47 (not counting any armor check penalty he might have) in order to get to you. While it's possible to get that if you're optimizing for it, it would be pretty hard to score both a +47 on a tumble, and be an ubercharger at the same time.

[LordBlades]

Vaguely OT (I am a total noob when it comes to such tricks)

Can anyone link me to a resource (a post? a thread?) where it is explained how to

a) get more than one attack during a charge (are we talking samurai style that you run through a line of mooks and slash the katana left and right and then they are diced but only when you sheathe at the end of the charge?)

b) how to get...uh...800 hp of damage? Just so you know, for me a high level of damage would be 2d4 (greatsword) +16 (STR 32 at 20th level assuming you started at 18 and you put all increases there and you are mighty raging) + 60 (favoured two handed power attack) + 2 (charge). 2d4+78.....I mean, not that much....also, let's assume no magic items (as the average charging orc probably would not have them)

Thanks and sorry for the OT!

Not sure whether there's a thread for it, but here's a quick answer:

a)easiest ways(but not the only ones):

-Lion totem Barbarian ACF from Complete Champion that grants you Pounce in exchange for Fast Movement.
-Being Polymorphed into something that has Pounce (like Cave Troll)
-Psionic Lion's Charge power
-Whirling frenzy Barbarian ACF from

b) -Leap attack lets you trade attack for damage on a 1 to 4 ratio when charging.
- Valorous weapon enhancement from FR lets you deal double damage when charging
- Spirited Charge feat lets you deal double damage when charging mounted.
- Some races (like raptoran and dragonborn) allow dive attacks that deal double damage with a piercing weapon.
-Frenzied berserker

For example, let's take a lvl 10 orc whirling frenzy barbarian(starting str 18, 22 after racials, 26 while raging) with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and a Valorous Falchion.

while charging his attack routine is as follows:

+16/+16/+9 4d4+104, average damage 327.

[Firechanter]

a) get more than one attack during a charge (are we talking samurai style that you run through a line of mooks and slash the katana left and right and then they are diced but only when you sheathe at the end of the charge?)

There are various ways to achieve this. Basically the trick is called "pounce". You can't attack stuff along the way, but you get a Full Attack at the end of your charge.
A popular way to achieve this is taking Barbarian levels and exchanging your Fast Movement with the Lion Totem (Complete Champion iirc).
You can kinda fake it by being a Martial Adept with various Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances. I'm not very proficient with the Tiger Claw discipline though.


b) how to get...uh...800 hp of damage?

First off, a Greatsword is 2d6, but screw the weapon damage dice. "Thog hit for 1d12+357 damage" - "I sure hope he rolls a 1 on the damage die".
Alright, let's go through this step by step:

1. your damage bonus with a Two-handed weapon is 1,5x your Str modifier. So use a two-handed weapon, and Str 32 will give you +24 damage.

2. There are several ways to twink your Strength, but one way is this: you start with 18 natural. Up to +4 racial from races like Orc. +5 for 20 levels. +5 for a Manual (~130K). +6 from an item. +6 for Greater Rage. +10 for being a Frenzied Berserker 10. That lands you at Str 54 at level 20. A solid +22 modifier to hit and +33 to damage.

3. Power Attack. You can convert up to (BAB) points of Attack bonus into damage bonus. With a two-handed weapon, you get _2_ points of damage for every point of attack penalty. So that's up to +40 damage just for this step, which any character with Power Attack can do.

4. However, attacking at -20 to hit may not be terribly efficient. But you can take the tactical feat Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) that allows you to shift any portion of the attack penalty to AC. So in the extreme, you attack with your normal Attack bonus (+2 for charging etc.) but -20 to AC. The idea here is to kill your target in one fell swoop before it can retaliate. Many counter-charge concepts in this thread attack exactly from this angle, i.e. exploit the abyssmal AC the charger will have.

5. Frenzied Berserker 10 gives a special ability that increases your PA damage bonus by 100%. Not "double", which would just increase the multiplier by one, but specifically 100%. So for every 1 point of attack (or AC) you get 4 points of bonus damage, two-handed attack of course because anything else would be idiotic.

6. And then there is a feat "Leap Attack" that does the same again, i.e. increase your PA damage by 100%. Combining these two steps will yield 8 points of damage for each point of PA penalty.

7. Let's not forget that at this level you are expected to have a +5 weapon.

So far, with full Power Attack and all those gimmicks, you get 2d6+5+33+(20*8) = 2d6+198 damage per hit.

Your main attack: 20 BAB + 22 Str + 5 GMW + 2 Charge = +49 _without_ any further optimization, which certainly exists.
Then there's also a way to get an extra attack at full bonus during your pounce, and another thingy that allows you to deal double damage on each hit again, but I forget how exactly that comes to pass. We'll let these slide for now.

So your Full Attack is: +49/+44/+39/+34. If your target has an AC of 36 or less, you will hit on every attack except on a natural 1. Even if your target has AC 44, you will on average land more than 3 hits, doing a minimum of 600 damage. And that's _still_ not fully optimized. With those additional tricks I mentioned, you can One-shot the Tarrasque.

Edit: ah right, the Double Damage comes from the Valorous Weapon and the extra attack is Whirling Frenzy. Thanks for the reminder!

So at lvl 20 the attack will be +49/+49/+44/+39/+34, for an average of about 800x2 = 1600 damage, vs. AC 44 mind you.
However, the level 10 example given by LordBlades is much more applicable, and scary enough.


also, let's assume no magic items (as the average charging orc probably would not have them)

The average charging Orc won't be level 20, either. If pitted in the game as an opponent, you should outfit him with gear according to the Wealth-by-Level For NPCs table in the DMG or his CR will be off. That's nowhere near as much gear as a PC will have, but it suffices to do the job.

The downside of course is that this monster can't do anything _but_ charge. He will have mediocre Dex but can only wear Light armour; thus a horrible Armour Class, and an even more horrible Will Save. Even Con can't be too great because all the boosts go into Str; still you have to reckon about 300HP while raging.