3.5 Wizard please help

[Wonderman]

My friend is starting up a 3.5 adventure at level 10 so I decided to go Wizard. So far I have read almost every single guide, rulebook,spell list, and anything else people have been redirecting me to, i've spent lots of time thinking. What I have come up with so far though, is quite lacking. I'm indecisive on which race I should go (Restricted to LA+0), whether or not I should specialize (Though Abrupt Jaunt is godly) and if Wiz7/Incantrix10/Archmage3 is worth it. If you could please help me with that, and maybe a spell list or feat list. I'm starting with anywhere from 20-24 Int depending on what items i'm getting and what race i'm going (19K to spend, thinking Headband of Int+4).

This is what i have so far
Spells
0 -4: Detect Magicx3, Read Magic
1st -6: Mage Armorx2, Color Spray, Mount, Ray of Enfeeblementx2
2nd -5: Rope Trick, Invisibility, Bulls strx3
3rd -5: Haste, Shivering TouchX4
4th-4: Black TentaclesX2, Solid fogX2
5th -3: Teleport, Summon Monster VX2

Stats

Con-16
Dex-16
Int-18
Wis -8
Cha-8
Str-8

All help on builds, spells lists and feat lists would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As long as you aren't specializing in Enchantment or Evocation, you should always specialize. Free spells per day is nothing to laugh at.


For builds, the main issue is: what do you want to do. Your set-up right now is solid, however. I am questioning why you only have 19k GP, as WBL at 10th should be ~49k, but generally you'll want more INT, CON, DEX, and then get out of jail cards like rings of diamond mind maneuvers to swap out concentration for a fort or reflex save once per encounter.

[Geiger Counter]

just throwing it out there but changelings make great wizards.
recaster is a fine prc and did I mention you get a shapeshifting familiar

[Andion Isurand]

Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon (-2 Dex, +2 Con)
Arctic template from Dragon 306 (+2 Con, -2 Cha)

You can use the above to adjust the any of the races below.
...depending on what the DM allows.
-----------------------------------------

Sun Elf (FRCS + RoF)
-2 Con, +2 Int

Fire Elf (UA)
+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha

Grey Elf (MM)
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int

Arcane Gnome (Dragon 291)
-2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis

Deep Imaskari (Underdark)
-2 Dex, +2 Int

Aleithian Dwarf (Online)
+2 Con, +2 Int, -4 Cha
Favored: Psychic Warrior or Psion

"Lesser" Teifling (PGtF)
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha
Favored: Rogue

"Lesser" Cansin (PGtF + Dragon 297)
+2 Int, +2 Cha
Favored: Sorcerer

"Lesser" Axani (PGtF + Dragon 297)
+2 Int, +2 Wis
Favored: Monk

----------------------------------------
You can also use this one if you like:

Magic-blooded template from Dragon 306 (-2 Wis, +2 Cha)... changes favored class to sorcerer

[gbprime]

I'm partial to elf generalists for wizards, particularly if you combine it with Domain Wizard. And dweomerkeeper as a PrC is stupifyingly capable by level 10, and by level 14 they start to own the universe. (They actually do and are collecting rent on it at level 18...)

From recent thread, here...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10455211&postcount=10

[Rahas]

If you want to stack int there is a race, gray elf, gives +2 int and is LA 0. I believe its from MM1 but you would want to look into it yourself to make sure that it isn't hurting you too much. If you specialize you can effectively have 6 spell slots per level not counting Int mod by using Focused Specialist (Complete Mage).

I would also change your spell selection a little bit, drop Color spray unless the 1 round of stun is really important for you, and grab either Grease or one of the lesser orb from Spell Compendium. Another change you can do is change one of your third level spells to Greater mage armor (SC) which would free up your first level slots of mage armor for either more battlefield control or simple ranged damage output. But spells choice does heavily depend on what schools you have access to because to be a focused specialist it requires you to ban 3 of them

[Firechanter]

And I throw in the counter-argument: if you want to be a Specialist _and_ Incantatrix, you end up with _three_ barred schools. That's giving away a lot of versatility and also fun.

The most redundant schools are probably Necromancy and Evocation. For an Incantatrix I'd give up Necromancy; the party Cleric is going to have the important spells, and most stuff can be covered by other schools.

Evocation is mostly "flashy damage spells", but also has various neat utility spells. Yes, it's droppable, but it's also a fun school to have.

Never-ever give up Conjuration or Transmutation. (A certain ambiguously-gendered Elf wizard gave up Conjuration and look what a pain travelling is for his party, all without Teleport.) Transmutation can emulate many schools and be emulated by none. Abjuration is also too good to lose and as Incantatrix you can't give it up anyway. Nobody can give up Divination and it's an underrated School besides - in fact, I recommend taking Spontaneous Divination and buy all the Div spells you can get.
That leaves only Enchantment as last option, and I find there are some nice, useful and fun spells in there, too.

Long story short, when I built an elf wizard with Incantatrix levels, I chose to drop Necromancy. I also went for Elf Generalist Wizard and Ultimate Magus, and now at level 18 I have some 70 spells per day, including 3 level 9 slots and not counting cantrips.
As a Specialist, that would be 78 spells, no extra level 9 spell, but two more barred schools -- not worth it. The only thing I'm missing out on is Abrupt Jaunt, which really is awesome, but I don't regret my decision.
(BTW, At level 20 I can expect 6 level 9 slots.)

Ultimate Magus is quite a numbercrunching exercise though, and a pretty rules-heavy PrC, so if this is your first full caster in D&D, I guess I'd stay clear from it. You can't go wrong with Wiz/Incantatrix, though. :smallsmile:

[Wonderman]

Thanks for all the great advice!
I'm thinking of going Focused Specialist on either Transmutation or Conjuration and dropping Divination, Necromancy and Enchantment.

As far as the gold, could you point me where it says that so I can show my DM?

Also, is the ultimate magus a lot stronger than incantrix?

So i'm thinking in total, Grey elf or "Lesser" Tiefling Focused specialist Conj dropping the above.

Either wiz7/Incantrix10/Archmage3

Or Wiz/Ultimate Magus build
Ideas?

[tyckspoon]

Thanks for all the great advice!
I'm thinking of going Focused Specialist on either Transmutation or Conjuration and dropping Divination, Necromancy and Enchantment.

As far as the gold, could you point me where it says that so I can show my DM?


Table 5-1, DMG page 135. Note that he may simply want to have a 'lower power' or 'lower magic' game, which are valid reasons to reduce the magic item budget, but he's probably doing it wrong (you don't achieve that kind of game by simply giving your players less magic items and then letting one of them play an Incantatrix- that just means there's less stuff around for the rest of the world to use to keep up with the Incantatrix.)

[Wonderman]

And I throw in the counter-argument: if you want to be a Specialist _and_ Incantatrix, you end up with _three_ barred schools. That's giving away a lot of versatility and also fun.

The most redundant schools are probably Necromancy and Evocation. For an Incantatrix I'd give up Necromancy; the party Cleric is going to have the important spells, and most stuff can be covered by other schools.

Evocation is mostly "flashy damage spells", but also has various neat utility spells. Yes, it's droppable, but it's also a fun school to have.

Never-ever give up Conjuration or Transmutation. (A certain ambiguously-gendered Elf wizard gave up Conjuration and look what a pain travelling is for his party, all without Teleport.) Transmutation can emulate many schools and be emulated by none. Abjuration is also too good to lose and as Incantatrix you can't give it up anyway. Nobody can give up Divination and it's an underrated School besides - in fact, I recommend taking Spontaneous Divination and buy all the Div spells you can get.
That leaves only Enchantment as last option, and I find there are some nice, useful and fun spells in there, too.

Long story short, when I built an elf wizard with Incantatrix levels, I chose to drop Necromancy. I also went for Elf Generalist Wizard and Ultimate Magus, and now at level 18 I have some 70 spells per day, including 3 level 9 slots and not counting cantrips.
As a Specialist, that would be 78 spells, no extra level 9 spell, but two more barred schools -- not worth it. The only thing I'm missing out on is Abrupt Jaunt, which really is awesome, but I don't regret my decision.
(BTW, At level 20 I can expect 6 level 9 slots.)

Ultimate Magus is quite a numbercrunching exercise though, and a pretty rules-heavy PrC, so if this is your first full caster in D&D, I guess I'd stay clear from it. You can't go wrong with Wiz/Incantatrix, though. :smallsmile:

I actually really like it if you could give me some pointers on Ultimate Magus so that I can weigh out the strengths and weaknesses.
Could you possibly give me an idea of how to spell/feat it for lvl 10?

Also I liked the specialist route because of the restrictions, i'm very much troubled with looking through a HUGE amount of semi worthless spells which can be emulated with other schools, thoughts?

[JeminiZero]

As I see it your options are:

1) Specialize in Divination: Because unlike any other school, specializing in Divination only bans 1 school. Drop Evocation. You retain most of your versatility this way, although you do lose Contingency.

2) Focused Specialist: Conjuration or Transmutation. Your spells per day start to equal a sorcerer, but you have to drop 3 schools. I would recommend Evocation, Enchantment and either Necromancy or Abjuration.

From a battlefied control/debuff perpesctive Enchantment is largely made redundant by Illusion, which also has a wide selection of mind affecting will save or lose spells (with the simplest example at level 1 being Sleep vs Color Spray). But note however, that Illusion cannot charm/suggest/dominate.

The 3rd school to drop is a hard one and you have to start making tough choices. Contrary to the opinion above, I believe the Cleric CANNOT cover necromancy. They lack Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness, Ray of exhaustion, Enervation, Burning Blood, Necrotic Skull bomb, Avasculate among many other spells (unless they have specifically take domains for it, but thats a whole other ballgame).

The alternative is to ban abjuration, you lose many vital spells also. The cleric can cover some of the essential ones (Notably the Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Protection/Magic Circle against X, Greater/Superior Resistance, Resist/Protection/Immunity to Energy), but not all the useful ones (Ray Deflection, Anticipate Teleport, Iron Guard, Mind Blank!). Like I said its a hard choice between Abjuration and Necromancy.

As for your gold:
-Don't forget that copying spells costs money. Specifically 100 gp per page, and possibly a copying fee to the wizard you are copying from. Its quite easy to drop thousands of gold on adding to your spellbook.

-On a related note, look up how to enhance your spellbook in Complete Arcane. In particular, the Spell Tattoos on pg 186. I would recommend you tattoo a couple of spells on yourself (probably 1 multipurpose spell from each level, in addition to Summon Component and Rope Trick) so that you won't be completely useless if your spellbook is stolen/sundered (Summon Component so that with preparation you can cast without your spell component pouch, unless you already have Eschew Materials. Rope Trick so that your entire party can rest in dangerous areas).

-There are ways to get 0 ASF armor for wizards. The most straight forward is the Twilight Mithral Chainshirt +1, which also has 0 ACP, so you take no non-proficiency penalty for wearing it. At the least, it saves a couple of level 1 spells from spamming mage armor, and prevents your AC from dropping if you are dispelled.

-Similiarly, a Mithral Heavy Shield +1 costs 2k+ gp, and has 0 ASF/ACP. Since cost is a concern, you can mix and match these if you want (E.g. cast Mage Armor, but carry the shield).

[ZeroSpace9000]

Unfortunately, you will need to come up with another school to drop, as you cannot drop Divination. Nor should you, as there are lots of really handy spells in there, it's just that they won't help too much in combat.

[Andion Isurand]

You may not get your DM to sign off on stacking the benefits gained from stacking the Domain Wizard variant (UA) and the first Elven Wizard Subsitution Level (RotW) since they both come from giving up the ability to specialize.

Although the third Elven Wizard Subsitution Level is great choice if you can get signed off on a Hummingbird familiar (Dragon Magazine 323) and double the Initiative bonus it grants from +4 to +8.

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As far as first level only feats go, one of my favorites for Int based characters is Keen Intellect (Dragon Magazine 318). With that feat... you may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier for Will saves, as well as Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival skill checks.

Basically it allows you to dump wisdom even further.

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I would also recommend the Combat Wizard variant (UA) where you get fighter feats in place of Scribe Scroll and your wizard bonus feats.

The Martial Study feat (ToB) is a fighter feat a great way to obtain Tumble as a class skill (when choosing a desert wind manuver)... allowing you to up the skill for tumbling away from enemies and out of AMFs and Silence spells before casting your spells for the turn.

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If you do go for Ultimate Magus, the a beguiler/wizard is a good choice if you want to stay focused on Intelligence.

[pinballchico]

While I'm yet to be near the lvl you're starting at I will say that focused specialist conj. is awesome just for the ability to trade the familiar for abrupt jaunt. I can only use it 3 times a day...and it always saves me, or lets me do something really cool I couldn't do otherwise. I'm always sad/scared when its run out. So just don't forget that option. Never being a higher lvl Wiz I'm not sure of its usefulness. But at low lvl. I wouldn't ever play a wizard without it.

[FMArthur]

Here's a short list of very good Wizard options that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

First of all, never forget Uncanny Forethought from Exemplars of Evil when building a Wizard. It's not mandatory, but it always needs to be considered at the very least, because it's crazy good. More info on UF and ways to shoehorn it into a Wizard:
UF requires Int 17 and Spell Mastery. Basically, when you prepare spells you can reserve (leave empty) a number of spell slots up to your Int modifier to spontaneously cast any of your Spell Mastery spells from the same level as the slot or lower, or as a full-round action, any of your other spells of the same level or lower at -2 caster level. This also means that you can reserve your specialist slots to cast any of your normal spells out of them - synergizing pretty hard with the Focused Specialist option which might otherwise devote most of your highest tier of slots to horrible Conjuration spells. :smallwink:

Offsetting the reduced caster level does take its own resources however, since it's unlikely you'll actually want your comparatively low-level Spell Mastery spells casted spontaneously and you won't be able to cast your highest level spells this way because for this particular usage you won't have their minimum caster level. If you want to you can use the Feat Retraining option in PHII to "update" your Spell Mastery, but it's a sort of convoluted Benny Hill-esque process because you have to make sure UF is always later in your build than SM.

So. Improving your caster level can come from a variety of fairly painless options:
Using Ultimate Magus with Wizard levels alone via Spontaneous Divination or Alacritous Cogitation. UF should qualify you, but never explicitly names itself as spontaneous casting so it's unreliable. I favour Alacritous Cogitation over Spontaneous Divination (they both contend for your 5th level feat), but it's up to you and you get bonus metamagic feats as compensation, making the investment more or less free if you were going to get metamagic feats. You don't get to spend your spells for metamagic, though, so it's a somewhat wasteful use of Ultimate Magus.
Taking the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You can pay yet another feat just for Uncanny Forethought, and unlike Ultimate Magus, don't get more feats back for it. UF is probably worth 3 feats, but it's a bit much to still be able to treat it as a universal Wizard option.
Choosing Illumian: as your race. This is my preferred option - basically if you were a human and were going to pay a feat to offset Uncanny Forethought, there is zero reason not to just make an Illumian instead and choose the Krau sigil for +2 caster level up to your character level. You'll get another sigil at second level. I recommend the Vaul sigil since the two combined lets you spend empty spell slots to improve your saves by the spell level as an immediate action.

List-wide spontaneous casting. Sorcerers, you know where the door is.

Collegiate Wizard from Complete Arcane is just great to have. At first level you start with 6+Int first-level spells for your spellbook instead of 3+Int, and at every level afterwards you get 4 instead of 2. While not strictly necessary, this is just damned convenient. With effectively 8 spells of each level in your spellbook, you don't ever need to look for extra scrolls, magic marts or anything else to get more spells. This is a particularly amazing option for low-magic campaigns and settings where you can't just buy or trade for any scrolls you want upon entering a city, and whenever you level-up in the field. You also save progressively larger amounts of gold, but really this is just a great convenience at worst and an effective anti-'spell starvation' feat at its best.

Sculpt Spell from Complete Arcane is a very strong metamagic feat for +1. Lots of spells all over the place are balanced by small areas of effect - this is both a fantastically cheap Widen Spell (which is +3) and a way for your big clouds of death to actually work around the party instead of having them work around you. The spell shapes are a 10' radius 30' height cylinder, 40' cone, four 10' cubes, a 20' radius ball and a 120' line. Customize your spells however you like.

Invisible Spell is just metamagic gone crazy. For NO adjustment, you can make any spell you like invisible. It's written open-ended like that; there aren't any restrictions and sometimes you and your DM will need to lean back and think about what exactly this feat means for a given spell. For example it is reasonable to agree that summoned monsters should become visible upon attack as if affected by an Invisibility spell, but RAW they don't. Tread lightly with this one.


Also, to make your use of spellcasting completely unseen, Conceal Spellcasting doesn't even cost you a feat and lets you make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by observers' Spot checks to not appear to be casting a spell at all. This conceals both verbal and somatic components through muttering and gesturing. While I use the name of the Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel to refer to this use of Sleight of Hand, it has actually come for free to every caster since the release of Races of Stone two-and-a-half years prior to Complete Scoundrel as an extended use of the skill. This also means you can do it more than once per encounter. You can enter Fatespinner from Complete Arcane with a mere 5 ranks in Profession: Gambler to get Sleight of Hand in-class at ECL 8. It would otherwise require real investment to get as a class skill (not that your foes' Spot checks will be any good if you cast at a distance or while they are distracted).

Also, note that the Feat Retraining rules in PHII technically allow you to take a metamagic feat to qualify for Sculpt Spell and Invisible Spell (each requires another metamagic feat) and retrain the original feat away, with Sculpt and Invisible supporting each other's prerequisite. If Invisible Spell alone didn't get dice thrown at you, this probably will. :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

@FMArthur,

Great post, lots of good advice. Just one thing. Illumians only get two sigils.

"On attaining 2nd level in any class, an Illumian gains a second different power sigil..."

You can't gain a second sigil more than once.

[Aspenor]

Most games use a gentlemen's agreement that anything you use, the DM can use against you. With that in mind, are you sure you want to use Shivering Touch? I'd talk to your GM about this, and get an agreement either way. I just want to warn you that GM's using Shivering Touch are a truly scary thing.

[FMArthur]

@FMArthur,

Great post, lots of good advice. Just one thing. Illumians only get two sigils.

"On attaining 2nd level in any class, an Illumian gains a second different power sigil..."

You can't gain a second sigil more than once.

Ah, how did I miss that? That comes close to ruining a Wizard NPC I was making. How exactly were these sigils supposed to benefit multiclass characters so much, then? That's what the designer blurb talks about most. :smallconfused:

[Elric VIII]

Ah, how did I miss that? That comes close to ruining a Wizard NPC I was making. How exactly were these sigils supposed to benefit multiclass characters so much, then? That's what the designer blurb talks about most. :smallconfused:

They may be referring to the fact that an Illumian Beguiler 1/Wiz 5/UM 10 with Krau and Practiced Spellcaster can raise his Wiz level by 10 from UM, rather than wasting the "+1 level of lowest level class" on Beguiler.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ah, how did I miss that? That comes close to ruining a Wizard NPC I was making. How exactly were these sigils supposed to benefit multiclass characters so much, then? That's what the designer blurb talks about most. :smallconfused:

Perhaps that particular part of fluff came from the time were Illumian were broken good?

Link (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2)

[Keld Denar]

I notice a large amount of Bull Str spells planned. You are 10th level. Any melee worth his salt should have a +4 Str belt. You are a 10th level wizard, you have better things to do with your time than cast a spell on a melee character for a boost he should be bringing to the table on is own. If you are gonna buff, mass buffs like Haste are prefered, but eventually they should be bringing their own Haste too. I would get Greater Magic Weapon. You can use a Lesser MM Rod of Chaining (or Metamagic Effect, since you are an Incantatar), and GMW lasts all day, rather than just for one fight.

[Firechanter]

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to subscribe to this thread.


I actually really like it if you could give me some pointers on Ultimate Magus so that I can weigh out the strengths and weaknesses.
Could you possibly give me an idea of how to spell/feat it for lvl 10?

First off, the UM is in the Complete Mage iirc if you want to read up yourself.
The idea about UM is that you pursue _two_ Arcane Caster progressions simultaneously. Not only does he get the spellslots from both classes, he can also launder over a few spells from the Prepared class to the Spontaneous class, which is a boon especially for part-time Sorcerers given their pitiful amount of Spells Known.
Thirdly, the UM gives a caster level bonus, which will help your SR checks and spell durations, effect of GMW etc. For the fourth, you can spontaneously apply metamagic feats to lower-level spells (max. level 5) without increasing the spell slot if you simply drop a slot from your other class. So if you're an UM 10 and want to Quicken a level 5 Wizard spell, you simply drop a level 4 slot from your Spontaneous side.

The typical setup is like Wiz5/Sorc1 and then UM. That has several disadvantages though. The first is that you need to stat both Int and Cha. This can be circumvented by going Wizard/Beguiler instead, because the latter also is an Int caster.
The second and major problem is that UM delays your higher-level spellcasting class. In the end you will end up with heaps and heaps of lowlevel spells but few or no level 9 slots. This can be ameliorated by a bit of unintuitive numbercrunching: you need to buy the Practiced Spellcaster feat and add it to your _Spontaneous_ class (e.g. Sorcerer, Beguiler...). If done right, this triggers the UM progression to favour your Wizard side, and in the end you keep your Wizard progression losses to a minimum. But still, you will lose a few highlevel slots and get a pile of lowlevel ones.

This can be further optimized toward highlevel spellcasting. Instead of Sorcerer, take Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) as spontaneous class. It's a Cha-casting class so you can't dump that score. The problem here is that you can enter this PrC only at level 9 due to prereqs, so you couldn't enter UM until level 10. Also, Demonbinder does not give you level 1 spells (the progression starts right at level 4), but for UM you need to be able to cast level 1 arcane spells spontaneously.
There are two ways around this: either take the Arcane Disciple feat (Complete Divine I think), which gives you access to domain spells. Or simply take the aforementioned Spontaneous Divination. Either will work, and you can even do both (as I did), but be aware that the spells granted by Arcane Disciple are Wisdom-based, so you can't dump your Wis.
The greatest advantage is not just the Demonbinder spell list (giving you access to some Cleric and Druid spells), but also that your Demonbinder caster level stacks with your Wizard caster level. So with the Practiced Spellcaster trick, you can advance your Wizard progression without any delay beyond the initial Demonbinder level.

Since Demonbinder has similar prereqs to Incantatrix, you can even combine the two. In which case your build at level 10 would be:
Wizard (5) / Incantatrix (3) / Nar Demonbinder (1) / Ultimate Magus (1).

As for feats, you need Iron Will and Spell Focus:Conjuration, and as I said either Spontaneous Divination or Arcane Disciple. I also took Extend Spell, and generally you will want to get as many metamagic feats as possible, because both Incantatrix and UM focus on metamagic stunts.

Another little trick here is that Arcane Disciple allows you to take the War Domain, including Divine Power, which you then can make Persistent with the metamagic feat and dropping an extra level 6 spell slot. You still shouldn't engage in Melee, but your ranged touch attacks aren't gonna miss now.

Alright, all that probably sounded terribly complicated... and it is. If it confuses you, you can always just stick to Wizard/Incantatrix and also rock pretty hard. :)

Oh, concerning your spellbook: Eberron CS introduced Spellshards that cost some 6000GP, store 500 pages of spells and _do not incur material cost when inscribing new spells_. So if you buy the spells as such for 50gp/level, a total of 500 spell levels will cost you only 31K instead of 75K. Way to go.

[[CLASSIFIED]]

+1 to Elven Generalist, especially as with the aforementioned Arctic template, you really make up for the main weakness of elves as casters, which is their -2 CON modifier.

The magic-blooded template from the same article as the arctic template will also allow you to negate the hit to CHA from the arctic template and take a penalty to WIS instead if you want to.

If you're trying to make a really powerful character, I would also give +1 to Dweomerkeeper and Incantrix, while suggesting (for even more horrendously broken cheese) Tainted Scholar and Beholder Mage. I can't remember if anyone mentioned it already, but Ur-Priest is deliciously powerful too.

After saying all of this, I'm also going to say that it's probably better if you check with your DM about most of these things to make sure that they're okay with him/her.

[Wonderman]

This can be further optimized toward highlevel spellcasting. Instead of Sorcerer, take Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) as spontaneous class. It's a Cha-casting class so you can't dump that score. The problem here is that you can enter this PrC only at level 9 due to prereqs, so you couldn't enter UM until level 10. Also, Demonbinder does not give you level 1 spells (the progression starts right at level 4), but for UM you need to be able to cast level 1 arcane spells spontaneously.
There are two ways around this: either take the Arcane Disciple feat (Complete Divine I think), which gives you access to domain spells. Or simply take the aforementioned Spontaneous Divination. Either will work, and you can even do both (as I did), but be aware that the spells granted by Arcane Disciple are Wisdom-based, so you can't dump your Wis.
The greatest advantage is not just the Demonbinder spell list (giving you access to some Cleric and Druid spells), but also that your Demonbinder caster level stacks with your Wizard caster level. So with the Practiced Spellcaster trick, you can advance your Wizard progression without any delay beyond the initial Demonbinder level.

Since Demonbinder has similar prereqs to Incantatrix, you can even combine the two. In which case your build at level 10 would be:
Wizard (5) / Incantatrix (3) / Nar Demonbinder (1) / Ultimate Magus (1).

As for feats, you need Iron Will and Spell Focus:Conjuration, and as I said either Spontaneous Divination or Arcane Disciple. I also took Extend Spell, and generally you will want to get as many metamagic feats as possible, because both Incantatrix and UM focus on metamagic stunts.




So i'm going wizard for 5 levels go into incantrix 3, taking the required feats etc. go Demonbinder for the dip into spontaneous casting for Ultimate magi. Practiced Spellcaster feat: Nar Demonbinder and Illumian Spell level increase to get ahead of Wizard so that progression into ultimate magi is for wizard instead of Demonbinder?
Sorry, gonna have to explain this in simpler terms to my DM.

If that made sense which it kind of does for me I think i've got it, along with that my stats would have to be something around (below).

Str:10
Dex:14
Wis:10
Cha:16
Int: 24
Con:16

This is with a Belt of Magnifigance +2 and a headband of intellect.

Feats something like: Focused Spell-Caster: (Demonbinder), Spell Focus: Conjuration, Extend Spell, Iron Will?

[Keld Denar]

You won't get the right distribution with that build. Even with Illumian Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster, thats only 6 caster levels. Wizard5/Incantatar3 is 8 levels. Thus, when you're a Wizard5/Incantatar3/NarDemonbinder1, you'll have a wizard CL of 9 (8 + 1 from Illumian) and a NDB CL of 7 (1 + 4 from Practiced Spellcaster + 2 from Illumian). Thus, since your wizard CL is lower than your NDB CL, your odd levels will go toward NDB instead of wizard casting and you'll lose even more precious wizard spellcaster levels.

If you are going to play around with UM, do it with Wizard4/Beguiler1/UM10. If you don't, you are probably best skipping UM and doing something else, like more Incantatar or maybe some Master Specialist or Iot7V or Archmage.

[Wonderman]

You won't get the right distribution with that build. Even with Illumian Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster, thats only 6 caster levels. Wizard5/Incantatar3 is 8 levels. Thus, when you're a Wizard5/Incantatar3/NarDemonbinder1, you'll have a wizard CL of 9 (8 + 1 from Illumian) and a NDB CL of 7 (1 + 4 from Practiced Spellcaster + 2 from Illumian). Thus, since your wizard CL is lower than your NDB CL, your odd levels will go toward NDB instead of wizard casting and you'll lose even more precious wizard spellcaster levels.

If you are going to play around with UM, do it with Wizard4/Beguiler1/UM10. If you don't, you are probably best skipping UM and doing something else, like more Incantatar or maybe some Master Specialist or Iot7V or Archmage.

"The demonbinder's caster level is equal to his demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice."

Wouldn't that even it out?

Edit: Even without Illumian?

[Firechanter]

I can't quite make out what your starting stats are supposed to be, but yeah, sort of like that.
(I went for Gray Elf because I couldn't resist the temptation of +2 Int, even if it meant running around with a measly 8 Str).

See if your DM allows you to acquire Iron Will by means of a trip to the Otyugh Hole.

Actually I don't know what this Illumian thing is, never heard of that. Which is to say, you don't need it.

You're perfectly right, NDB caster level stacks on top of your Wizard level, so when you take it at level 9, yuor Wizard CL is 8 and your NDB Cl is 9.

Don't forget that you need to gain the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells. So Spontaneous Divination as bonus feat on 5th level is the easiest way.

BTW, you don't need to take Practiced Spellcaster right away if you're going for the Demonbinder build. That can wait until level 14 or even 15. So no need to bother your DM about this right away. ;)

At level 10, your character wealth should be 49.000GP, but your spells also count against that sum. So I would recommend not going higher than a +4 Int item.

[Keld Denar]

Awwww crap. Yea, I forgot that it had something like the Ur-Priest clause. Ok, you are right. That would work exactly like you planned.

[Wonderman]

I can't quite make out what your starting stats are supposed to be, but yeah, sort of like that.
(I went for Gray Elf because I couldn't resist the temptation of +2 Int, even if it meant running around with a measly 8 Str).

See if your DM allows you to acquire Iron Will by means of a trip to the Otyugh Hole.

Actually I don't know what this Illumian thing is, never heard of that. Which is to say, you don't need it.

You're perfectly right, NDB caster level stacks on top of your Wizard level, so when you take it at level 9, yuor Wizard CL is 8 and your NDB Cl is 9.

Don't forget that you need to gain the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells. So Spontaneous Divination as bonus feat on 5th level is the easiest way.

BTW, you don't need to take Practiced Spellcaster right away if you're going for the Demonbinder build. That can wait until level 14 or even 15. So no need to bother your DM about this right away. ;)

At level 10, your character wealth should be 49.000GP, but your spells also count against that sum. So I would recommend not going higher than a +4 Int item.

Mmmk, thanks again for the awesome advice! And yes i'm going the Wizard (5) / Incantatrix (3) / Nar Demonbinder (1) / Ultimate Magus (1). Also as far as the Tattoos and Size/Number of spell books what do you recommend?

Edit: Also being a Grey elf for the nice +2s on both Int and Dex with only the -2 in Con (Kinda important but i feel it gets outweighed) and Str (Probably not going to be benching on the elf any time soon).

[Firechanter]

Word to the wise: this build give you an awesome amount of spell slots (as I said, about 70 spells per day on level 18, where I am now), but at the end of the day, Incantatrix-10 is probably more powerful. My goal for this character was to try out as many spells as possible (it's my first arcane caster; though I played Clerics before) and not having to think twice whether I could afford expending a spell slot.

Oh and btw, the Incantatrix description doesn't specifically say so, but I think it's safe to assume that the Focused Study only prevents you from learning _new_ spells from the barred school. You can keep casting the spells you already know from that school, as described in the Red Wizard PrC description (DMG).

On level 10, that being Wizard-9, you qualify for 5th level spells. It's hard to say what to take, because there are so many awesome spells, but here are _some_ that I like:


Endure Elements *
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy *
Dispel Magic *
Magic Circle against Evil
Nondetection
Protection from Energy
Dimensional Anchor *
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Remove Curse
Stoneskin *
Break Enchantment
Blast of Flame
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door *
Cloudkill
Teleport *
Touch of Idiocy
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Sound Lance
Tiny Hut *
Hallucinatory Terrain
Invisibility, Greater
Ray of Enfeeblement *
Spectral Hand
Ray of Exhaustion *
Bull’s Strength (and the other ability boosters)
Darkvision *
Knock
Rope Trick
Flame Arrow
Fly *
Haste
Keen Edge
Magic Weapon, Greater *
Enlarge Person
Mass Fly
Passwall


Divination spells not included in this list, but get any you can! You can cast any Div spell you know spontaneously, so ideally you should grab them all.

Especially the spells marked with an * are an absolute must-have. Never leave home without them.

This list is subjective and by no means exhaustive, and partially redundant. If your party is small, you won't need Mass Fly, for instance.
I should also note that in general, I prefer long-lasting buffs and effects to short-term boosters, and these again over instantaneous direct-damage spells.

[Wonderman]

I'm also not looking for power essentially, I am looking for power through versatility considering I think the BSF and Sorc should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage, I think i'd like to test the limits on how many spells I could get over raw damage it would be a useful thing to have especially traveling through planes (Which i was just told we will be doing a lot of)*.
*Gate is off limits or restricted to 1 thing through at a time.

[navar100]

Human

The extra feat cannot be overrated. You start a feat chain three levels earlier. If you want a prestige class with an unsavory feat prerequisite, you might be able to get it over with already and still have something nice for 1st level.

The extra skill points cannot be overrated. You never have enough skill points, even for high intelligence wizards. If anything that's one more Knowledge Skill you can use.

Always specialize. You can never have enough spell slots. Find a school for which you have very little interest in casting those spells. That's your opposition school.

[Firechanter]

Human is a good choice for anything, though other races also have their benefits.

Elf is actually not a very good choice due to the Con penalty, except if you go for one that gives Int bonus, then it's decent.

As for Specialization, you will basically keep hearing two opinions, those that say do it and those that say don't. As I said, I advise against it. You have to give up one school for Incantatrix anyway. Now Specialist, giving up two more schools? Maybe even Focused Specialist, increasing the number of Barred Schools to four? Now that's what I would call Narrow-gauge Wizardry.
If you want to cast a lot of spells out of a very narrow selection, be a Sorcerer.

IF you should specialize, at least do it in Conjuration, and swap out your Summon Familiar ability against Abrupt Jaunt. That one's pretty awesome.

Ah yes, as we're about it: your Familiar. Even as Generalist, consider swapping it with something else, since a Familiar won't improve beyond level 5 with this build. But don't let your DM screw you over. Even if you only ever keep your familiar in your pocket (might work with a rat or a weasel), you still gain:
- the Alertness feat
- some more or less useful special ability
- skill synergies
- additional item slots, if you let your familiar wear a belt or something. This one's a little cheesy.

So in short, should you choose to give up the ability to summon a familiar, let it better be for a very good thing.

With my character, I swapped it out against Eideetic Spellcaster (Dragon #354 or somesuch), which nixes the need to have or use a spellbook. Normally I might have kept the Familiar, but in this campaign I am playing two characters anyway (this elven wizard and her Warblade bodyguard), and didn't want to play a third one too.

[Wonderman]

Human

The extra feat cannot be overrated. You start a feat chain three levels earlier. If you want a prestige class with an unsavory feat prerequisite, you might be able to get it over with already and still have something nice for 1st level.

The extra skill points cannot be overrated. You never have enough skill points, even for high intelligence wizards. If anything that's one more Knowledge Skill you can use.

Always specialize. You can never have enough spell slots. Find a school for which you have very little interest in casting those spells. That's your opposition school.

For the feat part, I might look into it but you realize that for a +2 int bonus on a race it is I.E. a skill point per level, the only thing you miss out on is the initial +4 from human...

[Andion Isurand]

Actually... skill points gained at first level equal (class points + Int Mod) x4.

So as far as skill points go, a +0 LA race race with +2 Int possess the same number of skill points as an unmodified human of the same level.

[ericgrau]

Good spells except for bulls strength and summon monster V. And at your level color spray is no longer useful, because everything has too many HD and the save DC is lower than higher level spells. You should limit the list to 1 or 2 bull's strengths for buffing rounds or the beginning of very long fights. Otherwise +X buffs are too weak to use during combat. You should really have at least 1 combat spell among your 5th level spells. As examples, all your level 3 and 4 spells are combat spells, which is good. It's likewise good that most of your lower level spells are out-of-combat spells, because otherwise you wouldn't have time to cast 27 spells in combat.

I hope all the duplicates are space fillers until you figure out other spells. Otherwise you'd be a lot better off playing a sorcerer with the same spells (plus more). All those wizard guides should have plenty of suggestions for other spells to get.

[Bobikus]

To avoid making an additional thread, does Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3 / Archmage 2 with Specialization in either Divination (Ban Evoc to start and Necro for Incan) or Conjuration (Ban Evoc and Necro to start and Ench for Incan) look like a solid setup? Probably going to trade my familiar for Abrubt Jaunt and Scribe Scroll for Rapid Summoning if I specialize in Conj.

[Bobikus]

To avoid making an additional thread, does Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3 / Archmage 2 with Specialization in either Divination (Ban Evoc to start and Necro for Incan) or Conjuration (Ban Evoc and Necro to start and Ench for Incan) look like a solid setup? Probably going to trade my familiar for Abrubt Jaunt and Scribe Scroll for Rapid Summoning if I specialize in Conj.

I've also heard some people claim that Incantatrix is sort of broken. What would be some good alternatives to Incan if the DM decides to not allow it?

[Aspenor]

I've also heard some people claim that Incantatrix is sort of broken. What would be some good alternatives to Incan if the DM decides to not allow it?

That depends on what the goal of the build is. Persist Spell abuse? Be a warforged or necropolitan Spelldancer 1.

For other metamagics (Extend, Enlarge, Widen, Still, Silent) being a Changeling Wizard/Recaster is good, and throwing in a little Escalation Mage will get you even more uses of these meta's for free.

These don't get the benefits of the Incantrix, but are decent substitutes for some purposes.

[Bobikus]

Well, primarily I was going to focus on conj/trans schools, and go with 'battlefield control' spells like freezing fogs, dimension shuffle/etc and buffs/some debuffs, with calling/summons if I need to protect myself directly or the party needs another big guy to get into melee.

[FMArthur]

To avoid making an additional thread, does Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3 / Archmage 2 with Specialization in either Divination (Ban Evoc to start and Necro for Incan) or Conjuration (Ban Evoc and Necro to start and Ench for Incan) look like a solid setup? Probably going to trade my familiar for Abrubt Jaunt and Scribe Scroll for Rapid Summoning if I specialize in Conj.

You can't trade Scribe Scroll for Rapid Summoning - you would need to trade your familiar for it, and can't since you don't have another to trade. And before you ask you also can't take the feat Obtain Familiar to give that up to gain both Abrupt Jaunt and Rapid Summoning. You have to pick one. Abrupt Jaunt is probably the more powerful option by a fair bit in a well-rounded party (because you've already got melee dudes), but either is fantastic and if you're already secure in your defenses Rapid Summoning is superior offensively.

Anyway, Divination doesn't ever seem to have enough amazing spells to specialize in (correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone) despite getting to keep your choice of the bottom three schools in exchange. Also, you must choose Conjuration as your specialization to get either of those awesome ACFs - and Conjuration rocks anyway.

[Aspenor]

You can't trade Scribe Scroll for Rapid Summoning - you would need to trade your familiar for it, and can't since you don't have another to trade. And before you ask you also can't take the feat Obtain Familiar to give that up to gain both Abrupt Jaunt and Rapid Summoning. You have to pick one. Abrupt Jaunt is probably the more powerful option by a fair bit in a well-rounded party (because you've already got melee dudes), but either is fantastic and if you're already secure in your defenses Rapid Summoning is superior offensively.

Anyway, Divination doesn't ever seem to have enough amazing spells to specialize in (correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone) despite getting to keep your choice of the bottom three schools in exchange. Also, you must choose Conjuration as your specialization to get either of those awesome ACFs - and Conjuration rocks anyway.
Divination can be a solid specialization if you play it out properly, and also if the campaign style allows for it to be used to the best effect. You also need to ACT on the information that you gather from it, otherwise it is pretty pointless.

Spells like Prying Eyes, Arcane Eye, Scrying, Contact Other Plane, and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance can be very useful if used properly and acted upon in an effective way.

[Bobikus]

I think I meant Enhanced Summoning over Scribe Scroll.

[navar100]

For the feat part, I might look into it but you realize that for a +2 int bonus on a race it is I.E. a skill point per level, the only thing you miss out on is the initial +4 from human...

But you're not taking a -2 elsewhere as a human. If something is -2 ST/+2 IN then maybe, but the other ability scores are important in their own way. Dex for reflex, intitiative, AC, and rays. Con for hit points and fortitude. Wis for will. Cha for diplomacy and bluff. Naturally mileage varies.

[Doc Roc]

You could also go Strongheart Halfling, but that might get a book tossed at your head. I'm fond of War Mage (not to be confused with warmage), as well as the excellent Initiate Of The Seven Fold Veils.

[Bobikus]

sevenfold looks good. I was thinking something like Wizard 5 (with focused spec conj) / Mage of the Arcane Order 7 / then some combination of Archmage / 7fold for the last 8 levels if asking to go Incantatrix gets a book thrown at me.

[Doc Roc]

I really dislike archmage, actually. It has never failed to let me down. War Mage lets you blast well without making any effort to focus on it. It's in age of mortals, a dragonlance book.

[Bobikus]

I'm more into Conjuring and area stuff than straight up blasting, and the Archmage level or two would be for Mastery of Shaping and maybe Arcane Reach.

[Doc Roc]

I'm more into Conjuring and area stuff than straight up blasting, and the Archmage level or two would be for Mastery of Shaping and maybe Arcane Reach.

Commendable. I just find that sometimes the party has certain.... unfortunate and incorrect expectations that can be fulfilled by stealing Wings of Flurry from the sorcerer's list.

[Bobikus]

I still need to read War Mage actually. I think I have the book it's in at least.

[Tyndmyr]

I actually really like it if you could give me some pointers on Ultimate Magus so that I can weigh out the strengths and weaknesses.
Could you possibly give me an idea of how to spell/feat it for lvl 10?

Also I liked the specialist route because of the restrictions, i'm very much troubled with looking through a HUGE amount of semi worthless spells which can be emulated with other schools, thoughts?

Basically, the way to do UM is to specialize or focused specialize with your wizard half. Use your sorc half to cover the interesting spells you missed from your banned schools. This gives you ridiculous amounts of spells. Utilize Practiced Spellcaster on the sorc side(or better, Generic Spellcaster, if available) to shift off your caster level losses to the slow progressing side. The actual CL boost is solid in it's own right. ACF away at least one of your familiars. Both is my normal strategy.

Elven generalist + Domain Wizard is also a solid option though. Note that these together with pulling a 20 starting Int from Grey Elf starts you with a pretty decent amount of spells as well.

Doc Roc is entirely right to recommend Wings of Flurry. In blasty spells, it is among the blastiest. Add metamagic to taste. I also recommend sorc only spells like Wings of Cover and Arcane Fusion/GAF.

[Andion Isurand]

If it matters, a possible reason to go Sun Elf (over Grey Elf) is that Sun Elves live longer than other elves. (RoF)

Middle Age @ 210 ... Old @ 315 ... Venerable @ 420 ... Max @ 6d%

/////////////////////////////////////////

If you plan on going for UM wizard/sorcerer... you could also try...

"Lesser" Half-Giant -- Complete Psionic pg. 148
with the Spark (Magic-blooded) template -- Dragon Magazine 306, pg. 65
and the Primordial Giant template -- Secrets of Xendrik, pg. 81

-4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, +6 Cha @ LA +0
two favored classes of warlock and sorcerer
...among other traits

[Bobikus]

Is there a way to get Knowledge (Arcana) to 8 ranks before level 5?

Basically trying to think of a good combination of Wizard X / Mage of the Arcange order X / 7fold veil X, with maybe Master Specialist X if I can't get anything else early, Incantatrix X if I don't think it's going to end up breaking the game, and Archmage 1-2. Looking at combinations of those for a conjure specialist.

[Firechanter]

Ranks are pretty much fixed. Which is why PrC prereqs are formulated in ranks; to set a minimum level you can't wingle your way past.

[FMArthur]

Well, I'd only actually use a shortened run of Master Specialist if Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus were important to me, because you're giving up your 5th level feat and paying another feat to get in... and Wizards have a lot of awesome feats to take. Staying in for four levels to get +CL in HP to your summons isn't actually all that great, and a dip in Paragnostic Apostle (Complete Champion) requires only skill ranks and can get your summons Fast Healing 5 anyway.

[Aspenor]

Is there a way to get Knowledge (Arcana) to 8 ranks before level 5?

Not without raunchy, stinky, gouda.

[FMArthur]

Or simply the Primary Contact feat from Cityscape specifying some arcana-centric organization for one extra rank in the skill above your class limit. It requires the Favored feat as well, and you have to take it at the exact level prior to your prestige class entry to actually see the benefit. Both feats are utterly useless besides this. It may be one of the most rotten deals in the entire game. This is, however, abuse-free since it's very obviously and clearly spelled out to be the intent of the feat.

The only other way I know of is rearranging your skill points (via Psychic Reformation) while you have extra hit dice from Inspire Greatness.

[Tyndmyr]

Primary contact is a better deal if your comfortable with chaos shuffles.

[Bobikus]

Too bad I don't get a feat at 4th level then, since it would make Wizard 4 / 7fold 6 / Incantatrix 10 work, and I could get double warding. Incantatrix I'm still not entirely sure if the DM will be cool with, but he's already allowing like 2 (Frank and K)Tome Fighters.

[Bobikus]

Also just realized that I've completely forgotten about Malconvoker. Haven't even read that one yet.

[Firechanter]

Malc is pretty good, but it's even a bit better if you go there from Cleric (Planar Ally spells) or Sorc (higher Cha), and that "Summon any alignment" exemption only really matters for Clerics anyway.

Either way, my first plan for my Wizard char, after looking into PrCs at all, also was making a Malc. I abandoned that plan when I figured that your odds of successfully employing Greater Planar Binding as a wizard are rather slim (due to your tertiary Cha). That's when I stumbled upon Ultimate Magus.

[Bobikus]

Ultimate Magus just doesn't have my interest as much, I guess partially because you learn new levels slower it looks like, and end up with less level 9 spells/spell slots.

[Firechanter]

Well, one less if you do it right -- but I certainly don't want to talk you into it.
There are lots of cool concepts. I suppose you can make a Wizard/Malconvoker work but it won't be optimal.

[Bobikus]

Yeah, if I was a sorc or CHA based I'd try it. Still mainly looking at MotAO, Incan, 7fold with archmage filler I guess.

Heard a bit about shadowcraft mages but haven't looked into them much.

[FMArthur]

Hey, I've taken Malconvoker just for the doubled evil summons and skipped the whole Planar Binding thing! It's pretty great to be able to throw down 2 of your best critters at once.

Shadowcraft Mage is a Gnome-only class specialized in Illusions. They are pretty much the ultimate in Wizard-spontaneity, being able to prepare illusions that can at the moment of casting be used to imitate any Conjuration or Evocation spell. This is significantly weaker than the actual spells until you hit a certain cheese level that makes everything insane. Like "fake" Miracles which are wholly real and IIRC totally free.

[Bobikus]

Sounds interesting, but also like something that would be sort of weak early on.

[Bobikus]

The Treantmonk guide to malconvokers is making it look like a tempting choice actually.