[3.5]Craft (Basketweaving)?

[Black_Zawisza]

I've heard on various D&D community websites that Craft (Basketweaving) is overpowered. Is there a useful application for it derived from a splatbook I haven't heard of, or is it a joke in more ways than one? :smallbiggrin:

[Fishy]

It's an old joke- someone did some Theoretical Optimization to push their Craft: Basketweaving check as high as possible.

It's also what Batman wizards traditionally spend their extra skill points on, to show off how much better they are than everyone else.

[rayne_dragon]

It's a joke.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if some character optimizer hasn't found a way to turn craft (basketweaving) into something as ridiculous as diplomancy or the locate city bomb. In fact, I'm almost sure I read something about a way to subsitute craft (basketweaving) for diplomacy, but hopefully I'm just making that up.

[Darrin]

I've heard on various D&D community websites that Craft (Basketweaving) is overpowered. Is there a useful application for it derived from a splatbook I haven't heard of, or is it a joke in more ways than one? :smallbiggrin:

Craft (Basketweaving) is mentioned in Complete Divine/Spell Compendium as necessary for creating the material component for the beget bogun spell. So it exists as a craft skill by RAW. But after that point, yes, it's essentially an extremely elaborate CharOp joke.

[Doc Roc]

I wouldn't call it a joke, quite. Basketweaving really is----

Yeah, it's a CharOp joke.

[Lord_Gareth]

I wouldn't call it a joke, quite. Basketweaving really is----

Yeah, it's a CharOp joke.

An awesome CharOp joke. With levels in Exemplar, you can use it in place of Diplomacy.

[tyckspoon]

An awesome CharOp joke. With levels in Exemplar, you can use it in place of Diplomacy.

Typically used for the Jumplomancer, because Jump is reaaalllly easy to push sky-high (pardon the pun), but yeah. Exemplar lets you pick pretty much any skill and do it so awesomely that people fall in love with you for it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Typically used for the Jumplomancer, because Jump is reaaalllly easy to push sky-high (pardon the pun), but yeah. Exemplar lets you pick pretty much any skill and do it so awesomely that people fall in love with you for it.

My favorite is Intimidate, if only for the sheer hilarity value of the idea.

Barbarian/Exemplar: "I WILL KILL YOU AND EAT YOUR EYES!"
Peasant: "....I think I love you."

[OracleofWuffing]

Craft (Basketweaving) is mentioned in Complete Divine/Spell Compendium as necessary for creating the material component for the beget bogun spell.
I am very sad that I got out the books to check, but very amazed that it does, indeed, exist. I cannot express this emotion I'm feeling right now adequately.


In fact, I'm almost sure I read something about a way to subsitute craft (basketweaving) for diplomacy, but hopefully I'm just making that up.
As mentioned by Lord_Gareth above, the Exemplar prestige class gets to use its Skill Artistry skill (which is any skill in which you've got 13 ranks) as a substitution for a diplomacy check. Though, certain people find it more fun to use Move Silently for this sort of thing.:smalltongue:

Edit: Pirates.

[Dusk Eclipse]

LIES, LIES I tell you, all the posters are lying to you, for in basket-weaving lies the key to ultimate power!!!

If not, why then would Dictum Mortuum (IMO one of the most respectable optimizers and Handbook writer prodigy) would write a handbook for the Basket Weaver (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook)


Yeaaaaah....it is a joke, baring the Exemplar shenaningans =p

[Doc Roc]

LIES, LIES I tell you, all the posters are lying to you, for in basket-weaving lies the key to ultimate power!!!

If not, why then would Dictum Mortuum (IMO one of the most respectable optimizers and Handbook writer prodigy) would write a handbook for the Basket Weaver (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook)




Well, most GMs will allow you to use it to qualify for War Weaver, which I consider one of the game's strongest and strangest prestige classes.

[tyckspoon]

As mentioned by Lord_Gareth above, the Exemplar prestige class gets to use its Skill Artistry skill (which is any skill in which you've got 13 ranks) as a substitution for a diplomacy check. Though, certain people find it more fun to use Move Silently for this sort of thing.:smalltongue:

Edit: Pirates.

If you can get it approved, I'm fond of Craft (Nothing.) "Watch as I turn this empty air into.. nothing at all!" *fanatical crowds form around you*

And meanwhile, there's this one guy who just doesn't get it. He's still following you, because of the magic of Diplomacy, but it's just so he can try and convince everybody else that you AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WHY ARE YOU ALL FOLLOWING HIM. He's going quite mad.

[OracleofWuffing]

"Sounds like the only way to solve this issue is with a good old-fashioned Nothing-Off."

The fun part is when you roll a natural 1 and you get a ring of twenty-five wishes.

[Fox Box Socks]

The sad part about it is that it isn't a joke.

Pumping Craft: Basketweaving is pretty much the best way to make money. Better than adventuring, since there's less risk of dying and you make more money.

[VirOath]

And, Craft (Basketweaving) doesn't have many limitations on just what you make Baskets with, or for. Because, you can make a big enough basket to act as a boat, or a bridge, or a house, or an impromptu prison. You can get pretty crazy with the skill.

[TurtleKing]

So Craft: Basketweaving is mostly viewed as a joke, but it also has the underlying joke that can it be useful. Wait a minute didn't I see that Craft: Basketweaving was used to make a golem? Be right back.

Edit: Okay I have found a list of constructs that can be made and surprisingly enough Weaving is used. Does this mean Craft: Basketweaving is used to make golems? The list of construsts made with Craft: (Basket)Weaving are Fang Golem, Web Golem, and Hangman Golem.

[Keld Denar]

I think it origionally came up when someone was asking for good feats for their druid. A person mentioned that after Natural Spell, you can pretty much spend the rest of your feats on Skill Focus: Craft(Basketweaving) and call it a game.

Back a LONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time ago.

[Aemoh87]

I thought there was an armor in a splat you could make with Craft:basket weaving as well.

[MarkusWolfe]

My favorite is Intimidate, if only for the sheer hilarity value of the idea.

Barbarian/Exemplar: "I WILL KILL YOU AND EAT YOUR EYES!"
Peasant: "....I think I love you."

Funny story....on another part of the internet, I was discussing how my barbarian wears the head of a black dragon as a helm and the head of a red dragon as a belt. Long story short, he wears them for the intimidation value, but the trope of a princess being kidnapped is so common that his outfit, screaming "I'm not afraid to kill any of those big stinking lizards that call themselves dragons", would cause the panties of a princess to become moist at the sight of him.

[HalfDragonCube]

The sad part about it is that it isn't a joke.

Pumping Craft: Basketweaving is pretty much the best way to make money. Better than adventuring, since there's less risk of dying and you make more money.

Less risk? What harm could come to you while basketweaving?

Now that I think about it, quite a lot...:smalleek:

[Qwertystop]

I've seen a lot more Craft(Underwater Basketweaving), which is a lot more useless. Is the whole point of maximizing it in that build just to see how high you can get a cross-class skill with no special rules, situational bonuses, or named items for it?

[Aspenor]

I use Craft: Basketweaving to make the lead-lined, 7 foot deep basket on which I cast Shrink Item after lining the inside with lead. It's used to block line of effect when somebody charges me with an Antimagic Field, or so that my familiar can ready its action to speak the command word and make it grow to block line of effect required for other, normal dispels.

[Sarco_Phage]

Funny story....on another part of the internet, I was discussing how my barbarian wears the head of a black dragon as a helm and the head of a red dragon as a belt. Long story short, he wears them for the intimidation value, but the trope of a princess being kidnapped is so common that his outfit, screaming "I'm not afraid to kill any of those big stinking lizards that call themselves dragons", would cause the panties of a princess to become moist at the sight of him.

Man, that would make dealing with any dragon, good or evil aligned, a real pain in the ass.

A dragon doesn't care if it's a black, gold, red, or silver you're using as a hat, that's just plum disrespectful.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If you can get it approved, I'm fond of Craft (Nothing.) "Watch as I turn this empty air into.. nothing at all!" *fanatical crowds form around you*

Whats even better, is that doesn't it take 1/3 of the value of the finished product in material to craft said "item"? therefore... if Im not mistaken, you can take 1/3 of nothing and craft 3/3 of nothing... that's 2/3 more nothing than you started with!

[Amphetryon]

tsuyoshikentsu built a character 'optimizing basketweaving' back on the WotC boards, but it's since fallen into the Abyss. You might be able to find it on the wayback machine if you're curious.

[MarkusWolfe]

Man, that would make dealing with any dragon, good or evil aligned, a real pain in the ass.

A dragon doesn't care if it's a black, gold, red, or silver you're using as a hat, that's just plum disrespectful.

You know how dragons are some of the more intelligent enemies you'll face, and will teleport or fly away when you're about to finish them off?

That doesn't happen if you royally tick them off. ANYONE will do something suicidally stupid they're made enough.

[Goonthegoof]

Surely that would depend on their wisdom and or intelligence score? That thing that dragons have a lot of?

And while wearing a dragon may get other dragons annoyed (particularly if they're the same alignment or type), I can't see it causing them enough rage to do something suicidally stupid. Even good dragons have self interest elevated to an art form and pretty much any dragon is willing to wait for ages to get revenge, there's no way any dragon would be furious enough to get themselves killed just because you're wearing one of their kind. The good dragons are too intelligent and the stupid ones (basically whites) don't really care much about other dragons.

[Alleran]

You know how dragons are some of the more intelligent enemies you'll face, and will teleport or fly away when you're about to finish them off?

That doesn't happen if you royally tick them off. ANYONE will do something suicidally stupid they're made enough.
I usually play dragons like Firkraag from Baldur's Gate II, so they generally won't get suicidally stupid.

[MarkusWolfe]

Surely that would depend on their wisdom and or intelligence score? That thing that dragons have a lot of?

And while wearing a dragon may get other dragons annoyed (particularly if they're the same alignment or type), I can't see it causing them enough rage to do something suicidally stupid. Even good dragons have self interest elevated to an art form and pretty much any dragon is willing to wait for ages to get revenge, there's no way any dragon would be furious enough to get themselves killed just because you're wearing one of their kind. The good dragons are too intelligent and the stupid ones (basically whites) don't really care much about other dragons.

Which is why you kill their babies first and taunt them with their heads.

[Sarco_Phage]

Which is why you kill their babies first and taunt them with their heads.

I'm starting to get the impression that your Barbarian is not a very nice person.

[ericgrau]

In one campaign I was in any kind of weaving skill was necessary for planeshifters to manipulate the fabric of the planes. Our main planeshifter chose craft(basketweaving). Later we created a race with a +4 bonus to craft(basketweaving).

[Goonthegoof]

A significant portion of dragons don't really care what happens to their young, and even the ones who do aren't as attached as, say, humans are. I'd imagine it would be quite rare that a dragon would be willing to risk suicidal behaviour just to avenge their young when they can just wait a few years and get revenge in the proper time and place.

[MarkusWolfe]

A significant portion of dragons don't really care what happens to their young, and even the ones who do aren't as attached as, say, humans are. I'd imagine it would be quite rare that a dragon would be willing to risk suicidal behavior just to avenge their young when they can just wait a few years and get revenge in the proper time and place.

It's not just about murdering their loved ones. It's also about insulting their competence as a guardian.

Also, you're RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM. No plotting necessary, they can take you on right now. All they know is that you were strong enough to kill their kid....

[JaronK]

Note that line of effect is blocked by anything that doesn't have holes of at least 1 square foot in size in it, so a giant basket lets you see out without magic effecting you. The Shrink Item trick works great then... wear a shrunken upside down basket on your head, and when an AMF hits you, it will unshrink and block Line of Effect for you by surrounding you, but you can still see out and figure out what's going on.

JaronK

[Goonthegoof]

It's not just about murdering their loved ones. It's also about insulting their competence as a guardian.

Also, you're RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM. No plotting necessary, they can take you on right now. All they know is that you were strong enough to kill their kid....

Yeah, but your example mentioned a dragon being too angry to teleport away if they're losing. Any dragon is going to teleport away if there's a significant chance of dying if they stay and there isn't a reason to stay compelling enough to counteract that - and revenge isn't nearly strong enough of a reason, considering biding their time and getting revenge at the opportune moment is a behaviour dragons are famous for.

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah, but your example mentioned a dragon being too angry to teleport away if they're losing. Any dragon is going to teleport away if there's a significant chance of dying if they stay and there isn't a reason to stay compelling enough to counteract that - and revenge isn't nearly strong enough of a reason, considering biding their time and getting revenge at the opportune moment is a behaviour dragons are famous for.

Possibly, MarkusWolfe's strategy might work on a white dragon, or maybe a younger Red, but definitely no go on a Black or old Red. And even trying that on a Silver means you're going to get a visit from someone in the middle of the night.

[Goonthegoof]

Yeah except whites and reds are both chaotic evil, they aren't going to care about their young. The Draconomicon states both of them just randomly leave eggs around, there's no motivation for a fight there.

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah except whites and reds are both chaotic evil, they aren't going to care about their young. The Draconomicon states both of them just randomly leave eggs around, there's no motivation for a fight there.

When I say "it might work" it ties not into them giving a rat's ass about their children.

Remember, Red Dragons are among the most prideful of the dragons, while whites are the most animalistic. A Red would think it the height of disrespect for a tiny mammal to be wearing any dragon's head (unless he asked for the head in the first place) while a White would react on impulse.

[Goonthegoof]

Yeah, you're probably right for young whites, but that's nothing to do with their children- they're just stupid and vicious.

For reds, I think the key lies in the fact that they spend most of their downtime planning out strategies and tactics for combat, and you'd think 'what if someone tries to goad me into attacking them' would be one of the scenarios they'd have a plan for.

[Sarco_Phage]

Hnnh, that's true. It probably strongly depends on the dragon, though. There can be stupid Reds and (relatively) intelligent Whites.

[Goonthegoof]

Yeah, but there are probably occasionally dragons that care enough about their young to go nuts and try to kill whoever slew them regardless of their own safety like MarkusWolfe said, it's just not that common.
I've always found that to be a problem when DMing dragons - they're really intelligent, they're patient and they have access to a lot of funds, so you end up having to throw really young dragons at the players to give them a chance to win.
I once used a young adult red dragon as an antagonist to a party of 6 level 12 PCs, that one was a massive mistake.

[MarkusWolfe]

A few sessions ago, our group was pit against an Ancient Blue Dragon. It was CR 21. We were level 15. We won because I had specialized equipment, because we had the right team for the job and because we got lucky.

Anyways, the reason it stuck around and tried to murder us all is because he was holding a very young Brass Dragon captive for his own nefarious purposes. We teleported her out in the middle of the battle, and he saw this.

Even if he killed us all, he had still lost because the captive had been rescued and his scheme had been for naught. Add insult to injury, it had also been done by mere mortals.

Boy was he mad.

Moral of the story: If you want to kill big dragons, you have to be a very good troll. And I don't mean a green giant with regeneration who has levels in paladin.

[Goonthegoof]

Which is why that doesn't make sense, blues are really intelligent (a regular ancient blue is smarter than the most intelligent human).

But that's what gets me- sure he might have been mad, but he's a dragon. It was an insult by mere mortals, so all he has to do is escape, wait a while until you're all dead (and he's even more powerful) and eat your ancestors. And then kidnap a very young brass dragon and achieve whatever plans you guys stuffed up.

[MarkusWolfe]

The way the plot was going, time was of the essence; a cosmic event of interest to dragons that only occurs once in 10 millenia was coming up. He kidnapped that specific Brass Dragon to keep her mother uninvolved in the event.

Besides, you keep talking as if dragons were bound by the most powerful forces in the universe to be calm and composed at all times. Do you really think that a high intelligence score means that it's impossible for a dragon to get so angry that it makes an error in judgement that leads to its death?

[Goonthegoof]

Not at all, but to a dragon survival is paramount and revenge is a dish that tastes just as good cold.
About the decision making process? In all honesty, yes. With at least 800 years of experience and intelligence and wisdom far surpassing that of any human alive I'd expect nothing less than brilliant decision making in all aspects of their life, as determined by the factors differentiating them from humans.
I'd expect the dragon to work out you had equipment specifically for killing it and realise that the circumstances were against it and flee if it looked like there was a significant risk of death.
Since you weren't a direct impediment I'd expect it to ignore you (or if you were a direct impediment use some other means to delay or distract you) and fall back to whatever plans it had developed to deal with the brass dragon's mother in case the kidnapping failed.

[MarkusWolfe]

All right, I have no idea who shoved all this nonsense into your head, but I'm going to clear this issue up.

Dragons are stupidly overconfident in themselves. The only reason they are so intelligent is to compensate for their overconfidence.

When a dragon is born, it thinks it's the greatest thing ever. It maintains this attitude until it has a brush with true danger. After that, it thinks that it's going to be the greatest thing ever and that everything smaller than it is worthless trash compared to itself.

Your players got screwed over by a young dragon because you played him like an Aboleth or a Mindflayer. You can never play a dragon like that because they're effectively wizards and 6 high level fighters who don't loose a portion of their total attack bonus, the ability to fly, immunity to one element and the ability to use a large elemental blast mixed into one big creature. If a dragon is actually played to its intelligence score, it will have network of spies that will tell him of anyone who is out to get him. He will then scry on them, gather up all his children and go continuously blast the building that the players are in with his breath weapon. Then he will get his children to do the same. He repeats this process until the players are dead, and the players never stand a chance of winning. And that is just something you shouldn't do.

[yugi24862]

Why are we talking dragons in a basketweaving thread?

[MarkusWolfe]

Well, it's quite simple really....
http://www.bodymod.org/forum/uploads/MontanaPiercer/20090430_151352_derail.jpg

[Sarco_Phage]

All right, I have no idea who shoved all this nonsense into your head, but I'm going to clear this issue up.

Dragons are stupidly overconfident in themselves. The only reason they are so intelligent is to compensate for their overconfidence.

When a dragon is born, it thinks it's the greatest thing ever. It maintains this attitude until it has a brush with true danger. After that, it thinks that it's going to be the greatest thing ever and that everything smaller than it is worthless trash compared to itself.


Yeah. Dragons are literally Elementals of Pride. Blues can be massively intelligent, but they can also be screechy and emotional. It's possible to fake out a Dragon specifically relying on its pride.

Even the so-called "good" dragons are liable to react in such a way. I mean, hell, they're Dragons. They're inherently better than every other race, or so they think.

[mootoall]

I think you're confusing dragons with elves. Damn treehuggers ... But in an attempt to use the psionic save game trick on this thread, I'll mention that the Exemplar trick is especially fun with jumping because of how the jump mechanic works. Essentially, try jumping 900 feet forward. Not so hard with some good cheese. You can only go thirty feet every 6 seconds. They're fanatics because you just jumped IN SLOW MOTION WITHOUT MAGIC. Find ways to lower your base land speed and you're even cooler.

[Goonthegoof]

All right, I have no idea who shoved all this nonsense into your head, but I'm going to clear this issue up.

Dragons are stupidly overconfident in themselves. The only reason they are so intelligent is to compensate for their overconfidence.

When a dragon is born, it thinks it's the greatest thing ever. It maintains this attitude until it has a brush with true danger. After that, it thinks that it's going to be the greatest thing ever and that everything smaller than it is worthless trash compared to itself.

Your players got screwed over by a young dragon because you played him like an Aboleth or a Mindflayer. You can never play a dragon like that because they're effectively wizards and 6 high level fighters who don't loose a portion of their total attack bonus, the ability to fly, immunity to one element and the ability to use a large elemental blast mixed into one big creature. If a dragon is actually played to its intelligence score, it will have network of spies that will tell him of anyone who is out to get him. He will then scry on them, gather up all his children and go continuously blast the building that the players are in with his breath weapon. Then he will get his children to do the same. He repeats this process until the players are dead, and the players never stand a chance of winning. And that is just something you shouldn't do.

Pretty much, yes. While I'm aware that they have massive amounts of pride you gotta remember that dragons have different victory conditions than regular mortal races do - to a dragon waiting a couple of hundred years and killing their ancestors is a victory.
And the process you mentioned is exactly what I do do, which is why dragons are such feared adversaries in my campaigns. They're rare, extremely dangerous and almost no-one tries to mess with them because they're so good at getting revenge.

[MarkusWolfe]

But it's not about a 'win condition'. It's about this little guy, who is really just a speck of dirt compared to your magnificence, who teams up with a bunch of his little friends to make your day absolutely miserable. He kills others of your kind and wears their heads to show everyone how great he is. He walks into your house with his friends and kills all your servants and your children. Then they foil that scheme that you've spent months working on. Then they try to kill you.

It's about putting these pathetic mortals back in their place. You want to kill them and make an example of them for all other mortals to remind them and yourself just how great you are and just how inferior the mortals are. You want to kill them for the cathartic release. And if they're actually strong enough to take you out, then you want to take as many of them as you can with you. If they can get through your defenses once, they can do it again. Mortals have a funny way of getting powerful faster than dragons do, so if they decide to hunt you down they might be even stronger the next time they attack. You also want to kill as many of them as you can so they can't pull this stunt on anyone else and bring lower your glorious master race.

[Goonthegoof]

If they're strong enough to get through your defenses and take you out that means your defenses aren't strong enough and you need to get out of here now. No dragon would decide 'well at least I'll take as many as I can out with me before I go' unless there was no other choice. There is no way mortal lives have value anywhere near your own, taking a few out with you is a poor substitute for surviving and getting revenge at a more opportune moment.

While it's true mortals can sometimes get powerful faster than dragons, the dragon's power will always wax whereas the mortal's will wane. It's just a matter of time.

[MarkusWolfe]

It takes centuries for a dragon to grow noticeably stronger. Mortals can double their power in a matter of years.

By retreating, you loose your treasure hoard, your entire life's work. This lowers your status among the other dragons. The other dragons will also be laughing at you for being beaten by a bunch of puny mortals.

Furthermore, why assume that the PCs won't come after you before you've got your defenses up? They can scry on you just as well as you can scry on them. So you either have the same fight over and over again until they die of old age or you just continuously run away until they die of old age. And that's presuming they don't find a way to make sure you don't run away so they can finish you off. Wouldn't it be more dignified to just fight them once and die than have numerous loosing fights and lose your honor while possibly dying anyways?

Why do I even need to argue this? ANYONE can do something stupid when they get mad. All it takes is one stupid mistake and it's over.

[The Glyphstone]

Because you're taking the position that all dragons are suspectible to these sort of tactics, or that they will always choose to 'go out in a blaze of glory' - if they die...there's no glory.

You might be able to enrage a particularly stupid or reckless dragon into fighting to the death, or make it fight to the death if there's something it absolutely has to defend. In very rare circumstances, you might be able to play on a dragon's pride enough to keep it fighting past when it would retreat if it kept its head. But dragons should never be suicidal, they're too smart for it. Hordes can be replaced, pride and honor can recover, and that poor mortal who insulted and humiliated you will regret it when you arrange for them, their families, their friends, and everyone they ever knew and loved to die in creative and horrible ways, making sure that they know why it happened. You can live for thousands of years...if you're particularly patient and vengeful, let the mortals 'win', then arrange for their entire home kingdom to be annihilated and wiped from the records of history a generation or two later. That's a suitable revenge initiated by a dragon.

Unless you're a White, but then you're just a moron anyways.

[Goonthegoof]

It takes centuries for a dragon to grow noticeably stronger. Mortals can double their power in a matter of years.

By retreating, you loose your treasure hoard, your entire life's work. This lowers your status among the other dragons. The other dragons will also be laughing at you for being beaten by a bunch of puny mortals.

Furthermore, why assume that the PCs won't come after you before you've got your defenses up? They can scry on you just as well as you can scry on them. So you either have the same fight over and over again until they die of old age or you just continuously run away until they die of old age. And that's presuming they don't find a way to make sure you don't run away so they can finish you off. Wouldn't it be more dignified to just fight them once and die than have numerous loosing fights and lose your honor while possibly dying anyways?

Why do I even need to argue this? ANYONE can do something stupid when they get mad. All it takes is one stupid mistake and it's over.

Dragons have access to those same sources of power, they just seldom train class levels because time is going to increase their power anyway - but under the circumstances you're describing a dragon would have motivation to do that to keep up with their enemies.

You only lose your treasure horde if you were dumb enough to have taken your kidnap victim to your lair, which no dragon would be stupid enough to do because most dragons know the location of each other's lairs. But even if it does end up in a fight that it can't win at its lair, no it is not more dignified to stay and die, because if you do that you'll be dead. If you escape and come back when they're weakened by the ravages of time and you're even stronger than you are now then you've won, if you stay and die then you've lost.

And the problem with one stupid mistake and it's over is one fundamental fact - dragon's aren't stupid. They're born as smart as humans and as they age their intelligence and wisdom increases along with their experience, meaning getting a dragon to make a stupid mistake and die from it should get progressively more difficult to do the older the dragon is. The using their kid as bait and making them attack suicidally one would never work, because by the time any dragon is old enough to have children they're clever enough to not go nuts and get themselves killed just because some mortal is wearing their kid.

[Qwertystop]

Because you're taking the position that all dragons are suspectible to these sort of tactics, or that they will always choose to 'go out in a blaze of glory' - if they die...there's no glory.

You might be able to enrage a particularly stupid or reckless dragon into fighting to the death, or make it fight to the death if there's something it absolutely has to defend. In very rare circumstances, you might be able to play on a dragon's pride enough to keep it fighting past when it would retreat if it kept its head. But dragons should never be suicidal, they're too smart for it. Hordes can be replaced, pride and honor can recover, and that poor mortal who insulted and humiliated you will regret it when you arrange for them, their families, their friends, and everyone they ever knew and loved to die in creative and horrible ways, making sure that they know why it happened. You can live for thousands of years...if you're particularly patient and vengeful, let the mortals 'win', then arrange for their entire home kingdom to be annihilated and wiped from the records of history a generation or two later. That's a suitable revenge initiated by a dragon.

Unless you're a White, but then you're just a moron anyways.
Wow, even a mod's following this thread's derailment. Never seen anything go that far before.

[The Glyphstone]

Hey, mods are people too. Besides, the question got answered by the third or fourth post - it's either go along for the ride or lock the thread, and this is more fun as long as we keep it civil.

[Goonthegoof]

Hey, mods are people too. Besides, the question got answered by the third or fourth post - it's either go along for the ride or lock the thread, and this is more fun as long as we keep it civil.

He's trying to trick us again. Mods are all aboleths.

[--Lime--]

**Blergh this turned into a rambly wall of text. Sorry. If anyone wants to word it better and cut it down into a few bullet points, feel free**


I've personally always seen dragons as Mafia dons, with a good dollop of Magical Bruiser thrown in. Sure, he could kill you, but he has henchmen and you really aren't worth getting his hands dirty. If you break into his house in the middle of the night with a gun, odds are he's going to try to take you out rather than escape because he's got a bigger gun and tracking you down later is just more hassle. He has an empire to run, rather than running round looking for a burglar. Plus, the more the henchmen fail, the more it becomes necessary to take care of it himself - how many times have you heard the phrase "if you want something doing round here, looks like you've got to do it yourself!" after the characters escape. I promise you, even if you play dragons as as logical as Spock, it is sometimes logical to fight.

I don't think there'll be too many people will argue with that, so let's get to the nub of it: fight to the death.

Think in films: normally, when the antagonist's plans go to waste, he tries to escape. Films work because the main characters, or his own arrogance, have left a loophole of some sort, or because the characters learned something since their previous defeat, or because of dumb luck. Nobody - except those with strange ideals of honour - wants to fight to the death. But dragons are part of a group too, and perhaps centuries of shame and being trodden down by better dragons could spur a dragon to need to clear his name - or prevent it from being besmirched in the first place? That is, they can be goaded to fight longer than they should, because they have a reputation to keep and taking a cheapshot at your characters' descendants doesn't look as good in dragon society as turning them to cinders in a big ball of burny hurt. And what if the PCs have no children? Where is your revenge then?!

Add in what was said about life's work hoarding stuff, if the PCs are in the lair, and we can see how dragons can be slain.

As a DM, it's your job to come up with a reason or two that the dragon is slayable. Perhaps there's a hidden piece of knowledge that the PCs have quested all game to find out that the dragon never even knew about to go looking for. Perhaps there is an event which removes the timescale of revenge. Perhaps it's possible to sabotage the dragon's escape route without him knowing.

And remember: just because a dragon can spend a hundred years thinking about seventy-fifteen different ways to safeguard an escape route, doesn't mean they will. Maybe a more senior dragon has already taken the best defensible lair, so the one they're in does have flaws? Maybe the dragon's time could be better spent exerting power for better goals, or safeguards could have their own problems. If you want an example of how a safety feature can actually work in a negative manner when combined with another safety feature, there are many examples. Take the Titanic for example. So that the lookout's binoculars wouldn't go missing, one person had them in his locker and had the key. This meant there'd always be accountabiliy, and they would never get lost. Except... he never made it onto the boat. So no binoculars. The structural integrity of some buildings means that they resist earthquakes well - but if something overpowers that structural resistance, as in Kobe, then what you get is steel-reinforced rubble that your rescue machinery can't get through. There's miscommunication: maybe someone phrases something that can be taken in two ways for which the context seems equally obvious depending on your mindset, which means you don't question it.

Really, there's lots of things that can go wrong for dragons. In my opinion, you shouldn't include them in your game unless you can go beyond "The dragon has had hundreds of years expecting you to arrive, and will have hundreds of years after you go, so you can't get in, and if you do then he can bug out, and he's much smarter than you* and you are more restricted by the rules and also I can create the environment because the dragon would have chosen the best one anyway.

*Especially perilous because in a way, the enemy is only as smart as the DM

[Tytalus]

I've heard on various D&D community websites that Craft (Basketweaving) is overpowered. Is there a useful application for it derived from a splatbook I haven't heard of, or is it a joke in more ways than one? :smallbiggrin:

For those interested in the history:

It started off on the old WotC CO boards when someone used this skill as a reference to something completely useless.

It kind of stuck as a metaphor for a senseless investment, e.g., in the aforementioned example, where a wizard/CoDzilla/etc. is already so powerful, that skill points can be "wasted" on this skill.

In the end, however, it did inspire CO folks to prove that it can be a powerful choice. And indeed, it can. A variant Jumplomancer can turn enemies into fanatics with it (no chance to resist), and I believe there was a build that broke economy by creating vasts amounts of baskets.

[Goonthegoof]

[QUOTE=--Lime--;10776660]And remember: just because a dragon can spend a hundred years thinking about seventy-fifteen different ways to safeguard an escape route, doesn't mean they will./QUOTE]

This was mentioned earlier in reference to red dragons, who specifically do just that. They tend to spend all their downtime working out different strategies for different fights.

[--Lime--]

I think I might have been a bit rambly and unclear.

What I meant by that wasn't that dragons fail to or under-prepare; just that if you've worked out a couple of complex methods to safeguard yourself, you will likely turn your attention to exploiting the local population and expanding your power. Therefore, they are not invincible nor is it impossible to bypass, sabotage or exploit their escape routes/defences.

[MarkusWolfe]

I think I might have been a bit rambly and unclear.

What I meant by that wasn't that dragons fail to or under-prepare; just that if you've worked out a couple of complex methods to safeguard yourself, you will likely turn your attention to exploiting the local population and expanding your power. Therefore, they are not invincible nor is it impossible to bypass, sabotage or exploit their escape routes/defenses.

Bingo. As smart as they are, dragons still operate on a principle of acceptable risk.

[Woodzyowl]

So is it a bad thing that my terrestrial drunken master took skill focus, greater skill focus, and epic skill focus in craft (underwater basketweaving)?

[CyMage]

For those interested in the history:

It started off on the old WotC CO boards when someone used this skill as a reference to something completely useless.

It kind of stuck as a metaphor for a senseless investment, e.g., in the aforementioned example, where a wizard/CoDzilla/etc. is already so powerful, that skill points can be "wasted" on this skill.

In the end, however, it did inspire CO folks to prove that it can be a powerful choice. And indeed, it can. A variant Jumplomancer can turn enemies into fanatics with it (no chance to resist), and I believe there was a build that broke economy by creating vasts amounts of baskets.

The way I recall it, basketweaving was one of the answers to 'Help me make a character' threads where the OP didn't do any work themselves.