Evard's Black Tentacles

[Shadowbite]

I wanted to know, do the tentacles damage enemies that have damage reduction? What type of damage do the tentacles count as?

[Aharon]

They deal bludgeoning damage. DR does not apply.


Damage
reduction doesn’t reduce the damage from energy attacks,
spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

[Runestar]

Dr doesn't block out grapple damage anyways, even if it is from a real foe grappling you. :smallamused:

[linebackeru]

They deal bludgeoning damage. DR does not apply.

That's odd...doesn't the spell conjure physical tentacles that do physical damage? Damage from summoned creatures is certainly subject to DR.

[Pigkappa]

DR does not apply.

So any spell can bypass any DR? I and my fellow players always thought it didn't, unless it was DR/Magic.

This makes casters even better than I thought >_<.

[Eurus]

That's odd...doesn't the spell conjure physical tentacles that do physical damage? Damage from summoned creatures is certainly subject to DR.

It is odd, and slightly nonsensical, but true as far as the rules are concerned.

[Zherog]

So any spell can bypass any DR? I and my fellow players always thought it didn't, unless it was DR/Magic.

This makes casters even better than I thought >_<.

DR/magic applies to +1 or better weapons, not spells.

[Aharon]

@Linebackeru
Actually, since summoned monsters are spell effects, one could argue that the damage they cause isn't subject to damage resistance, either. I have not ruled so till now, but it would indeed be consistent with what the actual rules say about Black Tentacles.

[hamishspence]

Some psionic powers are explicitly called out as not ignoring DR when they have a damage type like "piercing".

I don't know if there's a rule like that for spells though.

[Keld Denar]

Some spells likewise are affected by DR. Ring of Blades and Cloud of Knives both call out the fact that they are typed physical damage and subject to DR. I'd say that as precident, if a spell doesn't include that verbage, its not subject to DR.

[Douglas]

I'd say RAI seems pretty obvious that anything that bothers to specify a physical damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) automatically by implication is subject to DR because DR penetration is by far the most common reason to care about that detail. The non-DR reasons for B/P/S type to matter are so rare, particularly in combination with damage dealt by spells, that they are not plausible reasons for the writer to have bothered to specify damage type.

RAW may not be quite so sensible.

[Tehnar]

I always ruled it that DR doesn't apply to non specified spell damage. TO specific damage type such as blunt DR applies.

[Claudius Maximus]

DR obviously doesn't apply to grappling damage. Haven't you ever heard of the Nemean Lion?

[Aharon]

@Claudius
You're the second poster to state this. Where can this rule be found? Or is it some kind of joke I don't get?:smallconfused:

[Angry Bob]

The Nemean lion was a lion whose skin could not be broken by any weapon. Hercules strangled it to death.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Grappling damage is typically bludgeoning, which gets reduced by DR the same as any other physical attack. Spells are specifically stated as a source that creatures with DR take normal damage from (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)):

"A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below."

Black Tentacles is a Conjuration (Creation), so the damage is caused directly by the spell. Creatures which are the result of a Conjuration (Summoning) or Conjuration (Calling) get their damage reduced by DR normally, as their damage is cause indirectly by the spell. If the spell itself deals the damage, it ignores DR; if the spell summons a creature, and that creature then deals damage, DR applies.

[Aharon]

@Angry Bob
Thanks for the explanation with the Nemean Lion. I remembered it was some lion Hercules fought, but I had no idea what it had to do with grappling.

@Biffonacius
Do you have a source for the part on summoned monsters being subject to DR? It seemed logical for me, but the distinction between the (physical) tentacle and a summoned monster actually became less clear when I considered it. Summoned monsters share a lot of attributes with other spell effects - they can be dispelled and they don't work in antimagic fields, for example.

[Keld Denar]

So...basically, for 99+% of spells, if it would break Invisibility, its not subject to DR. If it wouldn't break Invisibility, it would be subject to DR.

Surprisingly accurate...

[Shadowbite]

So here is the situation that happened and why I am asking the question. My party and I were fighting an Erinyes Devil (DR 5/good) and my character the Dread Necromancer casts Evard's Black Tentacles to stop her, after which my Quasit familiar (DR 5/good or Cold Iron) flies in invisibly and try to attack her with his poisoned claws (I didn't know that Erinyes are immune to poison). And then proceeds to get caught by the spell.

So are you guys saying that both of them would have taken full damage from the tentacles and DR wouldn't have applied at all?

Also the sorcerer then also casts Evard's Black Tentacles. Can you even overlap that spell with another casting (someone caught in both tentacle spells at the same time). And would they then take individual damage from each one?

[ffone]

Hercules probably asphyxiated the lion rather than dealing grappling damage.

I have seen clever players do this to kill trolls when they lacked the fire/acid resources. Knock it out, fill its gullet with rocks and water, etc.

[Cyrion]

So here is the situation that happened and why I am asking the question. My party and I were fighting an Erinyes Devil (DR 5/good) and my character the Dread Necromancer casts Evard's Black Tentacles to stop her, after which my Quasit familiar (DR 5/good or Cold Iron) flies in invisibly and try to attack her with his poisoned claws (I didn't know that Erinyes are immune to poison). And then proceeds to get caught by the spell.

So are you guys saying that both of them would have taken full damage from the tentacles and DR wouldn't have applied at all?

Also the sorcerer then also casts Evard's Black Tentacles. Can you even overlap that spell with another casting (someone caught in both tentacle spells at the same time). And would they then take individual damage from each one?

Yes, they both should have taken full damage.

Overlapping this spell wouldn't add any benefit except extend the duration if the sorcerer's spell duration would exceed the first casting. When you cast spells like this you're creating an area that has the given effect on people in it. There are lots of tentacles, but you only make one grapple check on the attack. If they could overlap, you'd make a grapple check for each tentacle.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Casting the same spell twice in the same area would indeed make two instances of that spell effect. For some spells this would not be the case, such as Entangle cast twice would not cause the current vegetation to be twice as hindering, but a second Black Tentacles spell would create a second field of tentacles within the first, and creatures would be grappled as though by two creatures, thus to escape they would have to beat two grapple checks if grabbed by both spells, and they would take damage on each caster's turn for their spell's tentacles.

[Douglas]

So are you guys saying that both of them would have taken full damage from the tentacles and DR wouldn't have applied at all?
By strict RAW, yes.

By what I am almost completely certain is RAI, both creatures' DR should apply fully - why else would the designer have bothered to specify that it's bludgeoning?

[CyMage]

By what I am almost completely certain is RAI, both creatures' DR should apply fully - why else would the designer have bothered to specify that it's bludgeoning?

Because it doesn't make sense for them to be slashing?

[Grelna the Blue]

Hercules probably asphyxiated the lion rather than dealing grappling damage.

I have seen clever players do this to kill trolls when they lacked the fire/acid resources. Knock it out, fill its gullet with rocks and water, etc.

I made a grapplemonster character once in a party in which no one knew anything whatsoever about trolls. The first troll we encountered he charged and grappled (his default tactic) and when it refused to die he bent and tied its limbs into a knot and used a length of rope to hang the resultant trollball piñata from a tree. We left it there.