What Level is Miko?

[Hawkfrost000]

so what level is Miko anyway?

464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)
465 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)

we know redcloak is about 17th level and Miko has fewer hit dice than him because when they were both at ground zero of the gate implosion (explosion? rupture? whatever). redcloak survived but was badly injured and Miko was killed.

but the question is just how many hit dice higher is he?

[suszterpatt]

Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) puts her at 14-16 based on number of attacks per round.


Btw, it wasn't the explosion that almost killed Redcloak, it was Soon's ghost. In fact, 463 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) shows Xykon and Redcloak flying away as the explosion happens.

[dps]

Yeah, the fact that Redcloak wasn't in the throne room when it exploded, so his survival tells us nothing about his level relative to Miko's.

[Zevox]

we know redcloak is about 17th level
No, we do not. The most concrete info we have on Redcloak's level is that he can cast 8th-level spells, which pegs him at level 15+. We haven't seen anything to indicate he is level 17 or higher.

Zevox

[Zmflavius]

No, we do not. The most concrete info we have on Redcloak's level is that he can cast 8th-level spells, which pegs him at level 15+. We haven't seen anything to indicate he is level 17 or higher.

Zevox

Well, Belkar says that he thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) Redcloak is probably 17th level.

Of course, he also was delirious and there's no real factual basis.

[Acero]

Miko states Hinjo is the second highest level Paladin. Hinjo also states that Lien and O-Chul have gained a few levels, and implies they could be higher level than him. So unless Miko is Better than everyone else by a mile, she cannot be incredibly high level.

Well we know she has less than 14 Paladin Levels for one. She never casts Holy Sword, which even Miko would be smart enough to use if avialable. She has Evasion, so at least 2 Monk levels. So saying she's level 14-16 wouldn't be far off.

[veti]

Well we know she has less than 14 Paladin Levels for one. She never casts Holy Sword, which even Miko would be smart enough to use if avialable.

Doesn't follow - she may not have high enough WIS. In fact, based on her actions...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Doesn't follow - she may not have high enough WIS. In fact, based on her actions...

Personally, I would think a lack of wisdom on Miko's part would of been made as a joke that she, of course, wouldn't of understood and would simly state the clear facts that make it hilarious to everyone else. Though, I admit this has no basis. It just seem to be a trend that characters with low stats have them not only overblown in there ineffectivness but other characters and sometimes the character themselves breaks the fourth wall to state that X stat is low in some humourous way.

[zimmerwald1915]

Personally, I would think a lack of wisdom on Miko's part would of been made as a joke that she, of course, wouldn't of understood and would simly state the clear facts that make it hilarious to everyone else. Though, I admit this has no basis. It just seem to be a trend that characters with low stats have them not only overblown in there ineffectivness but other characters and sometimes the character themselves breaks the fourth wall to state that X stat is low in some humourous way.
This happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)

[factotum]

Miko states Hinjo is the second highest level Paladin. Hinjo also states that Lien and O-Chul have gained a few levels, and implies they could be higher level than him. So unless Miko is Better than everyone else by a mile, she cannot be incredibly high level.


I'm not sure I follow the logic, but even if we go with your conclusion, what's to say that Miko WASN'T a much higher level than everyone else? Don't forget, she utterly trounced Hinjo even after she'd lost her Paladin powers *and* been injured in the fight with Roy, and that was in a straight-up sword fight where her Monk abilities didn't come into play--that suggests she must have been a good few levels higher than him at that point, and therefore even MORE levels ahead of everyone else.

(One could possibly argue that O-Chul was actually higher level than Hinjo on the grounds that most of his levels are in Fighter, so in terms of Paladin powers he would be a long way beneath Miko's attention...no idea if there's any truth to that, though).

[G-Man Graves]

(One could possibly argue that O-Chul was actually higher level than Hinjo on the grounds that most of his levels are in Fighter, so in terms of Paladin powers he would be a long way beneath Miko's attention...no idea if there's any truth to that, though).

I would actually agree with this one. O'Chul has ridiculously high Constitution, and even if he rolled a natural 18 at first level, he would have to have quite a few additional points in there, implying he's hit a multiple of 4 several times.

[veti]

I would actually agree with this one. O'Chul has ridiculously high Constitution, and even if he rolled a natural 18 at first level, he would have to have quite a few additional points in there, implying he's hit a multiple of 4 several times.

Well, my theory is that he's got a racial bonus to CON on account of being a half-dwarf...

Okay, so that's pretty speculative. But what isn't, in this thread?

[MesiDoomstalker]

This happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)

This proves nothing about Miko's Wisdom score. It is heavily implied that Belkar has a wisdom penalty. I'm pretty sure its speciffically stated but I'm not sure where. And since Miko had 1 rank in Survival, all she had to do was have a wisdom score that was at least 2 points above Belkar's, which could still be a penalty or 10. Remember that Holy Sword needs at least a 14 wisdom to use. So she could have anywhere between 8-13 if we assume Belkar's wisdom is in the 6-7. Even if Belkars wisdom is 9, the range could still be 10-13. I agree that Miko would be smart enough to use Holy Sword if she could.

[suszterpatt]

"I have 4 ranks and an ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) regarding Profession (Gourmet Chef), which is WIS based.

[Renegade Paladin]

"I have 4 ranks and an ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) regarding Profession (Gourmet Chef), which is WIS based.

Which creates a rules impossibility, since we know that owl's wisdom gives him a Wisdom score of at least 14, enabling him to cast cure serious wounds from a scroll, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) and I seriously doubt he has the requisite minimum modifier of +9 in UMD to do it otherwise.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Which creates a rules impossibility, since we know that owl's wisdom gives him a Wisdom score of at least 14, enabling him to cast cure serious wounds from a scroll, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) and I seriously doubt he has the requisite minimum modifier of +9 in UMD to do it otherwise.

Actually, you only need wisdom 13 to cast cure serious wounds, that means Belkar has to have a wisdom 9.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Which creates a rules impossibility, since we know that owl's wisdom gives him a Wisdom score of at least 14, enabling him to cast cure serious wounds from a scroll, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) and I seriously doubt he has the requisite minimum modifier of +9 in UMD to do it otherwise.


Actually, you only need wisdom 13 to cast cure serious wounds, that means Belkar has to have a wisdom 9.

Niether are true. The incident with the Owl's Wisdom was back before Rich was being serious. It was done purely for the rule of funny. It wasn't till later that he started to become serious and, for that matter consistent.


Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.
UPDATE: In the wake of another debate about this, two schools of thought have risen, regarding whether a Ranger needs 13 or 14 wisdom to cast the spell. Based on various readings of the rules from the SRD, Wizards.com and Splat Books, it is possible to see different meanings. In the interest of not alienating fellow geeks, the assumption, until explicit confirmation from either Wizards or Rich about which is correct, will be that that funny and plot trumps the rules.

This stops the arguement about the scroll. And it also points out how more recent comics trump older ones. Especially those that are from the first book,.

[Swordpriest]

Niether are true. The incident with the Owl's Wisdom was back before Rich was being serious. It was done purely for the rule of funny. It wasn't till later that he started to become serious and, for that matter consistent.


Yes, I've heard it said that strip #100 was about the moment when he started planning the whole story. Started planning, mind you -- things were probably still in flux for a while after that as well, since getting everything "squared away" in a story this big is quite a project and requires some time.

And, IMO, Rule of Funny trumps RAW even now, on occasion -- leading people into very interesting and amusing arguments about things which are actually non-issues. :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

And, IMO, Rule of Funny trumps RAW even now, on occasion -- leading people into very interesting and amusing arguments about things which are actually non-issues. :smallamused:

Yeah, I think for the 1st story arc, it was jokes before plot, plot before rules, and after the 1st arc, it's plot before jokes, jokes before rules.

[Samurai Jill]

so what level is Miko anyway?
'Bout six feet under, ah reckon. Unless the ever-popular* raised-by-Tsukiko theory turns out to hold water.

* Only known, let alone advocated by, a minute fraction of the desperately obsessive.