Polymorph Spells, Bite of the Were- Spells, and Combat

[Elric VIII]

I'm currently blaying a Transmuter gish and I am using Alter Self and the Bite of the Wererat spell (no actual Polymorph yet) and my DM has not put any restrictions on the things into which I may transform. I would like to keep it that way, so I will be trying to restrain myself to core MM stuff(this also limits the amount of books I need to bring). I have a few questions about the use of these spells.

1.) When using Alter Self to transform into a Troglodyte, I gain 1 bite and 2 claws. If I am wielding a 1-handed weapon, can I attack with the weapon, 1 claw and 1 bite?

2) If I am allowed to use Polymorph, are the Bite of the Were- spells useful or are they simply mechanically inferior to it?

3.) Some of the Bite of the Were- spell say that my hands turn into claws. Can I still maipulate weapons/items and perform somatic components?

4.) Polymorph says that equipment melds into your new form if it is unusable, can I choose to have a piece of equipment meld into my from even if it is usable (ex - I don't want to use my weapon and don't want to drop it)?

5.) Can the Bite of the Were- Spells stack with Polymorph/Alter Self?

[Keld Denar]

1) Yes. A little something from yours truely. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

2) The bonuses for BotWereX spells are enhancement, and they would persist through Polymorph. You would lose the natural weapons you gain though. Still, its nice to get those bonuses without worrying about your bonuses from gear melding into your body.

3) Clawed hands can manipulate components and cast spells. I mean, Kobolds and Lizardfolk can do it. Unless the source of the claws explicitly states that you can't do something, you can pretty much assume that humanoids with claws can do anything hands can do.

4) Rules don't cover this. I would assume you could though.

[Elric VIII]

Thank you.

[Keld Denar]

5) Depends on what you mean by stacking. Polymorph and spells of that subschool change your physical stats. Your Str score is not that of Melvin the Magnificent, its that of generic troglodyte #34251543. This isn't a boost to your score (X + A), this is rewritting your score (Y) that has no relationship to the base. Bite of the Werecreature gives you an enhancement bonus to your score. This enhancement would apply to whatever base score you have at the moment (so... Y + A essentially).

The natural attacks, however, generally won't stack. If you have a bite attack and you gain a bite attack from another source, you generally just use whichever value of bite is higher. Likewise, if you already have claws, and you gain claws, the claws you use are the highest value. Example: Say you have a 1d8 bite attack from some source. You cast a spell that gives you a 2d6 bite attack. You get 1 bite attack that deals 2d6 damage, not 2 bite attacks that do 1d8 and 2d6 respectively. You only have one mouth, and if its too busy "wielding" your bite, it can't make another bite.

[Elric VIII]

5) Depends on what you mean by stacking. Polymorph and spells of that subschool change your physical stats. Your Str score is not that of Melvin the Magnificent, its that of generic troglodyte #34251543. This isn't a boost to your score (X + A), this is rewritting your score (Y) that has no relationship to the base. Bite of the Werecreature gives you an enhancement bonus to your score. This enhancement would apply to whatever base score you have at the moment (so... Y + A essentially).

This is what I meant, and it answers my question.

[faceroll]

Note that the Bite of X line nixes your ability to make additional attacks after your BAB is +6 or higher. So if you turn into a hydra and cast bite of X, you're only getting 3 attacks at the most.

[Keld Denar]

How do you figure? Natural attacks function on a completely different spectrum than iteratives. Read the guide I linked above (and cowrote, uncoincidentally).

Yes, you can't make iterative attacks with natural attacks, but there are two flaws in the statement you made:

A) Hydra bites are natural weapons as well, so Bite of the WereX wouldn't interfere with them even if you WERE right about them interfering with iteratives.

B) Just because you cast Bite of the WereX to gain claws and a bite doesn't mean you can't still make iterative attacks. You could hold a weapon in one clawed hand and make melee attacks, then make your other natural weapons as secondary natural weapons, or you could wield a weapon that doesn't require a hand such as armor spikes or your unarmed strike, and make full iteratives plus full natural attacks.

[faceroll]

How do you figure? Natural attacks function on a completely different spectrum than iteratives. Read the guide I linked above (and cowrote, uncoincidentally).

Yes, you can't make iterative attacks with natural attacks, but there are two flaws in the statement you made:

A) Hydra bites are natural weapons as well, so Bite of the WereX wouldn't interfere with them even if you WERE right about them interfering with iteratives.

B) Just because you cast Bite of the WereX to gain claws and a bite doesn't mean you can't still make iterative attacks. You could hold a weapon in one clawed hand and make melee attacks, then make your other natural weapons as secondary natural weapons, or you could wield a weapon that doesn't require a hand such as armor spikes or your unarmed strike, and make full iteratives plus full natural attacks.

From the text of Bite of the WereX:
"If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks."

While it may be intended for iteratives from BAB, what the RAW there actually says is you get a claw claw bite, and that's it.

[Keld Denar]

Thats complete BS. That line is a descriptive clause that describes the previous statement, the one about giving you the natural weapons. You don't get extra attacks with THOSE weapon. It doesn't restrict you from making attacks with OTHER weapons, natural or otherwise.

[faceroll]

Thats complete BS. That line is a descriptive clause that describes the previous statement, the one about giving you the natural weapons. You don't get extra attacks with THOSE weapon. It doesn't restrict you from making attacks with OTHER weapons, natural or otherwise.

Yet it doesn't say any of that, it simply specifies that if BAB >= +6, you don't get additional attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Which, again, is a descriptive clause. Don't read it in a vacuum, read it with the rest of the sentances. That sentance describes the previous one, reminding the player that the natural weapons they gain from the spell do not gain additional attacks from a high BAB, just like every other natural weapon. It does not create a new rule. Period.

[Andion Isurand]

I agree with Keld here, its just 'poorly' restating the rules for natural weapons.

However, when it comes to the Bite spells, they could have used more text to describe how it interacts with other spells that grant natural weapons, esepcially when it comes to primary/secondary natural weapons... and how much of your strength modifier to add to damage with each natural attack when you have more than one natural weapon... or when your primary natural weapon changes.

There is also instances where you take a form using a polymoprh effect that already has more than 2 claws or more than 1 bite... do they all get modified by an existing bite spell if the base damage of the bite spell is greater?

[Douglas]

There is also instances where you take a form using a polymoprh effect that already has more than 2 claws or more than 1 bite... do they all get modified by an existing bite spell if the base damage of the bite spell is greater?
I think the strict RAW behavior is that you gain the Bite spell's natural attacks in addition to whatever you already had. Cast the whole series once each, and you end up with a ridiculous attack routine of 3 or 4 bites and half a dozen or more claws, with several different sets of damage dice, despite only having one mouth and two upper limbs.

Ridiculous, of course, and I've only ever seen it ruled that way in a particular arena that made a major point of sticking to RAW as much as possible (Pun-pun and thought bottles were banned, but abuse had to at least approach that level before the DMs would even consider banning something for being overpowered), but who ever said RAW had to make sense?

[Keld Denar]

I addressed most of this above.

The natural attacks, however, generally won't stack. If you have a bite attack and you gain a bite attack from another source, you generally just use whichever value of bite is higher. Likewise, if you already have claws, and you gain claws, the claws you use are the highest value. Example: Say you have a 1d8 bite attack from some source. You cast a spell that gives you a 2d6 bite attack. You get 1 bite attack that deals 2d6 damage, not 2 bite attacks that do 1d8 and 2d6 respectively. You only have one mouth, and if its too busy "wielding" your bite, it can't make another bite.

To further expound on your questions...say you polymorphed into an Ettin. Ettins have 2 heads, and thus could make 2 bites. Bite of the Werebear only gives you one bite attack though, so you'd only have one even though you have 2 heads. If you cast it again, you could probably gain another bite since you have another head to "wield" it. I use "quotes" because I don't have a better word. You technically aren't wielding it, in a traditional sense, but it is taking up a slot, just the same as a sword held in a clawed hand is taking up that claw attack slot.

Another example: If you have 2 claws (example, Kobold with web enhancement), and you gained 2 more claws (example, Draconic Claws soulmeld), you'd use your natural claw damage or the soulmeld damage, whichever is greater. You wouldn't have 4 claws, as your hands would be too busy clawing with one set of claws to make claw attacks with the other set, just the same as you couldn't make claw attacks if you were holding a pair of short swords in those clawed hands. Thus, natural weapons gained where you already have weapons simply overlap, rather than stack, so to speak.

[Andion Isurand]

I also made a few of my own bite spells that can be found in my homebrew.

[Elric VIII]

From the text of Bite of the WereX:
"If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks."

While it may be intended for iteratives from BAB, what the RAW there actually says is you get a claw claw bite, and that's it.

I agree. I also make those damn Monks take the well deserved penalty for not being proficient with unarmed strikes. :smalltongue:


I addressed most of this above.


To further expound on your questions...say you polymorphed into an Ettin. Ettins have 2 heads, and thus could make 2 bites. Bite of the Werebear only gives you one bite attack though, so you'd only have one even though you have 2 heads. If you cast it again, you could probably gain another bite since you have another head to "wield" it. I use "quotes" because I don't have a better word. You technically aren't wielding it, in a traditional sense, but it is taking up a slot, just the same as a sword held in a clawed hand is taking up that claw attack slot.

I didn't even think of this, but that looks like a very good analysis fo the interaction.


Another example: If you have 2 claws (example, Kobold with web enhancement), and you gained 2 more claws (example, Draconic Claws soulmeld), you'd use your natural claw damage or the soulmeld damage, whichever is greater. You wouldn't have 4 claws, as your hands would be too busy clawing with one set of claws to make claw attacks with the other set, just the same as you couldn't make claw attacks if you were holding a pair of short swords in those clawed hands. Thus, natural weapons gained where you already have weapons simply overlap, rather than stack, so to speak.

Are you sure about the way that incarnum workes with natural attacks? Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, Totemist builds that end up having 10+ natural attacks per full attack mention wanting a race with its own natural attacks.


I also made a few of my own bite spells that can be found in my homebrew.

I like Bite of the Werefox.

[Keld Denar]

Are you sure about the way that incarnum workes with natural attacks? Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, Totemist builds that end up having 10+ natural attacks per full attack mention wanting a race with its own natural attacks.

The problem with most natural attack builds...most people don't know how natural attacks work, and how they interact with each other. Think about it...if you have a clawed hand, and you hold a short sword in that hand, the hand is incapable of making claw attacks, right? Now, replace the words "short sword" with "claw", and the rules are identical. If you are attacking with clawed hands, your hands are too busy clawing to claw someone. Its the same thing. This is supported by most rules text.


<snip> If you already have claw attacks, use either your normal claw damage or the damage given for this soulmeld, whichever is higher.

Now, some soulmelds, like Landshark Boots and Lamia Belt, give you claws on your feet, which wouldn't interfere with claws on your hands, but pretty much a limb is limited to one attack of a certain type.

Otherwise, stacking Girallon Arms with Claws of the Wyrm and Sphinx Claws to get 8 claw attacks is deliberate misreading of the rules.

[Elric VIII]

The problem with most natural attack builds...most people don't know how natural attacks work, and how they interact with each other. Think about it...if you have a clawed hand, and you hold a short sword in that hand, the hand is incapable of making claw attacks, right? Now, replace the words "short sword" with "claw", and the rules are identical. If you are attacking with clawed hands, your hands are too busy clawing to claw someone. Its the same thing. This is supported by most rules text.


Now, some soulmelds, like Landshark Boots and Lamia Belt, give you claws on your feet, which wouldn't interfere with claws on your hands, but pretty much a limb is limited to one attack of a certain type.

Otherwise, stacking Girallon Arms with Claws of the Wyrm and Sphinx Claws to get 8 claw attacks is deliberate misreading of the rules.

That does seem reasonable. Thank you for the explaination.