Revising Beguiler spell list

[DEMON]

Hi all,

First of all, I am aware that being a spontaneous caster and knowing all the spells on their spell list, adding more spells to their spell list can make the Beguiler class unbalanced and that the Advanced Learning is to be used for cherry picking the gems from the splatbooks but... I just don´t buy it. I simply consider it unfair for the Beguiler, who specializes in messing with peoples heads with use of Illusions and Enchantments, if a Wizard can (in theory) have 100 more Illusion and Enchantment spells. On the other hand, I also think, that a spell (or spells) can be found on Beguilers spell list, that does not belong there thematically.

That´s right. The point of this whole excercise is not to drastically imbalance the class, nor to list the spells that would benefit it the most, but to identify spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list as well as the Bard spell list, that would fit the Beguiler concept well (please note that these spells don´t have to be just from the Enchantment or Illusion schools... any school is okay (though especially Evocation and Necromancy seems way off), but there should always be a valid reason provided as to why you believe they would fit) and also the other way around - define spells that you feel should be scratched from Beguilers list and reasons why. This, of course, does not have to be on a 1:1 basis.

So try to imagine that the Beguiler does not have the Advanced Learning class feature, but you are able to modify his spell list a bit. What to add, what to remove...? This is more of a thought exercise than a real class redux, but I am interested in what you think the theme/concept/role for a Beguiler really is and what spells (from all splatbooks and other official sources) fit it the best.

For example, I feel all the "Power Words" should be present on the list (not just all from PHB, as it is now, but also those presented in Races of the Dragon) as I believe they "fit the theme" well. On the other hand, I consider the Illusion (Shadow) spells out of place (for me, Beguiler is mostly about deceiving people, not creating quasi-real monsters and some such) - so that would mean bye-bye Legion of Sentinels and barred door for Shadow X-ation (and thus no way to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage with just his class features, by the way).

Your turn, dear reader...

[Vladislav]

Hi all,
I simply consider it unfair for the Beguiler, who specializes in messing with peoples heads with use of Illusions and Enchantments, if a Wizard can (in theory) have 100 more Illusion and Enchantment spells.
It's also unfair that Clerics and Druids can (in theory, and actually in practice too) be better at melee combat than Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins. Silly overpowered Tier 1 classes are Tier 1. Don't use them as reference, for that way lies madness.

[Land Outcast]

It's also unfair that Clerics and Druids can (in theory, and actually in practice too) be better at melee combat than Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins. Silly overpowered Tier 1 classes are Tier 1. Don't use them as reference, for that way lies madness.Must... refrain... from QFT...

Damn, I lost.

But I also have something to add:

You want a spell list which declares that the "Beguiler is mostly about deceiving people, not creating quasi-real monsters and some such". It's ok, just not necessarily what the actual class is about: the beguler in my group is having great fun -they are level 7-, while he is a bit let down by only being able to do damage through whelm he is thrilled with "battlefield contol" in and outside combat.

[DEMON]

It's also unfair that Clerics and Druids can (in theory, and actually in practice too) be better at melee combat than Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins. Silly overpowered Tier 1 classes are Tier 1. Don't use them as reference, for that way lies madness.

Fair enough. Though that was not the actual point of this thread, just a point-er :smallwink: (not the dog).
With dozens of thematically relevant spells available in splatbooks, being able to select 5 doesn´t cut it for some of us (or perhaps just for me).
And while I believe that adding spells like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration might benefit the PC more, than, let´s say Tasha's Hideous Laughter, I believe the latter spell fits the character concept a lot more. For me, that is. Different takes on the Beguiler role and spells (bene)fitting this role are what this thread should be about. Try not to at it too much from the balancing point of view and a bit more from the... well... role-playing one.


You want a spell list which declares that the "Beguiler is mostly about deceiving people, not creating quasi-real monsters and some such".

I don´t... okay, well maybe *I* do, but I am more interested in what other people think about the various spells out there in relation to this class. Imagine you are reading the New Spells section of any splatbook out there and notice a spell that makes you think "This definitely *should* have been on the beguilers spell list". That´s what I´m looking for in here - What, if anything would you like to change about the class´spell list?


the beguler in my group is having great fun -they are level 7-, while he is a bit let down by only being able to do damage through whelm he is thrilled with "battlefield contol" in and outside combat.

Good for him. Good for anyone playing any class, if they´re having fun doing it - that means they are doing it right (well, if they are not preventing other players and DM from having fun as well, that is :smallsmile: ). Nowhere in my post have I stated that Beguiler, as is, is unfun to play. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[faceroll]

You can always pick up arcane disciple and versatile spellcaster to 1) add 9 spells to your spell list and 2) be able to cast those spells more than once per day. Unfortunately requires you to not dump wisdom.

[DEMON]

You can always pick up arcane disciple and versatile spellcaster to 1) add 9 spells to your spell list and 2) be able to cast those spells more than once per day. Unfortunately requires you to not dump wisdom.

Come ooooon... :smallconfused: It is true that there is a plethora of ways to add new spells to your spell list (trough items like Knowstones and Runestaffs, feats like the one you mentioned or the bloodline feats, prestige classes like Rainbow Servant, Spellcraft Mage, Prestige Bard...).
But for the purpose of this thread, let´s just stick to the actual revision of the spell list. Picking a theme (or purpose, if you wish) for the Beguiler (as it is now) and incorporating spells from various (official) sources supplementing the theme/purpose/concept viably. Diminishing the classes weaknesses, diversifying it´s abilities and so on is a whole different story.

[Thurbane]

Speaking for myself, I always found the Beguiler's spell list to be far and away the best of the three spontaneous casters that know their whole list (Warmage and Dread Necro). Beguilers virtually have a spell for every eventually, short of direct damage.

If anything, I think some of the less Illusion/Enchantment based spells could probably come off their list: Haste, Solid Fog, Legion of Sentinels etc.

Beguilers are actually on the semi-banned list of classes in our group - we've had two in our games, and their vast versatility has made some adventures and absolute cakewalk. The ability to spam Confusion at groups of melee oriented foes can make a lot of combats a case of sit back and watch. They have spells to pass virtually any obstacle outside of combat, and they have basically all of the skills of a Rogue to boot.

Anyway, outside of that rant, if you want to change their spell list thematically, maybe concentrate more on Enchantments and Illusions, and less of Transmutations and Conjurations.

[Akal Saris]

I think their list is quite solid thematically, actually. The only real change I would make would be to remove Power Word, Kill and replace it with Weird or Programmed Amnesia from SpC.

Some other SpC spells that could be added to the list, or perhaps you could trade a core beguiler spell on a 1:1 basis for one of these:

L1
-Distract
-Insightful Feint
-Distract Assailant
-Serene Visage

L2
-Entice Gift
-Delusions of Grandeur

L3
-Unluck
-Mesmerizing Glare
-Suspended Silence

L4
-Treasure Scent

L5
-Illusory Feast

L6
-Probe Thoughts
-Mass Reflective Disguise
-Illusory Pit

L7

L8
-Maddening Whispers
-Superior Invisibility

L9
-Programmed Amnesia

[Sith_Happens]

On page 3-4 of the Spell Compendium there's a section "Other Spellcasting Classes," which gives advice on adding SpC spells to non-PHB classes. For the Warmage (the closest analogue to the Beguiler that it mentions specifically) it recommends replacing spells rather than adding them because of the whole limited-spell-list-being-the-balancing-point thing, which is not what you're going for. For the Healer (which is along the same lines as the Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer), however, it recommends adding any spells that fit the class's existing theme, especially higher level version of the spells it already gets. You could use that same suggestion for the Beguiler (or the Warmage or Dread Necromancer), but you might not want to go overboard.

[Kobold Esq]

I just want beguilers to get mage hand. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

(Ditto warlocks, by the way)

[Thurbane]

For the Healer (which is along the same lines as the Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer), however, it recommends adding any spells that fit the class's existing theme, especially higher level version of the spells it already gets.
Healers are a lot more like Clerics than Beguilers. They have to memorize from a class list - they aren't spontaneous (although a lot of people houserule them to be).

[MammonAzrael]

I'm kinda on the same page as Thurbane...I've always thought they have an excellent spell list, and the other two casters could use the expanded lists more.

And if you really feel like they need more spells, take 10 levels of Rainbow Servant and put clerics to shame. :smallsmile:

[DEMON]

The only real change I would make would be to remove Power Word, Kill and replace it with Weird or Programmed Amnesia from SpC.

Some other SpC spells that could be added to the list, or perhaps you could trade a core beguiler spell on a 1:1 basis for one of these:

*list of spells*

Excellent choices, thank you for your contribution.


I'm kinda on the same page as Thurbane...I've always thought they have an excellent spell list, and the other two casters could use the expanded lists more.

And if you really feel like they need more spells, take 10 levels of Rainbow Servant and put clerics to shame. :smallsmile:

It´s not that I think they need more spells, it´s more like I believe that their spell list, being fully composed by spells from PHB 1+2, could use a revision when additional splatbooks with their share of new spells come into consideration. Just in order to highlight their (relatively) narrow specialization.

Workarounds like Rainbow servant and some such, that drastically change the focus of the character (or at least provide the means to change it if desired), tend to approach the matter in a completely different way.

[begooler]

I think that if I were to change the beguilers spell list, what I would give players is several sets of spell lists to choose from, and they would get only one of those. Each list would have spells for a different type of beguiler play style.

For example:

A list that specializes in charming, enchanting, influencing, confusing, dominating, or otherwise controlling the actions of other creatures in or out of combat. In addition to "will save or do X" based spells, this list includes spells that give bonuses to social skills (glibness.)

A list that specializes in creating an advantage for the beguiler in combat, and debuffing or otherwise disadvantaging opponents. Spells that give or interact with sneak attack would be included, as would spells that create effects which knock opponents prone, blind them or otherwise hinder them.
(grease, glitterdust, and colorspray, but not confusion or tasha's hideous laughter for example) Higher level spells would include walls and the like.

A list that specializes in creating figments, phantasms and illusions, as well as summoning monsters that fit this theme. This list focuses on spells that alter reality (or appear to.) Perhaps even spells that transform the beguiler into something it is not, such as polymorph and alter self.

These specialized lists would in some way limit the beguilers versatility, but give them more options within the style that they choose.

[navar100]

I don't agree with your hypothesis that it is wrong for wizards to know more spells in Enchantment and Illusion than beguilers. The desired goal of every wizard is to know every spell in existence. That is the whole point. In practice it doesn't happen, but wizards knowing every spell is what wizards are supposed to do.

Beguilers are a specialized instance of a spellcaster. In comparison to wizards, in exchange for only having a limited subset of spell knowledge the beguiler is given abilities the wizard doesn't have that enhances the beguiler's focus of deceit.

If a player wants a different spell list to fit a character concept, that's fine and should be worked out with the DM, but wanting a "better" spell list just because wizards get to know more should be answered with: "Then play a wizard."

[quiet1mi]

There is nothing that needs to be done to the beguiler... it could be argued to be one of the few balanced classes...

The reason why it finds its way in a Tier 1 party is because it is powered by imagination...

[MammonAzrael]

It´s not that I think they need more spells, it´s more like I believe that their spell list, being fully composed by spells from PHB 1+2, could use a revision when additional splatbooks with their share of new spells come into consideration. Just in order to highlight their (relatively) narrow specialization.

Fair enough. In which case it might be good to specify which books the Beguiler wasn't able to take advantage of. And I would think it would make sense to expand the thread to updating other neglected lists as well, including the dread necromancer, duskblade, and warmage.

[Thurbane]

Fair enough. In which case it might be good to specify which books the Beguiler wasn't able to take advantage of. And I would think it would make sense to expand the thread to updating other neglected lists as well, including the dread necromancer, duskblade, and warmage.
Good idea.

I seem to recall a thread here somewhere where one of the regular posters suggested an updated spell list for Duskblades.

Edit: here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2416523#post2416523).

[MammonAzrael]

Yes, I believe that was a Fax or Saph endeavor from several years ago...a pretty good updated list, I think.

EDIT: Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2030778&postcount=10)

[DEMON]

Fair enough. In which case it might be
good to specify which books the Beguiler wasn't able to take advantage of.

Actually, the Beguiler has his/her spell list composed entirely of PHB and PHB II spells. So it can be said that any spell from Spell Compendium, or setting specific splatbooks (FR, Eberron, Sandstorm...) is not present on the Beguiler spell list.


And I would think it would make sense to expand the thread to updating other neglected lists as well, including the dread necromancer, duskblade, and warmage.

Yes, I think that Warmage and Dread Necromancer, as well as Duskblade are in a similar situation. If I am not mistaken, Dread Necro and Warmage have their spell lists just as limited - all the are either from PHB, or their respective books (Heroes of Horror and Complete Arcane). Same is the case with Duskblade with the exception of several swift variations on the classic PHB spells (these are from SpC).

Though the difference between Duskblade and the other three is the "know all the spells on their spell list" clause, which makes adding spells to Duskblade spell list somehow easier...


Good idea.

I seem to recall a thread here somewhere where one of the regular posters suggested an updated spell list for Duskblades.

And what I am trying to achieve here is something similar to Fax´s contribution to Duskblade´s spell list :smallredface:

[navar100]

Fair enough. In which case it might be good to specify which books the Beguiler wasn't able to take advantage of. And I would think it would make sense to expand the thread to updating other neglected lists as well, including the dread necromancer, duskblade, and warmage.

Oh, that is certainly fair. There must be some spells in Spell Compendium that fit a beguiler. Whether they should just be added to the list or replace some beguiler spells depends on one's personal taste.

[DEMON]

I just want beguilers to get mage hand. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

(Ditto warlocks, by the way)

Indeed, I always felt that this spell and Prestidigitation as well would fit Beguiler spell list just fine. Though it seems that Wizards do not share this opinion, because both the aforementioned spells are from PHB.

[Zuljita]

Though the difference between Duskblade and the other three is the "know all the spells on their spell list" clause, which makes adding spells to Duskblade spell list somehow easier...
that clause is a big deal. dont discount it. Beguilers never have to hunt for scrolls, dont have to plan for what sort of encounters they will face today and because of the number of options on their spell list, they often have more options at a particular spell level than a wizard.
example: a 20th level wizard has (before int) 4 choices for 9th level spells. Making the assumption that he wont prepare the same spell twice, thats all the options he has. This does him no good if the spells he chose at the start of the day dont fit his current needs.
the beguiler has 7 options (8 with advanced learning). they come from a more limited pool but the beguiler can decide, as situations arise, which spells are needed.

[DEMON]

example: a 20th level wizard has (before int) 4 choices for 9th level spells. Making the assumption that he wont prepare the same spell twice, thats all the options he has. This does him no good if the spells he chose at the start of the day dont fit his current needs.
the beguiler has 7 options (8 with advanced learning). they come from a more limited pool but the beguiler can decide, as situations arise, which spells are needed.

Not entirely true. By leaving some slots open, the Wizard can adjust his daily alotment of spells almost on the fly (by spending 15 minutes). But I will not dispute, that prepared casters have more strategical options, while spontaneous casters have more tactical options.

Though I´d rather avoid any reference to Wizards and other Tier 1 classes as it seems to result in contraproductive responses.

Back on topic: The reason why I tried to avoid the 1:1 spell swapping (the approach advised for Warmages thus compatible with Beguilers and Dread Necros) was that it makes people compare and evaluate all the spells and it tends to break down to mechanical vs. fluff - the "this spell would be nice for my Beguiler every now and then but I wouldn´t want to get rid of any of my current spells for it" kind of thinking.

[dextercorvia]

Do note that they added spells from the SpC to the Duskblade list, so spells from there were at least on the table when they wrote the Beguiler.

[Urpriest]

You'll have to realize that your Beguiler is pretty inconsistent with the normal one.

Example: you want the Beguiler to focus on Enchantment/Illusion, but not on quasi-real Shadows? In D&D that's a contradiction. Shadow spells have been part of the illusion school since the PHB, and the schools are the thematic groupings that spells (in particular arcane spells) are based on. Every illusion-based ability or class in the game is designed with the idea that someone who is good at illusions will be able to use shadow spells, as that's just part of how illusions work thematically. Look at the aforementioned Shadowcraft mage: it powers its abilities on figments, not native shadow spells. That's because figments and shadow spells are supposed to involve the same skills. In order to get rid of this connection, you'd have to go through every single class and feat that involves illusions and split things out.

As for the other odd beguiler spells (Haste for example), I see them as being examples of the beguiler's role as the arcane rogue. A beguiler would not be getting 6+Int skills as a mere Illusionist/Enchanter/Deceiver. A beguiler gets those skills because they are also a trapfinder and sneaker, and they get a few spells that feel more like trapfinder/sneaker spells, like Haste.

I'm not sure if the Dragon-y Power Word spells should fit, but they could. But then, so could the shadow spells from other books, or the enchantments from other books, or... My advice would be to let players trade out spells on their list for reasonably balanced other spells, rather than working off of a master list.

[DEMON]

Do note that they added spells from the SpC to the Duskblade list, so spells from there were at least on the table when they wrote the Beguiler.

If I am not mistaken, you are reffering to the swift versions of "standard" PHB spells. In my opinion they were added because they are straightforward enough to be used w/o actually needing SpC. Or are there any other SpC spells on the Duskblade spell list?


You'll have to realize that your Beguiler is pretty inconsistent with the normal one.

Example: you want the Beguiler to focus on Enchantment/Illusion, but not on quasi-real Shadows? In D&D that's a contradiction. Shadow spells have been part of the illusion school since the PHB, and the schools are the thematic groupings that spells (in particular arcane spells) are based on. Every illusion-based ability or class in the game is designed with the idea that someone who is good at illusions will be able to use shadow spells, as that's just part of how illusions work thematically. Look at the aforementioned Shadowcraft mage: it powers its abilities on figments, not native shadow spells. That's because figments and shadow spells are supposed to involve the same skills. In order to get rid of this connection, you'd have to go through every single class and feat that involves illusions and split things out.

Again, I would like to point out that I am aiming for a more fluff-wise approach, than rules-wise one, when it comes to revising the spell list. In my opinion, Shadow subschool, even though it is part of the Illusion school, is a lot different in its purpose (and even ways it works - it is the only Illusion that creates something (quasi)real, with extradimensional energy being the "building material" for this creation). Your opinion on the matter is different, perfectly viable and based on the actual rules, and that is just fine.

The same argument can be made for Enchantments, for example. While Heroics, Good Hope and Charm Person are all spells from the same school, to me only the last one listed really seems thematically suitable for Beguiler. You could learn those former spells and turn the Beguiler into a somehow decent party buffer, of course, but I don´t feel like that´s what the class is supposed to be going for. Yet another example is Freezing Glance. While really great, for me, the spell does not make sense at all (non-mind-affecting Enchantment with [Cold] descriptor enabling you to make gaze attacks) and I don´t think it belongs to Beguiler spel list.


As for the other odd beguiler spells (Haste for example), I see them as being examples of the beguiler's role as the arcane rogue. A beguiler would not be getting 6+Int skills as a mere Illusionist/Enchanter/Deceiver. A beguiler gets those skills because they are also a trapfinder and sneaker, and they get a few spells that feel more like trapfinder/sneaker spells, like Haste.

Yes, being a rogue with skills supplemented by magic is also a role beguiler excels at. I have also stated in my opening post, that spells from other schools of magic are also fine, when they contribute the Beguiler reasonable. Quite frankly, I can imagine adding spells like Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Grease, Armor Lock to his spell list, too. In the end, it all comes to what each of us (players and/or DMs) feels the Beguilers role should be.


I'm not sure if the Dragon-y Power Word spells should fit, but they could. But then, so could the shadow spells from other books, or the enchantments from other books, or... My advice would be to let players trade out spells on their list for reasonably balanced other spells, rather than working off of a master list.

In fact, removing all of the Power Word spells from the list is also a perfectly fine approach. I was just aiming for consistency (if you put all the PHB Power Words on the spell list, then put all of the Power Word spells from all the sources there... they work the same, after all). If someone feels this group of spells seems kind of weird for the class, then removing all of them is the way to go.

---

I was hoping for a discussion involving various opinions on what the Beguier should be able to do without looking at the character spell list and then deciding what spells are out there that seem right for this kind of character and composing the spell list from these spells. I have also stated the reasoning behind this the spell list as it is now, is limited to spells from just 2 books (and 5 additional spells) which is perfectly fine, and especially welcome for games that only use core (and PHB), but adding more and more splatbooks to the table makes these classes with predetermined spell lists lose on many great spells that would make sense for them to know (again: think fluff).

So far we got some great contributions, like list of Illusion/Enchatment spells that contribute the class reasonably, provided by Akal Saris, suggestion of Mage Hand by Kobold Esq or the interesting idea of various even more specialized spell lists from begooler...
But most of the time it´s either:
a) "don´t fix what ain´t broken" kind of approach (though I wouldn´t call that an approach, it´s more like a position). I understand and accept the fact, that many people think there should be no changes to the class, as it will ruin the balance. I, personally, don´t share this opinion and believe that some revision of the spell list is in place. As I see it, Beguilers spell list, as it is now, is not some kind of final thread holding the Universe together, that messing with it will inevitably lead to the end of the time and space continuum :smalltongue: In my point of view adding a few more "make a will save or X happens" and other spells along these lines really does not change the class´ powerlevel in the slightest. YMMV, of course. As I have said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
b) suggestions of workarounds to broaden the spell list via feets, PrCs and so on, that has really nothing to do with the purpose of this thread - I am not trying to optimaze a character, nor am I trying to make the Beguiler substantially stronger (or weaker, for what it´s worth).

But I am starting to walk in circles with this semi-rant, so I believe it is about time to end this and wait for some new responses.

PS: There are another ways to go for the changes, for example (although I admit this is a kind of stretch), let´s take a quick look at the original spell list:
7 cantrips (let´s call them 1/2-level spells for this anylis)
14 1-level spells
18 2-level spells
20 3-level spells
11 4-level spells
11 5-level spells
8 6-level spells
8 7-level spells
7 8-level spells
6 9-level spells
That´s a total of 426.5 spell levels + 25 spell levels trough 5 Advanced Learning features (considering no dips to postpone the class feature a level and taking the highest level spell possible all the time). So now you have an empty spell list and ~450 levels of spells to fill it spells that would make sense for the class... voila, completely different approach, not a 1:1 swap but not a simple addition either.

Whatever the method, the point stais the same: What spells do you think belong on the list for what they do is in line with what Beguiler is supposed to do and what spells from the current list strike you as odd (and why)?

Or maybe I could compose a list with all the spells *I* think Beguiler should know and you guys will provide comments pro and contra and also add some more...? Does that seem a better approach?

[lightningcat]

I see beguilers as often working as spies and grifters in addition to the role in PH2, and so should have the spells that could assist them in those roles as well.

Lets start with the cantrips. Not that there are a lot of them to deal with.
Current List (school): dancing lights (evoc), daze (ench), detect magic (div), ghost sound (illus), message (trans), open/close (trans), read magic (div)

Possible additions/replacements (school) from PHB: arcane mark (univ), mage hand (trans), prestidigitation (univ)
Possible additions/replacements (school) from SC: caltrops (conj), silent portal (illus), stick (trans)

Of all of these, only silent portal could be taken by advanced learning.

1st Level Spells
Current List (school): charm person (ench), color spray (illus), comprehend languages (div), detect secret doors (div), disguise self (illus), expedious retreat (trans), hypnotism (ench), mage armor (abjur), obscuring mist (conj), rouse* (ench), silent image (illus), sleep (ench), undetectable alignment (abjur), whelm* (ench)

Possible additions/replacements (school) from PHB: magic aura (illus), mount (conj), unseen servent (conj), erase (trans), feather fall (trans), jump (trans), reduce person (trans)
Possible additions/replacements (school) from SC: master's touch (div), spontaneous search (div), distract (div), accelerated movement (trans), cheat (trans), remove scent (trans)

Strange that this class has no low level "get out of jail" spells, or should I say "Run Away".

2nd Level Spells

3rd Level Spells

4th Level Spells

5th Level Spells

6th Level Spells

7th Level Spells

8th Level Spells

9th Level Spells