Greenbound as a +2 metamagic feat.

[Lord.Sorasen]

So, one of the players in my campaign is considering taking greenbound summoning, because his favorite spells are summon nature's ally and entangle.

I hear the feat was meant to be a +2 metamagic feat. So I want to ask, is it still worth it with these penalties (I feel like it is overpowered without this penalties.)? Can a druid spontaneously cast metamagic enhanced summon nature's ally? Is a summon nature's ally I greenbound monster up to the standards of a summon nature's ally III monster (and so on and so forth)? Is the option to summon normal animals a beneficial aspect since the druid spells work for them?

I guess I'll shorten this to 3 questions:

1. Can druids with metamagic spontaneously cast summon nature's ally with metamagic?
2. Is greenbound summoning still a valuable feat if it's a +2 metamagic?
3. Is greenbound summoning still a valuable feat if it's a +2 metamagic feat IF you plan to use it mainly as an entangling tool?

[Glimbur]

1. Can druids with metamagic spontaneously cast summon nature's ally with metamagic?

3. Is greenbound summoning still a valuable feat if it's a +2 metamagic feat IF you plan to use it mainly as an entangling tool?

1) Yep. See: metamagic + sorcerers or bards. Spontaneous spells can work with metamagic, but there are extra hoops to jump through (it's a full round action, which for summons means... nothing)

3)Entangle is a first level druid spell. Why would one spend a higher level spell slot on entangle?

[Lord.Sorasen]

1) Yep. See: metamagic + sorcerers or bards. Spontaneous spells can work with metamagic, but there are extra hoops to jump through (it's a full round action, which for summons means... nothing)

3)Entangle is a first level druid spell. Why would one spend a higher level spell slot on entangle?

1) Alright cool.

3) I was actually thinking about it as useful because while entangle needs to be prepared, Summon nature's Ally can be spontaneously casted. And of course, while entangle was his primary purpose, it would not be the only purpose.

What about the second question? What's its value like as a +2 metamagic feat? How does it compare to summon nature's ally spells of 2 spell levels higher?

[Akal Saris]

I'd say it will likely be pretty balanced if you remove the ability of summons to cast Wall of Thorns. PCs can mitigate metamagic costs with relatively little effort though - with a Ring of Nature's Summons from CC and one of the many -1 metamagic cost feats, you negate the downsides.

A better question might be if you're willing to deal with the PC applying that template to every animal he summons. It changes so many things that it can be quite time consuming unless the PC does so beforehand.

[faceroll]

3)Entangle is a first level druid spell. Why would one spend a higher level spell slot on entangle?

Spend a full round action to summon 1 greenbound wolf. Wolf uses entangle as an SLA for 1 round/lvl until it goes away.

I think +2 is good.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I'd say it will likely be pretty balanced if you remove the ability of summons to cast Wall of Thorns. PCs can mitigate metamagic costs with relatively little effort though - with a Ring of Nature's Summons from CC and one of the many -1 metamagic cost feats, you negate the downsides.

A better question might be if you're willing to deal with the PC applying that template to every animal he summons. It changes so many things that it can be quite time consuming unless the PC does so beforehand.

I'm going to template the ones he wants most first.

But I'm sort of going against the idea of it as a feat without the whole +2 thing.

[Draz74]

I'd say it will likely be pretty balanced if you remove the ability of summons to cast Wall of Thorns. PCs can mitigate metamagic costs with relatively little effort though - with a Ring of Nature's Summons from CC and one of the many -1 metamagic cost feats, you negate the downsides.
Though by the time most metamagic reducers are available, Greenbound starts to have some downsides, as well (i.e. the inability to be targeted by Animal Growth). With the Wall of Thorns removed, you still might not have a problem even with metamagic reducers. (At least, not compared to other game-breaking tricks that can be done with metamagic reducers. :smallamused:)


A better question might be if you're willing to deal with the PC applying that template to every animal he summons. It changes so many things that it can be quite time consuming unless the PC does so beforehand.

Eh, I'm 100% ok with the houserule that says no one (Druids especially) is ever allowed to summon anything without having its stats worked out ahead of time.

[Ionizer]

I'm going to point out that because SNA has a 1-round casting time, spontaneously casting a metamagicked SNA would take two full rounds sorry, re-reading it, it takes 1 round of casting (including all the other combatants turns, where it can disrupted, as normal) and an extra full-round action in the next turn, coming into effect at the end of the Druid's second turn, instead of immediately before the Druid's second turn..

I'm assuming they just forgot that druids could also cast spontaneously when they wrote this passage:


Sorcerers and Bards

Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats

A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I'd say it will likely be pretty balanced if you remove the ability of summons to cast Wall of Thorns. PCs can mitigate metamagic costs with relatively little effort though - with a Ring of Nature's Summons from CC and one of the many -1 metamagic cost feats, you negate the downsides.

A couple things: First off, my campaign is low magic.. Well, low magic item. So I have control of what magic items people can use by the things I place in dungeons. Before you think I'm evil for doing this, realize that the party doesn't really know a lot about D&D, which means they don't know about all the magic items they could get. So I basically help them find good ones, and I somewhat custom tailor the item drops to the party (though sometimes I don't. I like seeing what they'll do.)

And what's more, our druid wants this for various reasons, but not really for power alone. He's a scout/druid without wild shape, and he prefers his magic to make him an awesome hunter/survivor type rather than a real druid by the word. Which is why entangle is a concern. What I'm trying to say is that he generally uses his feats to optimize his scout based archery powers. He views his spellcasting as secondary, even though it's clear to him that it's really a lot better. We're a weird group. We like to search around for really cool things to give characters, but we're not optimizers in the purest sense of it.

I'm leaning towards this being ok as it is. But that thing about the extra full round action... Oh man, that's pretty depressing. I'll see how he feels.