Ultimate Magus + Versatile Spellcaster =?

[faceroll]

How does the third level ability of UM interact with Versatile Spellcaster?

[Tyndmyr]

I would say exactly the way that your cheesy, cheesy heart secretly desires. :smallbiggrin:

[faceroll]

I would say exactly the way that your cheesy, cheesy heart secretly desires. :smallbiggrin:

I'm the DM in this case. :smallfrown:

[imperialspectre]

What Tyndmyr is saying obliquely is that since Versatile Spellcaster allows you to gain a spell slot, you can then use that spell slot to power metamagic per your Ultimate Magus class feature.

Since you can't "chain" Versatile Spellcaster to increase your maximum spell level more than 1 level without a fairly substantial amount of cheese, this combination isn't really one to break a game. In fact, the easiest and most RAW-legal to chain Versatile Spellcaster does not interact well with Ultimate Magus at all.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, he could sacrifice two level 1 spells to get a level two spell which he then sacrifices to add a +2 metamagic for free.

Do note the cap on this ability by class level, though. IIRC, you're capped at affecting spells equal to half your class level, so while he might be able to persist a 5th level spell at the peak of this class, without paying the MM cost, he's not going higher. And the amount of spells he's burning to do this is significant.

While the flavor of cheese is there, it's not that crazy. I'd allow it in my games.

[Douglas]

It doesn't. Versatile Spellcaster does not give you a spell slot, and it does not give you a prepared spell. It takes as input 2 spell slots and gives as output one spell actually cast. The spell you cast using Versatile Spellcaster is never in any form that is compatible with UM's Augmented Casting ability. It goes directly from "spell slots of the wrong level" to "spell taking effect now".

[Tyndmyr]

It doesn't. Versatile Spellcaster does not give you a spell slot, and it does not give you a prepared spell.

I'm pretty certain the wording is "sacrifice a spell or spell slot". It need not actually be prepared, though it could be.

Versatile Spellcaster most definitely gives you a spell.

[Douglas]

It gives you a spell, but the spell is never at any point in a not-yet-cast state. Unless you're really going to argue that an Ultimate Magus can sacrifice the Mage Armor he cast 5 hours ago to fuel this ability too, it doesn't work.

[Firechanter]

Depending on the build, there's not even much to be gained. I have an UM/Demonbinder with a Ring of Wizardry IV. She has just the usual amount of level 1-3 slots, but about 19 level 4 slots. So as metamagic feats I took Quicken and Twin Spell which each are +4 slot feats.

I admit, I was a bit disappointed when I discovered I was not going to cast Quickend and Twin Fire Storms. :/ But exactly that proves that the ability is balanced, being limited to level 5 spells.

[Tyndmyr]

It gives you a spell, but the spell is never at any point in a not-yet-cast state. Unless you're really going to argue that an Ultimate Magus can sacrifice the Mage Armor he cast 5 hours ago to fuel this ability too, it doesn't work.

Metamagic abilities happen during casting of a spell. It's all instant. Therefore, as UMs ability is part of that, it is also instant, and the Versatile Spellcaster produced spell is immediately fed to it as it is produced. Versatile spellcaster gives you a spell to be immediately used, not a spell that is already cast(as your mage armor example). A spell produced with VS still cannot be used in an antimagic field, for instance, and still provokes an AoO if cast in a threatened area like normal. Rule differently, and you actually create more chaos.

[Douglas]

Versatile Spellcaster does not "give you a spell to be immediately used". It explicitly and directly casts a spell, using that exact word.

Exact rules quote:

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

Before you use Versatile Spellcaster, you have two lower level unused spell slots. After you use Versatile Spellcaster, you have one higher level spell that has already been cast. There is no in between step, the feat does a direct conversion.

[Tyndmyr]

And you immediately give up that spell. Not a prepared spell, or a spell slot, but a spell.

Casting takes time, by default. UM's ability is instant. Therefore, it can take effect before the spell is cast.

[Douglas]

UM's ability is only "instant" in that it does not have its own cost separate from the action it is part of. It is part of casting another spell.

Using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a higher level spell takes one action. Casting a spell to be augmented takes another action. Augmenting that spell does not take an additional action, but that doesn't really matter because they're already two separate actions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Starting at 3rd level, you can
choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your
classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know
to a spell cast using another arcane class. (For instance, you
could sacrifice a sorcerer slot to apply a metamagic effect
to a wizard spell.) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just
as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are
actually casting."

You're the DM, so you could rule it as 'a spell' refers to a prepared spell, thus Versatile Spellcaster has no relevance to that ability since it doesn't actually give you any spell slots. Or, you could rule it as Versatile Spellcaster grants you a spell of that level, that spell is lost as if cast costing two lower-level slots, to pay the metamagic cost for this ability.

[Tyndmyr]

You could, if you chose. It wouldn't be utterly ridiculous, but I would suggest offering a retraining of the feat in that instance, since that's probably at least part of why he got it. Still, it's within the spirit of the feat, since his entire use of it is to get more omph at the cost of lower level spell slots in spades.

In any case, it's certain that UM is not intended to refer only to prepared spells, since UM requires a spont and a prepared class, and the ability is written such that either can be sacrificed from or boosted, as is the WoTC online class description.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I was suggesting to rule it as meaning 'sacrifice a [prepared] spell or spell slot' which is probably what they had in mind when writing it.

Versatile Spellcaster is infinitely good in this build even without this trick, since you can use two spontaneous spell slots to cast a spell of one level higher that you've learned via your prepared casting class. That way you can pick up tons of situational spells but never have them prepared because Versatile Spellcaster makes them available as long as you still have spontaneous spell slots.

[Tyndmyr]

Eh, I'd honestly say that it's less important than with a normal wizard without this use. You've already got a spont side, and a ridiculous number of low level slots. If there's anything you have, it's flexibility. You've already got the extra slots to prep situation specific spells.