Totemist: Manticore Belt

[Kantolin]

People say you can get 10-13 attacks from it, and I'm trying to figure out how. This means you're investing 10-13 essentia into it.

Okay, being level 16+ has a cap of 4 essentia. Totemists get +2 to capacity from levels (At 2 and 15). Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is +1 more.

That's 7. 7 is not 10 nor 13. Do people then take levels of incarnate to get the additional expanded capacity? Even that's only 8.

Was 10-13 an exaggeration, or am I missing something?

[Keld Denar]

Doesn't Totemist20 allow you to double the amount of essentia in all of your soulmelds for a short period of time? Maybe that's it?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I believe that rapid shot is what gets you to the 10-14.

[Kantolin]

I feel slightly stupid for both not looking at the 20th level ability, and not contemplating using typical ranged feats. Thanks, that pretty much explains that!

What an awesome soulmeld indeed.

[Arbitrarity]

Rapid Shot... shouldn't affect Manticore Belt, as you can't Full Attack with it.
Usual trick is get a Necklace of Natural Attacks (SS) and enhance with Splitting (CoR) which doubles projectiles at the cost of a +3 enhancement.

[Zaq]

There's also the Incarnum Focus item. Sure, it's bound to your Totem chakra, but it's also occupying a normal chakra, so the Incarnum Focus still applies.

[MeeposFire]

Debatable but you could use the expanded capacity from incarnate to get another point and use an item to get a second extra point.

4 levels+2 totemist+1 incarnate+1 feat+1 item=9 essentia

Using a splitting weapon enchantment you could get 18 attacks (16 without trying to add incarnate) assuming its one attack per point of essentia.

Fully possible also you could invest in ways to get extra standard actions (belt of battle and the like).

[Darth Stabber]

Never underestimate the sheer power of smart itemization for your pc. Now totemist has some odd restrictions on items (due to chakra bindings), but he still has much to gain from stuff. That being said, if you want to take VoP, Incarnate and Totemist are amoung the best candidates. The interference of class features and items can lead to a drastic simplification if items are removed (still not worth it, but the actual book keeping and planning load is reduced enough to in theory give you an argument).

[Arbitrarity]

Debatable but you could use the expanded capacity from incarnate to get another point and use an item to get a second extra point.

4 levels+2 totemist+1 incarnate+1 feat+1 item=9 essentia

Using a splitting weapon enchantment you could get 18 attacks (16 without trying to add incarnate) assuming its one attack per point of essentia.

Fully possible also you could invest in ways to get extra standard actions (belt of battle and the like).

That doesn't work. Carefully perusing the section on Soulmelds reveals that expanded essentia capacities from class features only apply to that class' soulmelds.

[Zaq]

If you get Turn Undead from somewhere, the Divine Soultouch feat can let you increase your essentia cap by one for a round, costing only one turn attempt per go.

Incandescent Champion lets you supercharge your essentia cap for one round a couple times per day, but the opportunity cost of taking IC is kinda prohibitive.

[Person_Man]

Totemist Essentia capacity:

Maximum from Hit Dice: 4
Totemist 2 and 15 class abilities: 2
Bonus from Feat: 1
Bonus from Incarnum Focus magic item: 1
Multiplier from Totemist 20 capstone ability: *2



So that's a maximum of 16 attacks per turn as a standard action, although your capstone can only be used once per day for a number of minutes equal to your Con score (usually long enough to clear a dungeon).

If you can somehow get an Animal Companion or Familiar and take the Share Soulmeld feat, it also gains the benefit of your soulmelds, and essentially doubles your attacks again. But I don't know a way you can do that pre-epic without multiclassing.

Regardless, you should note that the damage is only 1d6 + 1/2 Str and it's a volley attack (Sneak Attack etc only counts for the first attack). So while it's a good option at level 2-4ish, it's generally not worth using beyond that.

[kestrel404]

If you can somehow get an Animal Companion or Familiar and take the Share Soulmeld feat, it also gains the benefit of your soulmelds, and essentially doubles your attacks again. But I don't know a way you can do that pre-epic without multiclassing.

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) and Acquire Animal Companion. (3 feats, familiar as a level 6 spellcaster).

Complete and utter cheese, but it works.

[dextercorvia]

Bard3 dip gets DFI and can take Obtain Familiar. You lose the once per day doubling, but your familiar makes up for that. DFI doesn't mind that they are volley attacks, so you are each making 7 attacks at +Xd6.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, either of those two options would work fine. My preferred method would be Sorcerer or Wizard 1/Totemist 2 or Incarnate 3/Anything 1-2/PrC X. (Ironsoul Forgemaster, Totem Rager, Necrocarnate, Soulcaster, etc). It's far less feat intensive, and opens up the use of spell trigger items (wands, staves, scrolls, etc) without UMD. Lots of otherwise mediocre Incarnum options become fairly awesome and fun when you use this method.

[balistafreak]

Thought for the day: shoehorn Totemist2 into a Swift Hunter build?

It shoots multiple shots as a standard action: lots of skirmish damage, albeit delayed by two levels. Bit of a feat tax, though.

[Arbitrarity]

Thought for the day: shoehorn Totemist2 into a Swift Hunter build?

It shoots multiple shots as a standard action: lots of skirmish damage, albeit delayed by two levels. Bit of a feat tax, though.

As a volley attack, manticore belt shouldn't work with precision damage, other than the first hit.

If you have a totemist Factotum, does Cunning Insight apply to each Manticore Belt attack roll (or each damage roll) using 1 IP? I recall seeing that interpretation before, since Manticore belt is a volley.

[MeeposFire]

Using a factotum is nice since they can spend inspiration to get extra standard attacks for your manticore belt.

[kestrel404]

Combining all of the ideas from this thread, I've got the following partial build to maximize manticore tail:

Totemist 2/Bard 2/Incarnate 16
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Obtain Familiar, Share Soulmeld, Dragonfire Inspiration, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Words of Creation
Spells: Inspirational boost
Items: Badge of Valor, Essentia capacity booster

Total attack:
Essentia invested in soulmeld = 4 (hd) + 1 (totem) + 2 (incarnate) + 1 (feat) + 1 (item) = 9
Bardic music bonus: +6d6 fire damage
Familiar bonus: Effectively doubled essentia.
Total attack: 2*9*(1d6+6d6 fire+1/2 str) at full BAB, potential for 126d6 damage as a standard action.

[Coidzor]

Total attack:
Essentia invested in soulmeld = 4 (hd) + 1 (totem) + 2 (incarnate) + 1 (feat) + 1 (item) = 9

Just doublecheck the rules, as that approach has had some doubt cast upon it. Or is it a soulmeld of both classes?


That doesn't work. Carefully perusing the section on Soulmelds reveals that expanded essentia capacities from class features only apply to that class' soulmelds.

Also, something to considerWild Cohorts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)+ Soulcaster->Silverwood Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a).

Though it would necessitate giving up Totemist 15's boost in order to get share spells. And bring the feat cost up significantly for obtain familiar+wild cohort+prereqs for soulcaster. Actually all of the feats necessary for this might preclude it from being viable in a normal game, though I haven't run a count yet.

[kestrel404]

Just doublecheck the rules, as that approach has had some doubt cast upon it. Or is it a soulmeld of both classes?


At 3rd level and again at 15th level, the essentia capacity of your soulmelds increases by 1, superseding the number on Table 2–1. This only applies to soulmelds, not to feats, class features, or other abilities that allow essentia investment.

Nothing in the expanded soulmeld capacity from Incarnate limits it to incarnate soulmelds. Unless the issue is from errata, I can't see it as an issue, either RAW or RAI.

[Glimbur]

Nothing in the expanded soulmeld capacity from Incarnate limits it to incarnate soulmelds. Unless the issue is from errata, I can't see it as an issue, either RAW or RAI.

Rule 1 of MoI is that it is poorly organized. That rule is hidden on page 20, under the heading "Multiclass Meldshapers".

[dextercorvia]

@kestrel

Without Bard3 you don't qualify for Obtain familiar. Also, the Badge of Valor is more dubious than usual for receiving the doubling of Words of Creation, since it applies its bonus to the existing music.

[kestrel404]

Rule 1 of MoI is that it is poorly organized. That rule is hidden on page 20, under the heading "Multiclass Meldshapers".

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's pretty specific. Poorly located, but specific. I liked Incarnate 16 because it got Heart Chakra binding and lots more essentia.


@kestrel

Without Bard3 you don't qualify for Obtain familiar. Also, the Badge of Valor is more dubious than usual for receiving the doubling of Words of Creation, since it applies its bonus to the existing music.

Practiced spellcaster (1st feat on list) raises spellcaster level, meeting obtain familiar requirements. Only reason I've got 2 levels of bard is to get 1st level spells for Inspirational boost.

But you're right about the badge bonus not doubling.

So, Bard 2/Totemist 18, same list of feats. You get 1 less capacity and 1d6 less damage per needle, reducing the damage to 2*8*6d8 damage (96d6).

[dextercorvia]

Practiced spellcaster (1st feat on list) raises spellcaster level, meeting obtain familiar requirements.


It is not the same.

Nevermind, I was getting the prereqs mixed up with improved familiar. Carry on.

[Coidzor]

Hmm... So I figured I'd sketch out a little skeleton for that bard+soulcaster+silverwood arcanist thing I mentioned earlier.

Gets 5th level bard spells, 14 levels of meldshaping, a familiar and a wild cohort(based on character level entirely) that share one's soulmelds, dragonfire inspiration + items to boost a +1 base inspire courage.

Costs 19 skillpoints, 4 feats for PrCs (1 of which is desired anyway), and 2 more feats for the shtick to work.

So not all that good, but it doesn't seem to be outright crippled by the exercise, but it is giving up a fair bit in order to triple its output with another creature. Fairly squishy though, not really sure of the squishiness of soulcaster but I imagine it's more squishy than Totemist proper. Since it's a ranged build though and has a built-in body guard as part of its deal...

Silverbrow Human
Human feat- Precocious Apprentice
1st level feat- Dragonfire Inspiration
Bard 1
Totemist 1
Totemist 2
3rd level feat- Incarnum Spellshaping
Totemist 3
Totemist 4
Soulcaster 1
6th level feat- Wild Cohort
Soulcaster 2
Soulcaster 3
Soulcaster 4
9th level feat- Obtain Familiar
Soulcaster 5
Soulcaster 6
Soulcaster 7
12th level feat- Mounted Combat
Silverwood Arcanist 1
Silverwood Arcanist 2
Silverwood Arcanist 3
15th level feat- X (Improved Familiar? Expanded Soulmeld Capacity?)
Silverwood Arcanist 4
Silverwood Arcanist 5
Soulcaster 8
18th level feat- Y (???)
Soulcaster 9
Soulcaster 10

[Keld Denar]

Coidzor, drop a feat on Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandles) and bind them to your Feet Chakra for all day fast perfect flight.

[balistafreak]

Coidzor, drop a feat on Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandles) and bind them to your Feet Chakra for all day fast perfect flight.

Do note that a great deal of squabbling surrounds the interpretation of this. It is... rather poorly worded.

[Keld Denar]

As far as what? The touching the ground part? Or the binding Shape Soulmeld melds to chakras of other classes?

[Glimbur]

As far as what? The touching the ground part? Or the binding Shape Soulmeld melds to chakras of other classes?

The shaped effect has harsh limits on how much flying you can do. The bind effect is unclear if it only improves maneuverability or if it removes the harsh limits as well. An all day fly speed at 4th level is pretty good... but it's probably reasonable so if I was called to rule on the issue I'd let the bind be a more normal fly speed without the "once a round" and "fall if not on the ground" wording. But I can see how one would rule the other way.

[Keld Denar]

Well, considering the HUGE manueverability difference between average and perfect, and the fact that other things with perfect fly are things like Beholders and Incorporials who have complete and total mastery over their flight, I think its safe to say that the "must touch the ground" part is removed with perfect maneuverability.

[MeeposFire]

You could bind a pegasus cloak for ll day true flight if you bind it to your shoulders.

[Darth Stabber]

If manueverability is not an issue the clumsy fly speed of the manticore belt's Waist bind is the easier to attain.

[Coidzor]

Coidzor, drop a feat on Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandles) and bind them to your Feet Chakra for all day fast perfect flight.

Just to get flight on there or so that the flight that one has access to allows perfect synchronicity of the familiar and wildcohort in addition to the character?

So I'm really embarrassed that I didn't even think to notice that I could've slipped Sublime Chord in there, possibly. :smallredface: As it gets 3rd level spells just at/before 10th level anyway....

Is the whole 16 HD thing for meldshaping any kind of HD or does it have to be HD from levels of a meldshaping class? Since the current one only has 14 levels of meldshaping on it, so if it was by levels of meldshaping in multiples of 4, I could pare off two levels in order to grab sublime chord and drop the meldshaping levels down to 12...

[Glimbur]

Is the whole 16 HD thing for meldshaping any kind of HD or does it have to be HD from levels of a meldshaping class? Since the current one only has 14 levels of meldshaping on it, so if it was by levels of meldshaping in multiples of 4, I could pare off two levels in order to grab sublime chord and drop the meldshaping levels down to 12...

It's any hit dice. Meldshaping isn't quite as nice as ToB for multiclassing but capacity increasing regardless of what class you have is one of the reasons it is a nice flavor to add to any build that can afford to.

From how I see things, Meldshaper Level is kind of... unimportant. All it does is help you overcome SR if you use offensive soulmelds and help you resist dispelling. And soulmelds come back in 1d4 turns from a regular dispel so it's less deadly to be dispelled. And they have to be targeted to be dispelled which means generally that won't be done... barring Chain Dispel Magic which is a mean trick :smallwink:

[Draz74]

Well, considering the HUGE manueverability difference between average and perfect, and the fact that other things with perfect fly are things like Beholders and Incorporials who have complete and total mastery over their flight, I think its safe to say that the "must touch the ground" part is removed with perfect maneuverability.

I don't. It says nothing about removing the "must land each turn" restriction, so it doesn't remove it. You just get perfect maneuverability during your really short flights. This is in keeping with the power level of Feet chakra binds in general.

[MeeposFire]

I don't. It says nothing about removing the "must land each turn" restriction, so it doesn't remove it. You just get perfect maneuverability during your really short flights. This is in keeping with the power level of Feet chakra binds in general.

Indeed. Perfect flight does not mean you have constant flight (or else that would be under the perfect maneuverability banner which it is not). Perfect maneuverability is still useful in this situation as it would allow you to fly straight up and then in any direction with no wasted speed unlike other maneuver abilities.

Only constant flight with the better maneuverability is Pegasus cloak which has a bonus to jump checks and free feather fall. With one feat (same cost for a totemist to pick up the sandals) you can get good maneuverability, unless you are draconic in which case I think there is a feat that will boost your maneuverability by two levels in the Draconomicon in which case you get perfect flight for the same cost as the sandals.