Optimizing Mounted Combat [3.5]

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm wondering if there's any kind of handbook for optimizing mounted characters. My google-fu has thus far failed me. Obviously you need Leadership (For a cohort mount), Spirited Charge, Mounted Combat... What else? Is there a list of good mounts? Am I missing anything?

[Keld Denar]

You need a houserule for Ride-By-Attack. As printed, it doesn't work. Thats the first thing you need.

Charging requires a straight line to the closest square you can hit your foe in. Ride-By-Attack keeps you moving in a straight line after that charge. Unless you kill the foe with your charge, they are STILL IN YOUR WAY.

[Cieyrin]

You need a houserule for Ride-By-Attack. As printed, it doesn't work. Thats the first thing you need.

Charging requires a straight line to the closest square you can hit your foe in. Ride-By-Attack keeps you moving in a straight line after that charge. Unless you kill the foe with your charge, they are STILL IN YOUR WAY.

Here's where I think the confusion lies and I can illustrate how the feat can conceivably work as RAW.

{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E
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In the above grid, you have an enemy in C1 and you, a halfling on a riding dog with a lance, are in D5. You decide to do a Ride-By Attack, so do you so.

{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E
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Our example halfling charges forward, moving the requisite 10 feet and is within 10' of his target, which is within his lance's reach, so he makes his attack then. You can then continue to move in a straight line, continuing your movement up column D.

Charging doesn't need to mean charging straight at your target, you can hit them from corners, too. :smallsmile:

[Adamantrue]

Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a)
Ride-By Attack: This feat works something like the Spring Attack feat. You can charge a foe, attack, and then keep moving. The total distance you move cannot exceed twice your mount's speed. You and your mount's movements don't provoke attacks of opportunity from the foe you attack. Since you must charge in a straight line and you cannot move through another creature's space when charging, exactly how you use this feat is problematical. According to the D&D FAQ, you charge directly toward your target as normal. After your attack, you can change direction so you can move away in a straight line. I've played around with Mounted Combat, and it can be pretty cool. Wielding a Lance 2-Handed nets some ridiculous damage with Power Attack & Spirited Charge, even if you are a Gnome on the back of a Dog.

[Keld Denar]

I'm well aware. It ONLY works in the situation you showed, though. If you aren't in a cardinal direction line slightly offset with your foe, chances are good you'll end up having to go right through their square.

Ok, I shouldn't say it doesn't work, because it does in a couple of corner cases such as the above, but many times, especially when you are head-on with your foe, or when you are charging at a diagonal, it doesn't work as written.

[Cieyrin]

I'm well aware. It ONLY works in the situation you showed, though. If you aren't in a cardinal direction line slightly offset with your foe, chances are good you'll end up having to go right through their square.

Ok, I shouldn't say it doesn't work, because it does in a couple of corner cases such as the above, but many times, especially when you are head-on with your foe, or when you are charging at a diagonal, it doesn't work as written.

I think it's less a problem with Ride-By Attack as the fact we're using a grid. It can also work better if your mount flies, it just needs some setup with free movement, which works better with customized, intelligent mounts. Pegasus Cleric with Travel Devotion? :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Any good prestige classes for mounted, non-casting characters?

[Adamantrue]

Draconomicon has the Dragon Steed Feat, which lets you have a Dragonnel as a Mount. Its a pretty cool alternative to gaining one through Leadership.

I also can't believe I forgot about this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7414).

[TroubleBrewing]

Thank you, that will do nicely!

[Cieyrin]

Any good prestige classes for mounted, non-casting characters?

Cavalier (CW) is a good go-to, for Deadly Charge alone, as can Wild Plains Outrider (CAv) and Halfling Outrider (CW), though HO is more for Uber Mount builds.

[Cespenar]

Can the mount be made to jump over the enemy after the attack, continuing its movement in a straight path?

[Greenish]

Any good prestige classes for mounted, non-casting characters?Ashworm Dragoon! :smallcool:

Can the mount be made to jump over the enemy after the attack, continuing its movement in a straight path?I don't see why not*, except that it'll be problematic against bigger creatures. Granted, most things used as mounts have naturally high Jump modifiers as a function of their strength and speed.

Heh, a bog standard light warhorse has +19 Jump modifier with no ranks in the skill. Slap on Horseshoes of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed) and it rises to +31.


*Except if your DM decides that jumping in an arch isn't possible, only a high jump or long jump, as described in the Jump entry, but I find that exceedingly unlikely.

[Cieyrin]

Knight of the Iron Glacier (FB) is also fun if you go Pally and you want to ride a War Moose (who wouldn't? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle8px80d2wm3pd) :smallcool:)

[SurlySeraph]

Any good prestige classes for mounted, non-casting characters?

Beastmaster (CAdv) is pretty good.
Halfling Outrider (CW)can be very good. As Cieyrin noted, it is primarily used as the basis for "Supermount" builds, because it adds to both special mount and animal companion progression, and the feat Devoted Tracker lets you designate the same creature as both your mount and your animal companion.
For example, a Paladin 5/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ [any class with Animal Companion progression] 4 gets a mount with the benefits of an 18th-level Druid animal companion and 15th-level Paladin mount, such as a horse with +20 bonus HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, etc.

[Coidzor]

Valorous (+1 from Unapproachable East) Lance for the equivalent of a crit on every charge as the base damage, with actual crits becoming x5 monstrosities.

Two Tunnel Fighting Feats from, I believe, races of stone, let your large sized mount fit into medium-sized spaces with no penalty.

Charger feats, of course

Pounce if at all possible, failing that, move+full attack(in which case valorous lance becomes less important).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

What about mounted archery?

[Darrin]

Can the mount be made to jump over the enemy after the attack, continuing its movement in a straight path?

That's not clear. While moving "up" may not be considered "in a straight line", the Rules Compendium now explicitly allows you to long jump over "obstacles" during a charge. However, there is no RAW definition of what constitutes an "obstacle". I have no idea if that includes terrain features, allies, or enemy creatures. By RAW, if any creature is in the path of your charge (allies or enemies), then you can't even declare the charge to begin with. The rules for jumping/tumbling during a charge don't specify if you can declare a charge contingent on making a jump/tumble check, or how you treat intervening allies/enemies (what's the DC for tumbling past an ally?).

More troublesome is what happens if you fail the Jump check: do you just stop next to your opponent, do you then treat it as an improvised overrun/bull rush, do you land prone somewhere else, or come crashing down on top of his head? If the check fails, are you still considered charging (-2 penalty to AC), or do you just treat it as a move action gone horribly wrong (no AC penalty)? Regardless of all that, Ride-By-Attack shouldn't require a successful skill check to work the way it was intended.

One of the more annoying things about the Mounted Combat rules is it seems like during the entire run of 3.x, no one actually *playtested* them, otherwise these quirks would have come up and they could have fixed them. The "can only make a single melee attack" is another huge pet peeve of mine, although there are a few tricks to get around that (Person_Man has an interesting combo in his Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4758241) build to get a full attack on a charging mount by abusing the action economy).

While I can't blame the 3.0 designers for not anticipating Pounce-type abilities becoming more widely available later, I can still wonder why none of them tried to clean up the mounted combat rules in 3.5. I'm guessing most players never bother with mounted combat to begin with, or most DMs just handwave the quirky headaches with improvised rulings as they come up.

But yes, you have to houserule Ride-By-Attack so that you can attack from the first square that allows you to ride past your target.

[Person_Man]

Paladin Mount Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6985038)

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)

Most arcane casters can have fairly amazing mounts by getting a Familiar and using the Share Spells ability. Similarly, Incarnum builds can essentially double their power by getting a Familiar and taking the Share Soulmelds feat.

I would also add that mounted builds generally want Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).