What's to stop anyone from Efreet abuse?

[Firechanter]

Efreeti have an ability that they probably hate: they can grant 3 Wishes per day (as per the spell) to non-Efreet. They hate servitude though so you have to make them.

Option 1: Be a caster. Circle of Protection from Evil + Dimensional Anchor + Planar Binding. Summons an Efreeti, who can't get away. Now you can bug him until he gives in and grants you those bleeding wishes. Cost: zilch.

Option 2: Gate spell. You need to be higher level caster for this one, but you have the summoned creature under your control automatically, and you just want an instant service, so there's no haggling - you get your 3 wishes. Cost: 1000XP for casting the spell.

Option 3: Candle of Invocation. Works like Gate, only you don't have to pay the XP. Cost: some 8400GP or so.

Then even if you stay modest and don't wish for Ultimate Power or Be Like Unto The Gods or such bollocks, you can still wish for stuff like a 50-pound platinum bar (value 25K gold, as per spell description), and another Candle of Invocation of course, and whatever else strikes your fancy.

What keeps anyone from repeating this every day, each time scoring, say, 50K GP and a candle of invocation unless they have more pressing issues? Will the Efreet get increasingly pissed and try to retaliate? After all, they can Plane Shift themselves and all.
What would happen if someone tried that stunt?

[awa]

i have actually considered this and have determined that in a logical world the Efreet would intimidate a weak creature into using the wishes as the Efreet sees fit. In addition all Efreet would be part of a pact if a wizard kidnaps you we will come rescue you and put the puny mortal in his place in exchange you will do the same for me. Efreet would logically have vast amounts of magical items because they have 3 free wishes a day and can force a weak creature to use them however the Efreet wants. Efreet can use candles of invocation or bribe powerful creatures with wishes in order to annihilate the wizard the trick of course would be overwhelming force.

maybe a magic item of continuous dimensional anchor to prevent summoning entirely not sure if that would work but if it does no Efreet abuse

[Doc Roc]

Characterizing this as a known problem would be a grave injustice to the CO community. This is, in fact, one of the most well known issues, and arises any time a summonable creature has wish as an SLA. By RAW, all that prevents it is the sanity of the GM, an ever-diminishing commodity of significant inherent worth.

[Saph]

Efreeti have an ability that they probably hate: they can grant 3 Wishes per day (as per the spell) to non-Efreet. They hate servitude though so you have to make them.

...

What would happen if someone tried that stunt?

Think about it. You're an immortal outsider with access to, basically, infinite wishes. All of your fellow immortal outsiders also have the same access to said wishes. You want to stop other beings taking advantage of you.

Given infinite resources and time, very few problems are a challenge, really.

[Keld Denar]

As the velocity of a thrown rulebook increases, the number of problems it can't solve goes toward zero. By RAW, nothing can stop what you are insinuating. By rule 0, you can put your foot down and say "no, not today, not like this, if you guys are gonna pull stunts like this, I'm gonna take my toys campaign and go home."

[Doc Roc]

Think about it. You're an immortal outsider with access to, basically, infinite wishes. All of your fellow immortal outsiders also have the same access to said wishes. You want to stop other beings taking advantage of you.

Given infinite resources and time, very few problems are a challenge, really.

1: Summon Elemental Weird.
2: Engage Radar.
3a: Develop and deploy Commander Time-tram.
3b: Travel back All The Way, create a demi-plane.
3c: You now have a tram-stop.
4: Exterminate would-be wishers by erasing them from the timeline.
5: Relax, in your giant sauna.
6: Admire the paper boats made of those pesky character sheets.

[NichG]

On the spectrum of IC to OOC solutions:

1. All efreeti have pre-booked their wishes and use them immediately at the start of the day. The chance of getting an efreet with wishes left is basically zero.

2. Efreeti are constantly scrying for people who do this (or better yet, are about to do this), and if one is summoned, ten others show up and destroy the caster.

3. All efreeti have used Wish to Craft Contingent Spell a host of horrible spell effects that trigger when they are being summoned.

4. All efreeti have geased themselves (or better yet, gotten an epic caster to geas them in exchange for some wishes) to only ever use their wishes for self-serving reasons - since in a strict reading this enforces behavior ("the creature must blah blah blah") it conflicts with the control assigned by Gate, protecting them.

5. There are no non-unique efreeti in the cosmos, and therefore going through a gate is always optional for them.

6. Houserule: Creatures summoned via Gate are under no compulsion to obey the caster's will and must always be bargained with for any service.

7. Houserule: Gate is banned

8. Houserule: Wish cannot create magical items if cast without an xp expenditure, and as an SLA it cannot have an xp expenditure, so you 'merely' get free spell-effect wishes and wealth, and no permanent magic items.

9. PCs who attempt this are instantly smote by an extra-universal guardian that is constantly watching for people trying to become Pun-Pun, and stopping the efreet train is part of it.

10. Discuss this out of character as an example of disruptive play. It never even is attempted in character, and persistent attempts by the player to do this result in the player being sanctioned or ejected.

I like #6 as it solves a host of other issues with Gate, while still leaving in the very appropriate theme of summoning powerful entities to make deals with them. #10 is also good. The rest I think are a bit artificial and seem a bit like trying too hard to keep to the obviously broken parts of the RAW.

[Firechanter]

@Saph: Efreeti don't have access to their own Wishes. By RAW, they can grant these wishes only to non-genies.
So possibly they could force a weaker creature to wish for something the Efreeti demands. Though if I were the DM of an Efreeti I wouldn't allow it. :p Besides, the creature just has to wish for something like "I wish you and all your kin to leave me alone" or "Go to the deepest layer of the Abyss and stay there for a week" or something like that.
So in short, that's not gonna work.

What might work would be the "Efreet Alliance". If someone summons an Efreeti once, he may get his three wishes (because the Efreeti has no choice) but is warned not to try that again. If he does, his name goes on the Efreet Black List and they will try to hunt him down. If the wisher is too powerful for the Efreet, they may strike a deal with some powerful Devils, exchanging a Wish for a Service with them to get rid of the pesky mortal.

Then again, a Wisher who knows about this could circumvent this by, upon summoning an Efreeti, carefully formulating as one of his wishes that the genie must not in any way proliferate any information concerning his summoning or summoner, yadda yadda legalese, you get the idea -- in short, prevent the Efreeti from telling anyone about it, so the Wisher needs to fear no consequences.
So effectively he could maintain the routine of wishing 1) a new candle of invocation, 2) the non-disclosure agreement, and 3) what he actually wanted.

[TheGeckoKing]

Each and every Efreeti has a sentient magical ring/piercing/something conspicuous. It is specially enchanted to automatically know when the Efreeti regains it's daily ability to grant wishes, at which point it automatically wishes for 3 grains of sand (Items intended purpose), of which the Efreeti obliges. Wishes used up, and no collateral. Done and done. Except for Disjunction, but that spell is a game-killer. And the Efreeti can reprogram the item to summon enough gold to upgrade the item it, so can make all the will saves anyway.

[Doc Roc]

@Saph: Efreeti don't have access to their own Wishes. By RAW, they can grant these wishes only to non-genies.
So possibly they could force a weaker creature to wish for something the Efreeti demands. Though if I were the DM of an Efreeti I wouldn't allow it. :p Besides, the creature just has to wish for something like "I wish you and all your kin to leave me alone" or "Go to the deepest layer of the Abyss and stay there for a week" or something like that.
So in short, that's not gonna work.

What might work would be the "Efreet Alliance". If someone summons an Efreeti once, he may get his three wishes (because the Efreeti has no choice) but is warned not to try that again. If he does, his name goes on the Efreet Black List and they will try to hunt him down. If the wisher is too powerful for the Efreet, they may strike a deal with some powerful Devils, exchanging a Wish for a Service with them to get rid of the pesky mortal.

Then again, a Wisher who knows about this could circumvent this by, upon summoning an Efreeti, carefully formulating as one of his wishes that the genie must not in any way proliferate any information concerning his summoning or summoner, yadda yadda legalese, you get the idea -- in short, prevent the Efreeti from telling anyone about it, so the Wisher needs to fear no consequences.
So effectively he could maintain the routine of wishing 1) a new candle of invocation, 2) the non-disclosure agreement, and 3) what he actually wanted.

We've tried to generate legalese for such things, and it proves to be very nearly impossible if you allow certain kinds of traditional wish corruption.

[Keld Denar]

I like NichG's suggestion #8. Simple, elegant, and effective. If you can't wish for more Candles of Invocation or Rings of 3 Wishes, then you can't chain-loop the process. It also stops the PCs from wishing for ultra-high priced magical items like a Monk's Belt of Magnificence and Battle and the Wide Earth and Healing and Dwarvenkind and Infinite Pie and The-Cake-Not-Being-A-Lie and some other silliness.

[awa]

by raw he can intimidate a weak creature into saying whatever he wants and their is nothing saying a Efreet has to accept a wish to send him to hell he can instead rip the poor commoners head off for a circumstance bonus to his intimidate for the next commoner. so in short Efreet can have vast numbers of wishes and can preemptively prevent summoning.

"You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile)."

an efreet has a +17 bonus to intimidate by using his enlarge ability it goes up an extra 8 against medium targets. the dc for a human commoner is between 2 and 21 so the efreet literally can't fail even if the commoner rolls a 20 and he rolls a one

[mobdrazhar]

after they have made the 1st 3 wishes, when they summon the 2 effret they end up summoning the exact same effret and thus his wishes are used.

[Firechanter]

I like NichG's suggestion #8. Simple, elegant, and effective. If you can't wish for more Candles of Invocation or Rings of 3 Wishes, then you can't chain-loop the process. It also stops the PCs from wishing for ultra-high priced magical items like a Monk's Belt of Magnificence and Battle and the Wide Earth and Healing and Dwarvenkind and Infinite Pie and The-Cake-Not-Being-A-Lie and some other silliness.

Okay, that's a start. "No Magic Items" is a limitation that makes sense, not only from metagame standpoint but also IC.
However, what's the difference if you can instead wish for 75000GP, and just buy a new Candle of Invocation at IKEA for 9000 or whatever it was? Even if one of your wishes has to be legalese to keep the Efreet off your back, you still walk out with a net profit of over 40K.

[Gnaeus]

by raw he can intimidate a weak creature into saying whatever he wants and their is nothing saying a Efreet has to accept a wish to send him to hell he can instead rip the poor commoners head off for a circumstance bonus to his intimidate for the next commoner. so in short Efreet can have vast numbers of wishes and can preemptively prevent summoning.

Alternately, to reduce any chance for mishap, he can find an ally to do it. Pick your favorite follower, have them stop by at 9:01 each morning, and wish for stuff that benefits you both. Like slaves to torture, or comfy pillows, or 5 gp. It doesn't say that Efreets can't get along with members of any other species, only that they are cruel and hate servitude. Surely in a given efreet's lifetime he can find someone who he can get along with.

[AtomicKitKat]

Okay, that's a start. "No Magic Items" is a limitation that makes sense, not only from metagame standpoint but also IC.
However, what's the difference if you can instead wish for 75000GP, and just buy a new Candle of Invocation at IKEA for 9000 or whatever it was? Even if one of your wishes has to be legalese to keep the Efreet off your back, you still walk out with a net profit of over 40K.

I might be wrong, but unless the person selling those Candles of Invocation/Rings of 3 Wishes is himself abusing one per day to get 3(2 for selling, 1 for himself, or 8 for selling, 1 for 3 days, etc.), it's an XP drain to create these items. Not every campaign has a Magic R Us on every street corner.

As far as generic rules to protect Efreets. You know what's the prime export of the City of Brass? Knuckles. White-hot knuckles of brass that can tear through dimensions to crotch punch the upper soul controlling entities who summon Efreetis. Alternatively, the overlord of the CoB is a deity who can prevent/identify portals entering his demesnes. He then sends his elite assassins(armed with aforementioned White-hot Knuckles of Crotch Punching) to deal with the impudent mortals kidnapping his citizens.

Also, you summon an Efreet who's on the crapper. He craps whatever it is Efreetis eat(Yeah yeah, outsiders/elementals don't eat, blah blah. Just go with this). Which is presumably at a very high temperature, like the rest of the CoB. Onto the summoner.

[bloodtide]

Okay, that's a start. "No Magic Items" is a limitation that makes sense, not only from metagame standpoint but also IC.
However, what's the difference if you can instead wish for 75000GP, and just buy a new Candle of Invocation at IKEA for 9000 or whatever it was? Even if one of your wishes has to be legalese to keep the Efreet off your back, you still walk out with a net profit of over 40K.


How many Candles of Invocation will the Magic Mart have? How many 17th+ level spellcasters are around to make the candles? In a normal game, not too many.

Even if your world has lots of 17th+ level spellcasters..how many would make candles of Invocation for sale.

[Jack_Simth]

an efreet has a +17 bonus to intimidate by using his enlarge ability it goes up an extra 8 against medium targets. the dc for a human commoner is between 2 and 21 so the efreet literally can't fail even if the commoner rolls a 20 and he rolls a one
Skip the Enlarge ability. A stock Efreeti cannot fail an intimidate check against a fire memphit on a roll of 1. They're both native to the same plane, and a fire memphit is a nongenie. You don't need to worry about the care and feeding of human commoners on the elemental plane of fire (fire memphits are immune to fire, and don't need to eat; human commoners need some protection and food), nor do you need to worry about use of the Enlarge ability.

As an Efreeti, intimidate Fire Memphits into doing your bidding - which is to say, getting a highly specific set of Wishes. Anything from supporting a mutual defense pact, to setting up contingent spells to whisk them away from your planar binding.

Plus: Efreeti are Lawful-Evil, with a listed racial hatred of servitude. Mutual defense pacts? Totally in line. You bind an Efreeti once, you might be fine. Maybe. Try it more than once? Make 30 will saves each day for a month, to avoid being sent somewhere instantly lethally unpleasant, as ten Efreeti arrange for the 'transport travelers' clause of Wish (which includes that nifty 'regardless of local conditions' clause to get to yank you out of AMF's and ignore teleport-blocks) to send you to the middle of a Sphere of Annihilation, the center of a star, or similar. Oh yes, and at least one of those Efreeti took Supernatural Transformation - they're Su Wishes, and ignore SR. Roll up a new character.

[Firechanter]

That's one of the mysteries of D&D economy, just like with spellcasting services. Unless we assume a planned economy and prices dictated by an authority, the prices will be set by supply and demand on the market. If highlevel magic was overly scarce, it would be much more expensive. The fact that a Candle of Invocation doesn't cost much more than a +2 Sword, even though it is much more difficult to make, can be party explained by there being a much higher demand for +2 weapons than for candles of invocation. But the supply has to be there, or the candles would be more expensive.

[Forum Explorer]

Remove Wish from the game. That spell seems to be to game breaking to just allow easy acess to.

[Ravens_cry]

Remember kids, Efreeti are Always Lawful Evil, which means the wishes will likely take the Literal Genie trope to extremes that would make the most hardened and despicable rules lawyer cry.

[Odin the Ignoble]

Efreets with cyanide capsule teeth?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

PHB page 173, also SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration):
"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."
There you have it, RAW summoned creatures always refuse to cast spells that cost xp or use spell-like abilities that copy spells that would cost xp, no matter what. Summoned creatures will never ever grant wishes no matter how hard you try.

[Jack_Simth]

PHB page 173, also SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration):
"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."
There you have it, RAW summoned creatures always refuse to cast spells that cost xp or use spell-like abilities that copy spells that would cost xp, no matter what. Summoned creatures will never ever grant wishes no matter how hard you try.
Sadly, Gate, as well as Planar Binding, are both Calling spells, not Summoning spells, and don't have that clause.

[Bobikus]

I like the method of handling it in Frank and K's Tome of Fiends. Set the magic item limit to 15k gp and mundane items at 25k gp, and realize that high level characters and outsiders don't have much use for gold at that point, and depending on what they are would be more interested in bartering services/favors, souls, magic/rare items/materials, etc.

[Set]

i have actually considered this and have determined that in a logical world the Efreet would intimidate a weak creature into using the wishes as the Efreet sees fit.

A totally logical use of Diplomacy would be for a mortal and Efreeti to come to an agreement that every day, the mortal gets one wish after he makes two other wishes that the Efreeti has written down and worded to benefit himself. Mutally assured awesomeness. The Efreeti needs a non-Outsider to accept the wishes, the mortal gets a free Wish a day, and as long as he doesn't mess up the first two Wishes (for the Efreeti's benefit) each day (and remembers that even if he does try to make a Wish that will screw over the Efreet, the Efreeti doesn't have to actually grant it...), he has a free ride.

Between shapeshifting options that allow access to supernatural abilities (such as Planar Shephard or higher levels of some Master of Many Forms type PrCs), the mundane diplomacy skill, planar ally/binding, summoning spells, gate, enlightened self-interest, leadership/cohort abuse, etc., etc. the game has no shortage of ways by which a PC could tap the power of genie wishes.

The only real solution, IMO, is to just nuke that ability. Genies grant favors, which can include stuff made via permanant creation from 'smokeless fire' and whatnot, or some minor permanant spell effects, or various other cool bennies, but a genies 'wish' doesn't have to be the actual 9th level Wish spell any more than an 'ally' has to be a Planar Ally.

Rather than come up with sophisticated meta-game reasons why 'genies wouldn't do that,' when we've seen plenty of indication that at least *some* genies would very much 'do that,' ranging from rules-defying chaotic djinn to ruthlessly power-seeking efreeti, it's easier to just change that 3/Wish spells / day power to the ability to create some mundane stuff and grant some magical favors through less open-ended effects.

It's not like the Wish spell really fits the mythical powers of genies to create castles overnight and turn beggars into kings anyway.

[JaronK]

In my games, Pun Pun already ascended long ago. He gained infinite intelligence and wisdom, and as such knows he's part of a game. The only way he can continue to exist, then, is for the game to continue, and for that to happen abusive tricks and exploits must be stopped so people can keep playing.

As such, Pun Pun is the god of exploits and overpowered stuff. So he knows in advance that you're going to do it, and sends a Nut Pun to give you a cookie for your effort and tell you that you shouldn't do it.

And you don't say no to Pun Pun.

JaronK

[Dingle]

I'd have different failures for different sources of wishes.
Effreeti MUST corrupt ALL wishes.
To the extent that if his best friend in the universe said "I wish you'd make me a sandwich", he'd have no choice but to turn the guy into a sandwich.

[DeltaEmil]

Remove Wish from the game. Trying anything else that results in you having to waste time arguing and thinking about how to screw over crafty players is your own fault, and you deserve it then.

[LordBlades]

Remove Wish from the game. Trying anything else that results in you having to waste time arguing and thinking about how to screw over crafty players is your own fault, and you deserve it then.

Or just have a mature talk with the players about what's acceptable and what's not, as it is (or should be) a friendly game where everybody is supposed to have fun.

[Shademan]

efreeti union
they are organized and angry

[true_shinken]

The problem here is Candle of Invocation. Planar Binding is risky by itself, and efreeti are touch cookies.
For some reason people tend to forget that efreeti hate servitude and that they can planar shift. If you bind one once, you're in for a world of hurt.
Efreeti as intelligent, evil and crafty creatures. You're messing with a guy with invisibility 3/day, change shape and high social skills. A guy who can (and will) get others to help him, by alliance or intimidation.
Heck, he could complain to papa efreet and then you'd have a 30HD Huge outsider (with The Mailman's build as well) knocking on your door. And he knows you, knows your spells and has to money to be immune to them.

Also, about 'candle of invocation is too cheap' - yes it is. It doesn't take in consideration the XP price in it's formula.

[Firechanter]

Ahem, in between: who or what is a "Pun-Pun"? Never heard the name before this thread.

Then: Candles of Invocation cost is calculated "correctly" as per the rules, factoring in the XP on a 5:1 gold price. The candle is some 3000 GP for the spell and 5000 GP for the XP.

Thirdly, you can always fomulate one Wish to rule out retribution. Failing that, you can still kill the wayward Genie when he gets uppity. It's CR8, not a frickin Pit Fiend. I am assuming you pull this stunt at maybe level 11 or higher.

Highlevels not having need for money anymore: I can't concur. Even a level 20 could always use another 50K to have a new property added to his gear. Though what would appear like Easter and Christmas rolled into one at level 10 would be just a minor boon on level 20, sure.

About an Efreeti having to corrupt all Wishes: by RAW, the possibility for Wish Corruption only kicks in when wishing for a special effect. So as long as you stick to duplicate spells or blocks of precious metal, you should be safe. Of course, "Make me a sandwich" is just asking for it.

[LordBlades]

The problem here is Candle of Invocation. Planar Binding is risky by itself, and efreeti are touch cookies.
For some reason people tend to forget that efreeti hate servitude and that they can planar shift. If you bind one once, you're in for a world of hurt.
Efreeti as intelligent, evil and crafty creatures. You're messing with a guy with invisibility 3/day, change shape and high social skills. A guy who can (and will) get others to help him, by alliance or intimidation.
Heck, he could complain to papa efreet and then you'd have a 30HD Huge outsider (with The Mailman's build as well) knocking on your door. And he knows you, knows your spells and has to money to be immune to them.

Also, about 'candle of invocation is too cheap' - yes it is. It doesn't take in consideration the XP price in it's formula.

The thing is you can make a mutually profitable deal for an efreeti. He's got 3 wishes he can't grant to himself. What you offer him is grant you 2 of them(one for you, the second for another candle of invocation), and you ask for whatever he wishes on the 3rd.

It takes absolutely no effort for an efreeti to grant you the wishes, and he gets to use one to further his own agenda.

They are Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Stupid. As long as your agenda does not intersect with the efreet's, I see no reason (other than DM fiat) why he wouldn't see this as a favorable deal.

[true_shinken]

The thing is you can make a mutually profitable deal for an efreeti.
Efreet hate servitude.

[DeltaEmil]

Pun-Pun is an attempt at showing how the rules for 3rd edition can be broken into creating a being that will receive all abilities there is (even supernatural and divine salient abilities from gods) and have infinite high stats before getting to level 10 or so.
It starts with a kobold variant, having him transform into a sarrukh (a Forgotten Realms reptile sorcerer creature capable of bestowing and transforming other reptiloid creatures with cheesy abilities that are permanent) and then find a way how to use the ability-bestowing ability of a sarrukh on himself.
Other variants exist, but they all are about how to twist D&D-rules into creating a supreme being that cannot be stopped... :smalleek:

Except by Iron Heart Surge... :smalltongue:

[Saintheart]

How come the notional gods of a D&D setting haven't been considered in this exercise? I seem to remember, horribly-statted-out though the Forgotten Realms gods are (as an example) that some of their divine abilities include perfect precognition of something affecting their portfolio x number of days before it happens.

Some nutball who wants to chain-wish himself in such a way as to break the cosmos by definition affects every god's portfolio, since it upsets the Cosmic Balance (TM) and surely would be visited by several major if not minor deities with lightning (or lovehearts, in Sune's case) from on high ahead of the actual summoning/gating/calling that brings the efreet to the Prime Material Plane?

[LordBlades]

Efreet hate servitude.

Then you can phrase the request in a favorable way. You're not making the efreeti serve you. You're offering him an opportunity to gains something (1 wish) for nothing (it takes no effort for him to grant wishes). He's free to accept or reject the offer, case in which you send him back.

I do think most logical and rational creatures (int 12 wis 15 for efreets) would take the offer.

[NichG]

Ahem, in between: who or what is a "Pun-Pun"? Never heard the name before this thread.


An example of rules abuse to achieve 'true' ascension within the system (by which I mean, arbitrary values for all stats and abilities, and the ability to author new abilities at whim). Or, what happens if you take things like this too far and refuse to just house rule or say no to the players already.



Thirdly, you can always fomulate one Wish to rule out retribution. Failing that, you can still kill the wayward Genie when he gets uppity. It's CR8, not a frickin Pit Fiend. I am assuming you pull this stunt at maybe level 11 or higher.


Generally when people try to solve this issue in-game, they consider the resources of a large number of efreeti/genies/whatever with time to prepare and foreknowledge that one day someone WILL summon them and try this crap. So sure, you kill the one guy, and his buddies who have prepped for the eventuality raise him and then proceed to invade your world and wipe out, enslave, etc everyone and everything you've ever cared about. Twenty thousand determined efreeti is not a CR 8 encounter.



About an Efreeti having to corrupt all Wishes: by RAW, the possibility for Wish Corruption only kicks in when wishing for a special effect. So as long as you stick to duplicate spells or blocks of precious metal, you should be safe. Of course, "Make me a sandwich" is just asking for it.


You're asking another being to issue a wish based on your own statements. At that point, there's little stopping that being from rephrasing or re-intenting a few things here or there to screw you over. Authoring airtight wishes is hard enough when you're not getting a hostile bound entity that hates you to translate them into Ignan first.



Highlevels not having need for money anymore: I can't concur. Even a level 20 could always use another 50K to have a new property added to his gear. Though what would appear like Easter and Christmas rolled into one at level 10 would be just a minor boon on level 20, sure.


If the DM doesn't crack down on economy-breaking tricks, then the monetary component of gear basically becomes irrelevant by these levels. Wall of Iron, Wall of Salt, Wish, any number of other tricks, or heck, even just the standard NPC wealth by level gear for the 13 encounters or whatever that are expected for the party to hit the next level will easily do it.

The XP component on the other hand always remains relevant barring Thought Bottle abuse. Usually at some point when this is going on a DM will simply say 'you can't buy items above X cost in this setting - you want it, make it yourself', and so that XP is coming out of you, not some random other guy.

[LordBlades]

The XP component on the other hand always remains relevant barring Thought Bottle abuse. Usually at some point when this is going on a DM will simply say 'you can't buy items above X cost in this setting - you want it, make it yourself', and so that XP is coming out of you, not some random other guy.

There are ways around that too.
Even excluding Artificer Craft Reserve (which is class based), consider this little trick: your party just gained enough xp to put you exactly 1 xp above the amount needed for next level. Unlike them, you do not level up, but rather decide to craft an item worth 2 xp. Next encounter, because you are 1 level lower (which is usually not a big deal), you will gain more XP (usually more than 2).

Voila, you have crafted and you now have more xp than the rest of the party (to use for more crafting)

NOTE: '1' and '2' are completely arbitrary figures in this example.

[Firechanter]

LordBlades: yeah, but then to the Genie you'd be like a telemarketer. The term "Cold Calling" gets a whole new meaning. :smallbiggrin: Just make sure you're not interrupting his dinner. ;)

[Gnoman]

Quite simple. Do this more than twice and you've started a war. Between the entire plane of fire and yourself.

[Eldan]

And the plane of fire is infinite. And allied with the nine hells.

[Gnoman]

Exactly. Once a player tries this tactic once, he'll never try it again in my games.

[Aharon]

An intelligently played Efreeti can evade granting wishes to a suboptimal wizard if planar bound.

Barring that, Planar Binding was written sloppily, so going by complete RAW, it doesn't work well (it has a target, and by default you need Line of Sight to your target. Nothing in the spell description obviates this neccessity).

The Gate and the Candle of Invocation work perfectly well, though. The only way to get around that at lower levels is to use a harsh interpretation of the wealth guidelines, which say that items up to a certain GP value are usually available. Just use that clause to make scrolls of Gate and Candles of Invocation unavailable.

This prevents chain-gating till level 17, at which point the players can break the game in multiple ways anyway, if they choose to do so.

The best way to deal with it is probably just an out-of-game consensus.

[DeltaEmil]

Yeah, and all that talk about how to stop "abusing" wish or how to screw over with players just shows that just removing wish would be so much easier. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from this spell, if such assinine restrictions are imposed upon using it. But then again, why do it the easy and time-saving way, if you can make it so much more difficult for yourself and the others, and let the game degenerate into purile GM vs Players-infantilism that was (and unfortunately is still) common 20 years back then.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, and all that talk about how to stop "abusing" wish or how to screw over with players just shows that just removing wish would be so much easier. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from this spell, if such assinine restrictions are imposed upon using it. But then again, why do it the easy and time-saving way, if you can make it so much more difficult for yourself and the others, and let the game degenerate into purile GM vs Players-infantilism that was (and unfortunately is still) common 20 years back then.
Hmm? The spell Wish is actually fine in play when you're casting it yourself, when you're not trying to get out of the XP cost, and when you're not attempting to step outside the listed bounds. It's when you're bypassing the XP cost (Efreeti spell-likes, Dweomerkeeper, a few others), getting others to cast it for you when you're too low-level to cast it yourself (Efreeti spell-likes; certain angels, demons, and devils; also a few others), and/or going outside the safe list (e.g., wishing everyone would obey you or some such) that you get problems. The spell itself isn't the problem.

[AtomicKitKat]

How come the notional gods of a D&D setting haven't been considered in this exercise? I seem to remember, horribly-statted-out though the Forgotten Realms gods are (as an example) that some of their divine abilities include perfect precognition of something affecting their portfolio x number of days before it happens.

Some nutball who wants to chain-wish himself in such a way as to break the cosmos by definition affects every god's portfolio, since it upsets the Cosmic Balance (TM) and surely would be visited by several major if not minor deities with lightning (or lovehearts, in Sune's case) from on high ahead of the actual summoning/gating/calling that brings the efreet to the Prime Material Plane?

See my signature. Also, any deity with the Time portfolio presumably sees everywhen at once. Not even trying to reset your point of ascension works unless you are capable of putting yourself outside of Time. At which point, you're now "unstuck" like Apocalypse in the old '90s X-Men cartoon.

[Tiki Snakes]

I believe there is some kind of Pun Pun build and/or plan that Doc Roc has previously discussed off-forum, involving Pun Pun using the outside-of-time nature of the Far Realm to essentially re-enter the time-stream everywhere at once, or something like that. 'Monty Carlo'? I forget what little detail he even explained, and remember being assured that the rest was even more confusing. :smallsmile:

but basically, yeah, I think there is a pun-pun build that can ascend outside of time.

[AtomicKitKat]

I believe there is some kind of Pun Pun build and/or plan that Doc Roc has previously discussed off-forum, involving Pun Pun using the outside-of-time nature of the Far Realm to essentially re-enter the time-stream everywhere at once, or something like that. 'Monty Carlo'? I forget what little detail he even explained, and remember being assured that the rest was even more confusing. :smallsmile:

but basically, yeah, I think there is a pun-pun build that can ascend outside of time.

Then an Elder Evil with Time consumes him upon his entrance and exit. At all times.:smalltongue:

[Tiki Snakes]

Then an Elder Evil with Time consumes him upon his entrance and exit. At all times.:smalltongue:

I couldn't possibly comment on the particulars, but to paraphrase you have basically hit upon the only rational prevention to gate-wish abuse. DM Fiat. *shrug*

As for the mutual-defence-league, It always amuses me when people suggest that intelligent evil creatures will go out of their way to insure metagame balance, simply because of one small clause in their description even when presented with significantly mutually beneficial arrangements.

Though I am amused by the idea of repeated uses of Gate calling exactly the same Efreet unless another unique individual is specified. I think it has potential. If the infinate loop in question requires the Efreet to provide additional Candle's of Invocation, it could infact nip the loop in the bud immediately and would generally be a very amusing moment I think.

[bloodtide]

One of the problems is looking at the D&D world as if it was Day One of Year One of the Mulitverse. As if the entire multiverse was created just for the player characters.


Look at it this way: The average game world has been around for at least a couple thousand years, the average multiverse for a couple million years. So by the time the player characters come along..it's all been done before.

To use FR as an example, the players in 1370 DR are coming along some 5,000 years after magic was invented. And there were plenty of archmages back in the old days(Neitherl, Imaski, the geine empires, ect).

So it would stand to reason that at least one someone say 1,000 years ago...or 500 years ago or even just a year ago had the 'Efreet wish idea'.

And what happened? Well, the spellcaster did the infinite wish loop and got tons of wishes. They could have done all sorts of wacky stuff, taken over the world, destroyed the world, killed a god, obliterated a plane, and so forth. But at some point, someone more powerful would have gotten ticked off. All the gods of the planet he destroyed, for example. And one person with a wish can't win vs a dozen persons all with wishes, plus more powerful magic too.

In short, the multiverse would go Nova. And then it would need to be created again. And you have to think they would put in safe guards so that it would not happen again(especially after say the 100th time).

[Saph]

I couldn't possibly comment on the particulars, but to paraphrase you have basically hit upon the only rational prevention to gate-wish abuse. DM Fiat. *shrug*

As for the mutual-defence-league, It always amuses me when people suggest that intelligent evil creatures will go out of their way to insure metagame balance, simply because of one small clause in their description even when presented with significantly mutually beneficial arrangements.

That's because you're seeing it purely from the player perspective. If you treat all non-PCs as, basically, objects for the PCs to interact with, then it seems like metagaming for the other creatures of the multiverse to have any kind of organisation or defence.

But if you treat the other inhabitants of the world as living creatures who've had goodness knows how many millenia of their immortal lives to work out solutions to common problems . . . then, really, it becomes metagaming to NOT have them have safeguards in place against planar binding enslavement.

[Killer Angel]

Then you can phrase the request in a favorable way. You're not making the efreeti serve you. You're offering him an opportunity to gains something (1 wish) for nothing (it takes no effort for him to grant wishes). He's free to accept or reject the offer, case in which you send him back.

You're forcing him to pay attention to you with a spell. He will not be pleased.
And, BTW, you're offering to him nothing he can more easily obtain, dictating to one of his slaves, a wish to express...


But if you treat the other inhabitants of the world as living creatures who've had goodness knows how many millenia of their immortal lives to work out solutions to common problems . . . then, really, it becomes metagaming to NOT have them have safeguards in place against planar binding enslavement.

Pretty much.

[Doug Lampert]

Pun-Pun is an attempt at showing how the rules for 3rd edition can be broken into creating a being that will receive all abilities there is (even supernatural and divine salient abilities from gods) and have infinite high stats before getting to level 10 or so.
Level 1, by at least 2 different build paths last time I checked, which was awhile back, there's the traditional Kobold Paladin and a spellcaster with precocious apprentice summoning a mirror-mephit.

And the abilities aren't infinite, they are simply arbitrarily high in that you can permanently raise them by any amount that you chose more or less instantly.

You aren't infinite divine rank, you simply have as many divine ranks as you want. You aren't infinite int, you simply have as much int as you want....

[Firechanter]

I'd say the fact that most of the world has _not_ been turned into one huge plane of fire ruled by Efreet, or Efreet being any more powerful that a mid-range encounter, is sufficient proof that these Genies cannot exploit their own Wish ability so easily. Certainly not by grabbing some mephit by the collar and forcing him to read that list they hand him.

[Doug Lampert]

You're forcing him to pay attention to you with a spell. He will not be pleased.
And, BTW, you're offering to him nothing he can more easily obtain, dictating to one of his slaves, a wish to express...
Shrug, so you use a Mirror Mephit created Simulicrum instead.

I'm not taking ANYTHING from an effreet that even existed 6 seconds ago.

Wish loops are bad. Stopping wish loops means taking free wishes out of the game.

Simply declare that wish and limited wish as "spell-like" or supernatural abilities ALWAYS drain the power from SOMETHING. Normally an appropriate god. The god of Efreets really doesn't mind an Efreet using his wishes as a big bribe or a "get out of jail free", he gets pissed when someone else abuses them.

This was in my houserules for 3.0 back in 2000! It's an obvious problem with a simple solution once you realize that the RaW are a crock on this one.

Effreets aren't ordering their servants to make them use wishes (which they DEFINITELY WOULD were it cost free), we know this, they don't all have +5 inherent to everything and every magic item in the DMG and MiC and all the other stuff an immortal with unlimited wishes should have.

Hence it's not free. That's the only way the world makes any sense at all. You get what the game designers presumably intended, and you're fairly consistent with RAW except for the statement that something involving a god is happening off screen!

DougL

[Firechanter]

That's certainly an approach worth thinking about.

Also, I had another thought about stopping Wish loops: The candle of invocation requires Gate. Gate is a 9th level spell. Wish can only emulate spells of 8th level or lower. Thus Wish cannot produce candles of invocation or rings of three wishes or anything else that requires a 9th level spell to make.

Because really, what's the point in limiting Wish to emulating 8th level or lower if you can simply wish for a 9th level scroll? Hence this should be extended to all items.

[NichG]

There are ways around that too.
Even excluding Artificer Craft Reserve (which is class based), consider this little trick: your party just gained enough xp to put you exactly 1 xp above the amount needed for next level. Unlike them, you do not level up, but rather decide to craft an item worth 2 xp. Next encounter, because you are 1 level lower (which is usually not a big deal), you will gain more XP (usually more than 2).

Voila, you have crafted and you now have more xp than the rest of the party (to use for more crafting)

NOTE: '1' and '2' are completely arbitrary figures in this example.

That enhances your XP pool (so can the Eberron feats that reduce the XP cost by 25%, Item Familiar, and a handful of other tricks), but it doesn't make the XP cost go away. Few epic items are really worth the 30000xp or whatever it takes to craft them (basically an entire level). I'd rather have a level than an additional +4 to a single stat, or a +2 to AC above my current AC, etc, especially if its the right level.

This also doesn't work in a game where most of the xp rewards are RP-based or quest based instead of combat based.

[Cuaqchi]

Easiest way to stop Efreet Wishing problems? Play the Efreet properly; because, really why would an Intelligent Evil Outsider bow to the wizard just because of a few abjurations. Unless the wizard in question words his wishes in an absolutely fool proof way there is an out for the Efreet, ex. You didn't say when you wanted your wish fulfilled. Also consider the time required to state loop-hole free wishes, and watch as the wizard's wards run out for the waiting genie.

[Bobikus]

Easiest way to stop Efreet Wishing problems? Play the Efreet properly; because, really why would an Intelligent Evil Outsider bow to the wizard just because of a few abjurations. Unless the wizard in question words his wishes in an absolutely fool proof way there is an out for the Efreet, ex. You didn't say when you wanted your wish fulfilled. Also consider the time required to state loop-hole free wishes, and watch as the wizard's wards run out for the waiting genie.

Keep in mind that they're intelligent but not incredibly so. An 11th level Wizard is more intelligent, more powerful, and probably has a fighter or cleric or someone else with him, maybe even someone like a Bard with superior Charisma/Diplomacy than the Efreeti.

[Cuaqchi]

The Efreet has an immortal life of practice, and unless you are very specific you won't get what you want; just what you asked for. There is also nothing that says where the the items/powers you wish for come from, what happens when the Great Wyrm that recently owned that trinket discovers hole in his loot and a signed note saying where it came from. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

a spellcaster with precocious apprentice summoning a mirror-mephit.That doesn't work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. (Emphasis added)

A Summoning spell can't get you Simulacrum, sorry.

Now, granted, Planar Binding one could... potentially...

[Firechanter]

Haha. On another forum I frequent we have a game thread, "Good Witch - Bad Witch". You make a wish. The next person who replies perverts your wish. Then it's this person's turn to make a wish.

That game does create some skill in wish-wording, but also shows that pretty much any wish can be perverted. (Only once we unanimously agreed that one guy had beat the game when he wished for sex with Sandra Bullock. Nobody could come up with a way to turn that into bad. XD )

[awa]

the idea that the efreet cant use his abilities because if they did the game wouldn't make sense does not work because dnd does not make sense.

by raw their is nothing stopping the effreet by logic they would have at least some protection in place. as others have said you are looking at this from the perspective of a pc and saying it wouldn't be logical for anyone to have ever tried what im about to because that would wreck the game

[Bobikus]

what happens when the Great Wyrm that recently owned that trinket discovers hole in his loot and a signed note saying where it came from. :smallbiggrin:

Disguise self before you cast so the Efreet doesn't know who you are anyway?

[Jack_Simth]

Haha. On another forum I frequent we have a game thread, "Good Witch - Bad Witch". You make a wish. The next person who replies perverts your wish. Then it's this person's turn to make a wish.

That game does create some skill in wish-wording, but also shows that pretty much any wish can be perverted. (Only once we unanimously agreed that one guy had beat the game when he wished for sex with Sandra Bullock. Nobody could come up with a way to turn that into bad. XD )
That just means the next person in line wasn't sufficiently creative. See, in the infinite multiverse that is the standard D&D paradigm, there's going to be more than one person named Sandra Bullock. There's nothing stopping there from being *a* Sandra Bullock that happens to be thorny, sadistic, forceful, indiscriminate, of a gender not matching your expectations, and infected with a few select diseases.

What ends that game is the ultimate subordinate clause: "...without anything I'd currently consider bad happening if I knew about it."

[Skaven]

I would say the Efreet are the ones stopping others from Efreet abuse.

All the tales are chock full of 'messing with wishes in this way is a bad idea' type stories. Efreet twist wishes mercilessly.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's because you're seeing it purely from the player perspective. If you treat all non-PCs as, basically, objects for the PCs to interact with, then it seems like metagaming for the other creatures of the multiverse to have any kind of organisation or defence.

But if you treat the other inhabitants of the world as living creatures who've had goodness knows how many millenia of their immortal lives to work out solutions to common problems . . . then, really, it becomes metagaming to NOT have them have safeguards in place against planar binding enslavement.

If it's really that unavoidable a situation, if it's really that likely that there is such a major organisation, then it would have been mentioned somewhere. Perhaps it does make more sense if you run it in such a way, but it shouldn't be treated as the expected. The solution proposed still falls into DM Fiat territory, really.

Also, in my opinion, it's often best not to follow these things to their logical conclusions in some cases, because a lot of it really should mean that the world is, by day three of the existence of the multiverse, a Shadow-blighted apocalypse or so on.

[NichG]

If it's really that unavoidable a situation, if it's really that likely that there is such a major organisation, then it would have been mentioned somewhere. Perhaps it does make more sense if you run it in such a way, but it shouldn't be treated as the expected. The solution proposed still falls into DM Fiat territory, really.


The DM is responsible for details of setting and plot. I'd say this isn't really traditional DM Fiat so much as it is the DM running a campaign in which the logical consequences of magic have been integrated, which is generally a reasonable and even laudable thing to attempt. It's no more fiat than, say, a kingdom mobilizing an army or sending heroes to take care of a power-mad high level PC wizard who insists on killing or dominating everyone he meets. Natural consequences and all that.

Of course...



Also, in my opinion, it's often best not to follow these things to their logical conclusions in some cases, because a lot of it really should mean that the world is, by day three of the existence of the multiverse, a Shadow-blighted apocalypse or so on.

I agree with this more. It's better to use straightforward, no excuses DM Fiat for real ("No, this just isn't acceptable at my table"/"It's houseruled to work differently") than to be forced by system silliness to drastically compromise the setting you as DM wish to run.

[LordBlades]

I agree with this more. It's better to use straightforward, no excuses DM Fiat for real ("No, this just isn't acceptable at my table"/"It's houseruled to work differently") than to be forced by system silliness to drastically compromise the setting you as DM wish to run.

+1.

If you're not happy with something it's way better to be straightforward and tell your players 'I'm not happy with that, please don't do it' rather than invent something in the world hat basically means 'if you don this you'll get shafted' for two reasons:

-It's frustrating to be told 'yes, you can have the cookie' when in reality you really can't.
-There are very few restrictions a crafty player can't circumvent. Very extreme example: perform your wish loop on your own, inaccessible, time accelerated pocket plane. Before they have time to react, you've passed the whole efreeti population of the plane of fire through your wish loop, making them agree that they won't exert vengeance upon you (among other things)

[NecroRick]

cf http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm



Even wish, however, has its limits.


This is the biggest one. If the DM and/or players insist that a Wish can do anything, then of course it can be abused.

Let's look at what it explicitly mentions you can do:



blah blah, duplicate a lower level spell, blah blah


Not so exciting, but wait, there's more!



You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these,


Now you're cooking with oil, let's see what it says about this...



but doing so is dangerous.


Pfftt. Danger schmanger.



(The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)


(emphasis added)

So, apparently just about the most abusive thing people can think of is to wish chain using Candles of Invocation. Great, your munchkin player wishes for a Candle of Invocation, so you go "sure, here's your CANDLE". I.e. partial success. Entirely within the rules as written, does not require genie's union or Godlike beings descending on the players to gangbang them or other such rubbish.

[tyckspoon]

(emphasis added)

So, apparently just about the most abusive thing people can think of is to wish chain using Candles of Invocation. Great, your munchkin player wishes for a Candle of Invocation, so you go "sure, here's your CANDLE". I.e. partial success. Entirely within the rules as written, does not require genie's union or Godlike beings descending on the players to gangbang them or other such rubbish.

Creating a magic item is on the explicit list of things Wish can reliably do, along with 'duplicate a spell', 'reverse misfortune', and all the other bullet points. That's why Wishing for Candles of Invocation is used. The actual munchkinly application of that power is to note that there is no limit given on the value of the items the Wish creates, so you get your Efreet to generate ludicrously Epic items like a +30 equivalent sword and a +40 Belt of Magnificence.

[Bobikus]

As it's worded, the partial wish fulfillment only applies if they wish for something that isn't a listed thing.

Regardless of any other rulings though, I do think that Wish's listed effects should only include magic items up to 15000gp. It was stupid to take that limit out in 3.5.

[Gullintanni]

Haha. On another forum I frequent we have a game thread, "Good Witch - Bad Witch". You make a wish. The next person who replies perverts your wish. Then it's this person's turn to make a wish.

That game does create some skill in wish-wording, but also shows that pretty much any wish can be perverted. (Only once we unanimously agreed that one guy had beat the game when he wished for sex with Sandra Bullock. Nobody could come up with a way to turn that into bad. XD )


That just means the next person in line wasn't sufficiently creative. See, in the infinite multiverse that is the standard D&D paradigm, there's going to be more than one person named Sandra Bullock. There's nothing stopping there from being *a* Sandra Bullock that happens to be thorny, sadistic, forceful, indiscriminate, of a gender not matching your expectations, and infected with a few select diseases.

To further expand this list, you didn't specify that she had to be alive at the time. Definite Wish-screw...pun intended.

[AtomicKitKat]

I'd say the fact that most of the world has _not_ been turned into one huge plane of fire ruled by Efreet, or Efreet being any more powerful that a mid-range encounter, is sufficient proof that these Genies cannot exploit their own Wish ability so easily. Certainly not by grabbing some mephit by the collar and forcing him to read that list they hand him.

Actually, anyone with the Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability, or someone else with Wish(hint, hint) goes "I wish X's Wish never occured/was not fulfilled.", snapping the time-stream back.


That game does create some skill in wish-wording, but also shows that pretty much any wish can be perverted. (Only once we unanimously agreed that one guy had beat the game when he wished for sex with Sandra Bullock. Nobody could come up with a way to turn that into bad. XD )

You did not specify what condition she would be in. Nor what manner of sex. Congratulations, you just had lesbian intercourse with her. Enjoy your womanhood.

Seconded on Wish not being allowed to create any item that requires itself as a spell component.

Edit: Or any spell with an XP cost.

[Havelock]

My take on it is that ALL services granted by creatures called in by planar binding must be paid for by you. Fiendish Codex II gives negative modifiers to your charisma check based on how much you ask of it, and you must then compensate it to get bonuses, and the value of the bonuses must at least equal the penalty for the task.

It might suck for the efreet, but in my world, they would all refuse to grant wishes without suitable compensation. It might be possible to find something he'd want from you that you'd find to be a fair trade, but never for free.

Try Geas and he'll just sit and rest and recover HP faster than he takes damage.
Dominate Monster works, and that's that.

The efreet line of thought is that by maintaining a policy of utter refusal, wizards will eventually give up trying until they can cast 9th level spells, and there's sufficiently few of such potency that they can accept the annoyance, and it will take too much expenditure to bring down a 17th+ level Wizard than it's worth. At that point they alert the Quaruts to deal with those who use Wish more than the comfort levels of the fabric of the universe can withstand.

[true_shinken]

Then you can phrase the request in a favorable way. You're not making the efreeti serve you.
Yes, you are. You're tricking him into servitude, no matter how you phrase it.

[Tvtyrant]

You did not specify what condition she would be in. Nor what manner of sex. Congratulations, you just had lesbian intercourse with her. Enjoy your womanhood.


Worth it. Totally. I pick Tiamat.

[Anxe]

From the SRD, "unreasonable commands are never agreed to." Perhaps in Efreeti culture it is unreasonable to grant wishes unless something equally valuable to the Efreeti is given in return. Actually that sounds reasonable in any culture.

Or you could make it work like the Genie in the Aladdin movies. Three wishes per person, not per day.

[DeltaEmil]

That's when then an annoyed player has to use dominate monster, charm monster, threaten it with gruesome death like having it drink water or something stupid like that, and then an annoyed gm has to counter it by arguing about how those spells don't let it grant wishes or that this specific efreet has an army of allies who are waiting just for that occasion, and then the annoyed player mentions that he has protected himself from scrying and teleporting and writes down assinine-long lawyer-formulated specifics how he's going to say his wish and argue that his character is actually even smarter than him, and the annoyed gm will then argue that his character is using modern-real-life knowledge and that the strike-monster-team has superior equipment that can penetrate his wards, and so on and on...

All gm's who allow wish to exist deseve that horrible scenario.

[lightningcat]

The other thing that I would use to stop the problem before it began is gate.

Gate



Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.

Planar Travel
As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.


If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.

XP Cost
1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).


Use of a powerful spell-like ability would count as "more involved" in my book, and would require a fair trade. Especially as it is not 3/day wish, but up to 3 wishes once per day.
Add in the fact that Efreet are notourious for twisting wishes, and few casters are going to try to abuse the situation, even if some do use it.

And while it will not slow down most players, the candle of invocation trick only works for lawful evil characters anyways.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

One spot-fix I tried for a mid-to-high level planar game where the PCs had plenty of interaction with genies was to change efreet and djinn (and the other genies, I let them grant wishes as well) so that they can only grant limited wishes if either the genie or the wisher is coerced. Wizard planar binds and dominates an efreeti? Limited wish. Efreeti forces its slave to read wishes it wants to grant? Limited wish. Efreeti is honestly bargained with and wisher honestly wants to make that wish? Full wish. It's an off-the-cuff solution, but it seemed to work well enough.

[Firechanter]

And while it will not slow down most players, the candle of invocation trick only works for lawful evil characters anyways.

That's not true. The candle gives some morale bonuses to characters of the same alignment burning it. And a cleric of the same alignment gets a caster level bonus.
But nowhere does it say that the calling of an outsider only works for the same alignment.

[Bobikus]

That's when then an annoyed player has to use dominate monster, charm monster, threaten it with gruesome death like having it drink water or something stupid like that, and then an annoyed gm has to counter it by arguing about how those spells don't let it grant wishes or that this specific efreet has an army of allies who are waiting just for that occasion, and then the annoyed player mentions that he has protected himself from scrying and teleporting and writes down assinine-long lawyer-formulated specifics how he's going to say his wish and argue that his character is actually even smarter than him, and the annoyed gm will then argue that his character is using modern-real-life knowledge and that the strike-monster-team has superior equipment that can penetrate his wards, and so on and on...

All gm's who allow wish to exist deseve that horrible scenario.

Limiting what wishes can do to a reasonable limit (a limit that was in 3.0 even) is a good middle ground between playing lawyer tactics with players or completely removing a top Wizard spell.

[The Cat Goddess]

The Efreet has an immortal life of practice, and unless you are very specific you won't get what you want; just what you asked for. There is also nothing that says where the the items/powers you wish for come from, what happens when the Great Wyrm that recently owned that trinket discovers hole in his loot and a signed note saying where it came from. :smallbiggrin:

^ This, seriously.

"Aw, did I forget to mention that Candle of Invocation you wished for came off the Altar of the Mad God, and now all of his followers know exactly where you are?"

[Jack_Simth]

To further expand this list, you didn't specify that she had to be alive at the time. Definite Wish-screw...pun intended.What list? That was just a single example. Another would be that some farmer decided to name his cow Sandra Bullock, and you've been Polymorphed (by Polymorph Any Object) into a bull, and teleported there. Sorry about the little issue that you don't retain your Int score, so you're now of animal intelligence, permanently. Oh yes, and that particular farmer isn't particularly concerned about how the extra bull got there, but he could use the meat.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Sorry about the little issue that you don't retain your Int score, so you're now of animal intelligence, permanently.

Oh, no no no. The efreeti wouldn't do that; he'd want anyone trying to take advantage of him to know exactly how screwed they are for the short time between meeting Sandra Bullock (or would that be Sandra Cow-ock?) and being served for dinner. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, no no no. The efreeti wouldn't do that; he'd want anyone trying to take advantage of him to know exactly how screwed they are for the short time between meeting Sandra Bullock (or would that be Sandra Cow-ock?) and being served for dinner. :smallamused:
... you're right. Sorry, I just don't have my diabolical hat on today.

[Tiki Snakes]

One spot-fix I tried for a mid-to-high level planar game where the PCs had plenty of interaction with genies was to change efreet and djinn (and the other genies, I let them grant wishes as well) so that they can only grant limited wishes if either the genie or the wisher is coerced. Wizard planar binds and dominates an efreeti? Limited wish. Efreeti forces its slave to read wishes it wants to grant? Limited wish. Efreeti is honestly bargained with and wisher honestly wants to make that wish? Full wish. It's an off-the-cuff solution, but it seemed to work well enough.

I like this actually. It's a good solution on many levels.