[3.5, E6] How suicidal is Quick?

[Zaq]

Just like it says on the tin . . . how suicidal is the Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait? I'm looking to get my Jump check up just a wee bit higher, and an extra 10 feet of movement (without having to dip anything) would be pretty perfect. That said, effectively lowering your CON by 2 is nothing to take lightly, so I'm torn.

This is an E6 game, so it's probably the difference between 38 HP and 32 HP (assuming a d8 HD, average HP per die, and 14 CON, which is what I'm looking at right now). This character's meant to be pretty dodgy, but he's also probably going to be in the thick of things, so there's always danger lurking around. I know that I could buy back the HP with Improved Toughness, but there are at least four or five feats I want before that can happen, so I really wouldn't count on that.

So yeah. I know it's a risky proposition, but I'm not quite sure just how risky it is. Come to think of it, are there any better sources of temp HP (bearing in mind a very strict CL 6 cap on items that can be made) than the Amulet of Tears? Getting one of those would make it hurt less, I think. Thoughts?

[Elric VIII]

An Eternal Wand of Aid (MIC 159) costs 820gp and is a 4th level item.

If 2/day is not enough, a 50-charge Wand of Aid is only 750.

EDIT: The Heartening property on a shield adds 5 temp hp 2/day for only +2000gp. It's a CL5 item.

[Kobold Esq]

An Eternal Wand of Aid (MIC 159) costs 820gp and is a 4th level item.

If 2/day is not enough, a 50-charge Wand of Aid is only 750.

E6 game is probably not full of 6th level clerics with Craft Wand.

[WeeFreeMen]

Don't think of it as "losing con"
Think of it as, "Investing in the means to retreat, if needed"

Cause +10 is quite awesome, especially in E6, movement trumps almost everything since not everything is running on strawberry flavored unicorn tears (ie: Spell components).

Not to mention, with a fair amount of jump, you can surely get away from anything land based using the terrain.

[Calimehter]

Get the Improved Toughness feat.

When combined with the trait, its sort of like upgrading Quick to a feat by eliminating the biggest downside (lost HP). Feats are more common in E6, so you shouldn't have to worry too much about "making room" for it in your planned feat trees.

[Tyndmyr]

It depends. Do you see necropolitan in your future? If so, con sacrifices are a win.

Improved toughness is also a way to fix it in E6.

[Volthawk]

Yeah, Improved Toughness solves it. It's a better deal than the only speed-increasing feat I can remember, Dash, which is just +5ft in certain circumstances. Of course, it does mean you lose the change to get Improved Toughness' bonus, but normal Toughness isn't too far away from that in E6 anyway.

[Firechanter]

How would you rate Quick in a high level game, say levels 16-20? Let's say, if the difference is whether the character has 180 or 200 hit points?

[manyslayer]

Yeah, Improved Toughness solves it. It's a better deal than the only speed-increasing feat I can remember, Dash, which is just +5ft in certain circumstances. Of course, it does mean you lose the change to get Improved Toughness' bonus, but normal Toughness isn't too far away from that in E6 anyway.

Forgotten Realms has a regional feat, Fleet of Foot, that increases speed by 10'.

[Volthawk]

Forgotten Realms has a regional feat, Fleet of Foot, that increases speed by 10'.

Huh, does it? Never really looked at regional feats, or FR stuff in general, really.

[Land Outcast]

It depends. Do you see necropolitan in your future? If so, con sacrifices are a win.
Just that "Quick" -RAW- doesn't imply a Con sacrifice but rather plain hp sacrifice.

[Tyndmyr]

Ah, well that's a problem then. On the other hand, for non-undead, sacrificing hp is superior to con. It results in not losing the bonus to con checks and fort saves.

Also, keep in mind that E6 has a list of special feats for it. One of those options involve getting bonus stats. There's also human paragon if the race matches. A solid choice.

[tyckspoon]

How would you rate Quick in a high level game, say levels 16-20? Let's say, if the difference is whether the character has 180 or 200 hit points?

The HP doesn't seem all that significant to me, but I'd still rather have it over the move speed. Because at that level, if you don't have at least a speed of 60, you just aren't trying and clearly don't care; there's enough move-increasing magic around, and most of it is quite affordable for a high-level character.

[Firechanter]

Really now? Except for Fly I can't think of much, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong books. Most items I know just give an Enhancement bonus which won't stack. There's some +5' armor crystal in the MIC but that's not so much. If you would enlighten me, that would be appreciated.

[Cieyrin]

Yeah, Improved Toughness solves it. It's a better deal than the only speed-increasing feat I can remember, Dash, which is just +5ft in certain circumstances. Of course, it does mean you lose the change to get Improved Toughness' bonus, but normal Toughness isn't too far away from that in E6 anyway.

Dwarf's Toughness (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Dwarf~s_Toughness) will net you the same effect but potentially earlier than Improved Toughness, especially if you dip another Good Fort class. Alternatively, any of the Psionic Body chains can get you there, especially with how E6 works. Finally, should you somehow manage it, Giant's (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Giant~s_Toughness) or Dragon's Toughness (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Dragon~s_Toughness) can also be nice.

EDIT:
Really now? Except for Fly I can't think of much, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong books. Most items I know just give an Enhancement bonus which won't stack. There's some +5' armor crystal in the MIC but that's not so much. If you would enlighten me, that would be appreciated.

Feathered Wing grafts from FF or the Phoenix cloak from MIC come immediately to mind.

[Firechanter]

The Phoenix Cloak allows you to fly, but it doesn't improve your speed. At least if I didn't miss any errata.

As for grafts, these have slipped past me, but either way, not everyone wants to become a wandering freak show or even compromise their alignment. So I'm not really convinced that this is a must-have for highlevel characters.

[Squark]

Speed of Thought offers a +10ft insight bonus to land speed, but only as long as you maintain your psionic focus.

With Quick and Speed of Thought, I actually figured out how to get a second level character to run the 100 yard dash in 4 seconds, actually (Run and Speed of Thought along with Quick as a Sorcerer with expedatious retreat, then take a level of barbarian to get your expedited speed up to 90 ft) (Speed of 90ft x5= Run 450 feet in a round. 450/6= 75 ft/s 300/75s =4s)


I actually took both quick and frail (Speed of Thought) for my current pbp character, but that's because I wanted to drop my HP total without killing my fortitude save (The character was supposed to be small and frail). Combine that with skate, and my 1st level hobgoblin lurk was moving at a speed of 65 ft/round at level 1.

On a side note, is spring attack worth it? It lets you abuse your absurd speed, but is taking dodge and mobility too much of a cost?

[Rixx]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fleet---final

If PF material is allowed, perhaps consider taking this twice instead. That being said, the 6 HP loss is probably worth it, since you'll be able to avoid a lot of hits simply by outpacing a lot of your foes.

[Squark]

Taking improved toughness beside quick seems decent. The net result is you got a better version of Speed of Thought, since it's an untyped bonus and always active.

[Gnaeus]

E6 game is probably not full of 6th level clerics with Craft Wand.

Why not? Craft wand is an awesome feat. Is there an E6 rule nerfing crafting? Seems to me that I would be MORE likely to take craft wand in E6, because wands don't scale past level 4 spells, so it would always be valuable. And I have feats to spare.

Also, the caster doesn't have to have the feat. Another caster can have the feat and the cleric can just contribute the spell. Is there no one in an E6 game with craft wands?

[Firechanter]

On a side note, is spring attack worth it? It lets you abuse your absurd speed, but is taking dodge and mobility too much of a cost?

I think it's quite horrible. 3 feats for a trick that you can do better with Tumble, because tumbling avoids all AoOs and not just the one from your target. Also, if you have such an outrageous speed, you can still move a fair distance if you tumble all the way.

[Chilingsworth]

An Eternal Wand of Aid (MIC 159) costs 820gp and is a 4th level item.

If 2/day is not enough, a 50-charge Wand of Aid is only 750.

EDIT: The Heartening property on a shield adds 5 temp hp 2/day for only +2000gp. It's a CL5 item.

Since when is Aid an arcane spell? :smallconfused:

Eternal wands can only be made of arcane spells, and only be used (without UMD) by characters able to cast arcane spells.

[Gadora]

Is there any chance you could pick up turn/rebuke undead? On the slim chance you can, you might be interested in divine vigor from Complete Warrior. It gives you an untyped 10 foot increase to speed, as well as giving you +2 temp HP per character level. The duration is measured in minutes, and based off of Cha.

Hope that helps, but I doubt it's likely to.

[Firechanter]

Well, if you are willing to pick up a level of Cleric or anything that gives Domain powers, take the Celerity domain -> bam, instant stacking +10' speed.

[The_Jackal]

Not very, if you take a class that has a good fort save. I think Quick is probably the best fit on a archer type ranger. You don't need the extra con because you're not in melee trading body blows, you still have a very respectable fort save, and the extra movement lets you completely abuse slower opponents by keeping the range open. Also, doesn't quick stack with longstrider?

[Cieyrin]

I think it's quite horrible. 3 feats for a trick that you can do better with Tumble, because tumbling avoids all AoOs and not just the one from your target. Also, if you have such an outrageous speed, you can still move a fair distance if you tumble all the way.

The problem with Spring Attack and Shot on the Run isn't that it only avoids your target's AoO, it's that you can only attack with it. Flyby Attack is what the doctor ordered, just need a fly speed, which becomes more available as you get into your Epic bonus feats, like Born Flyer.

EDIT:
Also, doesn't quick stack with longstrider?

Quick doesn't have a type, so it stacks with everything.

[Gnaeus]

Since when is Aid an arcane spell? :smallconfused:

Eternal wands can only be made of arcane spells, and only be used (without UMD) by characters able to cast arcane spells.

Well, you could have a caster with Arcane Disciple: good or luck. Sounds like a pretty poor feat choice to me, but it could happen.

[Cieyrin]

Well, you could have a caster with Arcane Disciple: good or luck. Sounds like a pretty poor feat choice to me, but it could happen.

Damn dragons and their weird arcane scrolls of Raise Dead and arcane wands of aid...

[Tyndmyr]

Since when is Aid an arcane spell? :smallconfused:

Eternal wands can only be made of arcane spells, and only be used (without UMD) by characters able to cast arcane spells.

I'm pretty sure that the latter part at least is explicitly not the case. Check MiC or it's initial source, Eberron. Eternal Wands behave exactly as 2 use/day wondrous items made per the dmg.

[manyslayer]

I'm pretty sure that the latter part at least is explicitly not the case. Check MiC or it's initial source, Eberron. Eternal Wands behave exactly as 2 use/day wondrous items made per the dmg.

From MIC (159-160):

An eternal wand holds a single arcane
spell of 3rd level or lower, determined
during creation. Any character who can
cast arcane spells can activate the wand
to use the spell contained in it, regard-
less of whether the spell appears on his
class spell list.
An eternal wand functions two times
per day.