[3.PF] Optimizing Patrick Jane, The Mentalist

[Rasman]

http://www.aueralis.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/mentalist01.jpg

While going though the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide and catching up on episodes of the show I just HAPPENED to pass over Bards and the Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Detective) alt class features. Thinking about it, I just can't help myself. I'm getting ready to get into a new campaign and...it's just FAR too amusing to not do. The hard thing about it is that Patrick Jane is anything BUT a combatant. So, how do I make a character that his big trick is avoiding combat and picking up the subtle details that give him the advantage in uncovering the truth and still be a valuable asset to the party?

A one level dip into Mindbender seems like a start for cheese. I also recall a feat that gives you Telepathic Blindsense, I just can't remember the name of it.

Aasimar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/aasimar) seems like the race of choice other than human or maybe Half-Elf.

Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir) would be an interesting alternative though...

I'm wanting to build for 20 levels, but playable from the ground up, which makes this hard(er).

[Gnorman]

Play a beguiler instead? The Detective class features aren't all that stellar, and the beguiler's ability to play with people's heads would make for a much keener Jane.

Still, regardless of what you choose, dip Mindbender at level 6 and pick up Mindsight (the feat you were thinking of, I believe - lets you pinpoint anything with an intelligence score [as well as how smart it is and its creature type] within the range of your telepathy).

[Iceforge]

Well, I think his skills is going to play a major part of his capabilities to be Patrick Jane.

He would need to max out:
(I dont play PF, so done this by finding a character sheet online, so might miss something if the sheet misses anything)

Bluff
Diplomacy
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Survival

In addition, all knowledge skills would be handy, bardic knowledge can substitute that a bit, and some sort of profession(hypnotist) and perform(acting) would also come in handy for his shinanigans

[Rasman]

Well, I think his skills is going to play a major part of his capabilities to be Patrick Jane.

He would need to max out:
(I dont play PF, so done this by finding a character sheet online, so might miss something if the sheet misses anything)

Bluff
Diplomacy
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Survival

In addition, all knowledge skills would be handy, bardic knowledge can substitute that a bit, and some sort of profession(hypnotist) and perform(acting) would also come in handy for his shinanigans

This is something I've ascertained as well, the only one I don't agree with is Survival since that's more of a Ranger/Druid thing.

Profession might be something I toy around with considering there could be interesting applications to it, but I tend to not use Profession since it tends to just eat up space.

Jane is just...so diverse...I think my list will look something like

Bluff*
Diplomacy*
Intimidate*
Linguistics
Perception*
Perform*
Sense Motive
Slight of Hand
Spellcraft*
Stealth
UMD

*for Always Max Ranks

I'll probably need to give him a fairly high Int to compensate, possibly take Kiss of the Nymph to give extra skill points as well.

As for his perform, I wonder if Oratory would be better than Acting because of Versatile Performance since Sense Motive is Wis based and I wouldn't have to dump points into Diplomacy.

Versatile Performance makes skill point allocation particularly important as well since one skill is really used for 3 skills in total.

Versatile Performance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Versatile-Performance-Ex-)

Also, not that I'm ignoring the suggestion, but I'm not sure Beguiler fits the character.

EDIT: I went back and looked at the Detective Class Options and realized Versatile Performance is replaces with Arcane Investigation, this poses the question, are Alt Class Options optional? i.e. if you take an 1 Alt Class Feature, do you have to take them all? I would think no, but I just want to clarify.

[Iceforge]

This is something I've ascertained as well, the only one I don't agree with is Survival since that's more of a Ranger/Druid thing.

Well, maybe not max, but he is so good at tracking leads whereever they are, and is several episodes when a corpse is found in the woods, he can analyse the area surrounding the corpse and by that analysis make pretty good conclusions about what happened.


snip.

Agree with almost everything there, the problem of constructing a Patrick Jane is that he is really exceptionally versatile, he needed to have very high Int, Wis and Cha scores, and for skills, he needs dips into almost every single one of them

He got some skills in at least:

Acrobatics - He used to be a carni
Appraise - He is very good at estimating value of almost everything
Bluff - Yeah, he does that a lot
Climb - Hmm, maybe not so much, but at least 1 rank I'd say
Diplomacy - Need we clarify?
Escape Artist - I seem to remember there being instances of him untying himself from being tied up?
Handle Animal - How he recently knew that the dog knew something more, he seems to have a natural empathy and understanding of animals
Intimidate - Yep, I missed that first time around
Knowledge (all of them) - is there anything that man doesn't know about?
Linguistics - Not entirely sure of any happenings related to it, but I got the impression that English is probarly not his only language
Perception - He notices almost every detail very fast
Perform - To fill in gaps
Profession - To fill in other gaps
Sense motive - he knows what you're thinking before you know yourself
Sleight of Hand - Notice his magic tricks and disappearing acts of objects, he got this down
Stealth - He can at least hide a little and be very sneaky at times
Survival - Tracking leads

Only one I dont agree with entirely from your list is "Spellcraft", but you put that to max rank, so why do you feel he need Spellcraft maxed out?

[Rasman]

Well, maybe not max, but he is so good at tracking leads whereever they are, and is several episodes when a corpse is found in the woods, he can analyse the area surrounding the corpse and by that analysis make pretty good conclusions about what happened.



Agree with almost everything there, the problem of constructing a Patrick Jane is that he is really exceptionally versatile, he needed to have very high Int, Wis and Cha scores, and for skills, he needs dips into almost every single one of them

He got some skills in at least:

Acrobatics - He used to be a carni
Appraise - He is very good at estimating value of almost everything
Bluff - Yeah, he does that a lot
Climb - Hmm, maybe not so much, but at least 1 rank I'd say
Diplomacy - Need we clarify?
Escape Artist - I seem to remember there being instances of him untying himself from being tied up?
Handle Animal - How he recently knew that the dog knew something more, he seems to have a natural empathy and understanding of animals
Intimidate - Yep, I missed that first time around
Knowledge (all of them) - is there anything that man doesn't know about?
Linguistics - Not entirely sure of any happenings related to it, but I got the impression that English is probarly not his only language
Perception - He notices almost every detail very fast
Perform - To fill in gaps
Profession - To fill in other gaps
Sense motive - he knows what you're thinking before you know yourself
Sleight of Hand - Notice his magic tricks and disappearing acts of objects, he got this down
Stealth - He can at least hide a little and be very sneaky at times
Survival - Tracking leads

Only one I dont agree with entirely from your list is "Spellcraft", but you put that to max rank, so why do you feel he need Spellcraft maxed out?

well, Spellcraft is a bit of a stretch, but it's mostly because he knows when someone is trying to pull HIS tricks on him, so he'd know and understand WHAT it was that they were doing. It's really something I'd expect of him if he lived in a world filled with Magic.

[The White Knight]

EDIT: I went back and looked at the Detective Class Options and realized Versatile Performance is replaces with Arcane Investigation, this poses the question, are Alt Class Options optional? i.e. if you take an 1 Alt Class Feature, do you have to take them all? I would think no, but I just want to clarify.

Read the paragraph on Alternate Class Features on page 72 of the APG. They are indeed all or nothing, much to my dismay as well. I'd love to stitch together a Bard using pieces from Arcane Duellist, Sandman, and Magician (or even just be any of the above while keeping the decent Bard class features they overwrite with useless crap), but alas.

[Iceforge]

Also, he is going to need a mechanic, possibly through "profession(medium)" that allows cold-reading, which he also uses a lot during the show

[Rasman]

Also, he is going to need a mechanic, possibly through "profession(medium)" that allows cold-reading, which he also uses a lot during the show

Cold Reading is something that would PROBABLY fall under Sense Motive as well...it really is a combination of a lot of different skills, but SM is the big one.

[FelixG]

It involves a small bit of combat but you could dip 2 levels of Hell Knight PRC ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/hellknight ) to get no save truth sense? If someone lies you know and they cant save against it! :smallbiggrin:

[ffone]

Neat thread. Much of this also applies to Neil Cafferty from "White Collar" - although he's a bit less focused on reading others' lies and more on lying himself, and would probably be more thief-y with open lock / disable device.

Seconding/thirding Beguiler with the above spells. Bard works too, as there are some bits where he captivates a large audience (i.e. Fascinate) - the bard's Inspire abilities which also reflect how, in the show, he rarely fights/shoots himself but he influences the morale of his allies (although arguably not for the better!) and makes witty comments as they physically take down bad guys.

Skills:

Bluff - he does this constantly
Gather Information - this reflects an urban 'lead tracking' better than Survival (possibly with the Urban Tracking feat from the SRD Unearthed Arcana / alt ranger)
Sense Motive - this sort of defines him and is the show's title; he's a nonmagical mind reader
Sleight of Hand - he's always planting things on other people or snatching them
Search, Spot, maybe Listen - very observant
Hide / Move Silently - he often tails people or hides to observe them when they think they're unobserved, so as to catch them red-handed
Diplomacy, maybe - although he seems like more of a bluffer, and would frequently use that 'trick someone into acting in the way you want for a round' usage of Bluff


In a magical world he'd probably favor divination, enchantment, and illusion. Bard and beguiler lists are both pretty good, and reflect his lack of direct damage actions. Detect Thoughts (bard or beguiler lists), Discern Lies (va a wand), illusion spells to trick people into doing things which reveal their guilt, etc.

In terms of optimization (in the OP title), do whatever - beguiler optimization will mostly involve magic, which isn't on the show, so the fidelity of the details is irrelevant.

For a nonmagical NPC Jane, Expert with the above skills, unusually good mental stats, and skill-booster feats.

[Rasman]

It involves a small bit of combat but you could dip 2 levels of Hell Knight PRC ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/hellknight ) to get no save truth sense? If someone lies you know and they cant save against it! :smallbiggrin:

Only one problem, if he starts as a bard, he can't be a Hell Knight since...wait a minute...Bards...can be Lawful...what the deuce?! I love you Paizo...srsly...I love you...

but...the proficiencies make it a bit of a stretch, so while it's a good idea, can't pull it off with what I'm going for...maybe for a Cohort though...that would be...amusing...Cho...Cho could be a Hell Knight...that would be amusing...


Neat thread. Much of this also applies to Neil Cafferty from "White Collar" - although he's a bit less focused on reading others' lies and more on lying himself, and would probably be more thief-y with open lock / disable device.

Seconding/thirding Beguiler with the above spells. Bard works too, as there are some bits where he captivates a large audience (i.e. Fascinate) - the bard's Inspire abilities which also reflect how, in the show, he rarely fights/shoots himself but he influences the morale of his allies (although arguably not for the better!) and makes witty comments as they physically take down bad guys.

Skills:

Bluff - he does this constantly
Gather Information - this reflects an urban 'lead tracking' better than Survival (possibly with the Urban Tracking feat from the SRD Unearthed Arcana / alt ranger)
Sense Motive - this sort of defines him and is the show's title; he's a nonmagical mind reader
Sleight of Hand - he's always planting things on other people or snatching them
Search, Spot, maybe Listen - very observant
Hide / Move Silently - he often tails people or hides to observe them when they think they're unobserved, so as to catch them red-handed
Diplomacy, maybe - although he seems like more of a bluffer, and would frequently use that 'trick someone into acting in the way you want for a round' usage of Bluff


In a magical world he'd probably favor divination, enchantment, and illusion. Bard and beguiler lists are both pretty good, and reflect his lack of direct damage actions. Detect Thoughts (bard or beguiler lists), Discern Lies (va a wand), illusion spells to trick people into doing things which reveal their guilt, etc.

In terms of optimization (in the OP title), do whatever - beguiler optimization will mostly involve magic, which isn't on the show, so the fidelity of the details is irrelevant.

For a nonmagical NPC Jane, Expert with the above skills, unusually good mental stats, and skill-booster feats.

I like the Beguiler, but I don't know that I like the fact that their casting is based off Int...even though it SORT of makes sense for Jane...hmm...considering the character type, he wouldn't wade into melee often, if ever...so I kind of doubt the Beguiler being the proper choice

[Thurbane]

That feat that lets you trick the truth out of someone - Master Manipulator (PHB II) - seems like a must have.

[Rasman]

That feat that lets you trick the truth out of someone - Master Manipulator (PHB II) - seems like a must have.

hmm...it's ALMOST exactly like the Detective Ability "True Confession" but if that one fails, then they can't be affected by it for 24 hours. The big difference is the fact that the Feat doesn't take Performance time, but it takes longer to pull off.

But that's almost too good to pass up on, especially since I can take the feat before I get the ability, it'll be good if there aren't time constraints or if I fail at the other one.

[ffone]

I like the Beguiler, but I don't know that I like the fact that their casting is based off Int...even though it SORT of makes sense for Jane...hmm...considering the character type, he wouldn't wade into melee often, if ever...so I kind of doubt the Beguiler being the proper choice

Wait, why would Beguilers wade into melee? They don't have (m)any touch range spells, I don't think? It's true they don't have many Long range spells either, mostly Close/Medium it seems. Jane avoids melee and so do Beguilers, yes?

[Morph Bark]

For those saying Patrick Jane would need ranks in Survival to track leads, the Urban Ranger variant gets Urban Tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking), which is based off Gather Information.

[Rasman]

Wait, why would Beguilers wade into melee? They don't have (m)any touch range spells, I don't think? It's true they don't have many Long range spells either, mostly Close/Medium it seems. Jane avoids melee and so do Beguilers, yes?

Cloaked Casting requires that you be in melee to use, I believe it says flanking, actually. Something along those lines.


For those saying Patrick Jane would need ranks in Survival to track leads, the Urban Ranger variant gets Urban Tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking), which is based off Gather Information.

lol...I ACTUALLY found that feat about an hour ago AND since it's Pathfinder, it makes it based off Diplomacy, since Gather Info was meshed into Diplomacy, so that's even better. It's a feat I'm REALLY considering.

I've actually found a rather LONG list of possible feats that fit the character and some that...are just useful...the two at the top, particularly the first, might be MUST haves. I found them all though Searching on the DND Toolshop by Savanasoft (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/index.html)


Investigate
Investigator
Negotiator
Force of Personality
Lingering Performance
Expanded Arcana
Harmonic Spell
Still Spell
Requiem
Negotiator
Skill Focus Perform
Battle Dancer
Subsonics
Snowflake Wardance
Versatile Performer
Blessed of the Seven Sisters
Master Manipulator
Doomspeak
Disguise Spell
Enchanting Song
Epic of the Lost King
Lyric Spell
Protection Devotion
Healing Devotion
Still Spell
Deceptive Spell
Invisible Spell
Darkstalker
Cloak Dance
Improved Diversion
Mastery of Twisted Shadow
Nonverbal Spell
Mindsight - Only if I take a 1 level dip into Mindbender
Urban Tracking

Now I just have to thin them down and decide what feats are worth it and what feats are not.

I only get 11 feats to work with, so I'll have to be more picky than I normally am.