Superheroes in D&D 3.5 - how would you handle them?

[Quietus]

An idea I've been toying with a lot lately has been one of, as the title suggests, a superhero game. I don't have the time or inclination to learn a new system for it, so I'd like to find some way to tack this onto D&D 3.5, and I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

So far, I know nothing about the plot, because my intention would probably be running it on these forums, and asking for interested players to give information about their character. Things like a basic origin story, the gist of their superhero abilities, what style of game they're after - a silver age "good vs. evil" thing, something more noir with a group of super powered anti-heroes, and then base the plot around what I've been given, and the NPCs in their backstories.

So far, my idea's been probably starting around level 9ish, with the goal of a tier 1-3 game, in terms of mechanical power. Characters would be built as normal, and then given abilities related to their powers on top of that. My problem here is that I keep coming back to basically giving spells as those abilities - someone with super speed, for example, starting out with a Longstrider effect always on, with Swift Expeditious Retreat X/day. Or someone with Flight getting always-on Jump, and Swift Fly X/day. That sort of thing. Eventually ramping up to full-on (ex) haste/fly, in those cases.

So, I guess my questions are these : Do those powers sound boring for superheroes? What would you think as a player? What about if we skipped straight to the full-on (ex) type abilities? What about as a DM, any thoughts on problems I'd have to watch out for, aside from the obvious higher level of power these characters would have? And finally, what sorts of powers do you think would be interesting, and how would you expect them to stack up mechanically?

[arguskos]

Oh man I'd be so all over this one.

Some ideas:
-Everyone has a base chassis of Fighter, Scout, Rogue, Barbarian, and other non-caster classes. Then, you gain at-will or x/day SLAs that are related to your superhero powers (like, a Sunfire-type character might be a Scout with a bunch of fire-themed powers).
-Use the Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).
-A gestalt where everyone has to be half-caster, half-martialist could be excellent. That way, everyone has that uncanny superhero knack of being amazing at their thing and at being a badass who punches people out.

No matter what, I do think some innate SLAs/Ex abilities would be called for, especially for heroes that are tough to duplicate mechanically (like anyone involving time; someone like Magneto; similarly tricky concepts for 3.5).

[Amnestic]

Warforged Warlock: Iron Man :smallamused:

I think arguskos has the right idea; mostly base non-caster classes with a bunch of SLAs and Ex things to them. There would need to be some casters of course, like Dr. Strange.

You'd need to make sure that there can be martial heroes too though - people like Batman and Green Arrow who don't actually have any powers, just their wealth of trickery and skills.

[Tyndmyr]

-A gestalt where everyone has to be half-caster, half-martialist could be excellent. That way, everyone has that uncanny superhero knack of being amazing at their thing and at being a badass who punches people out.

I would do this. Also, I would allow focused specialization(to an even greater degree) in non-traditional schools. So, a pyro-type character could get a ludicrous amount of spell slots, but all of them must have a fire descriptor.

[arguskos]

Warforged Warlock: Iron Man :smallamused:
Or, Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276). :smallcool:

[Quietus]

Hmm... well, my preference is going to be getting character information before I give any kind of mechanical requirements, but I think that the idea of all Martial classes with a selection of always active and x/day abilities is probably the best. The gestalt martial/caster stuff I think pigeonholes characters too much, but most superheroes I can think of (with a couple exceptions) can be built on a fighter or rogue type base plus a couple of other abilities. That's a start - given that, what do you think would be the most difficult type of abilities to stat up? Alternatively, what types of powers would you want to have in a game like that?

[arguskos]

Hmm... well, my preference is going to be getting character information before I give any kind of mechanical requirements, but I think that the idea of all Martial classes with a selection of always active and x/day abilities is probably the best. The gestalt martial/caster stuff I think pigeonholes characters too much, but most superheroes I can think of (with a couple exceptions) can be built on a fighter or rogue type base plus a couple of other abilities. That's a start - given that, what do you think would be the most difficult type of abilities to stat up? Alternatively, what types of powers would you want to have in a game like that?
Most difficult? Time manipulation powers, for sure, just because that translates to action economy in 3.5, which is a dangerous area to mess around in.

What I'd personally want? One of a few things:
-Teleportation and martial skill, ala Nightcrawler (basically Teflammar Shadowlord).
-Radiation-based fire powers, ala Sunfire (basically a sorcerer with fire spells).
-Better teleportation, ala Cloak (from Cloak and Dagger; he's got some combat ability, so maybe Shadow Pounce again).
-A tech-character, something like Dr. Doom (man he's awesome; lightning blasts, flight, lots of tech abilities, maybe Artificer?).
-A guy infused with the power of the universe (Silver Surfer; could do a whole ton of stuff, fly, heal people, shoot energy beams, move at absurd speeds, look cool, etcetcetc).

Yeah I have some favorite characters. Why do you ask? :smalltongue:

[Quietus]

As long as it wasn't at-will total time freeze or really high level time manipulation, I think it'd be okay; haste and slow at will would be fine, I think, plus maybe a built-in Belt of Battle effect on the person. Nothing too crazy, but enough to mark them as being able to do unique things.

The amusing thing with many of those characters you've listed is that most of them, if not all, can be more or less recreated simply by access to the right books, without even adding special abilities. Of course, being able to say "I've got the shadowpounce ability without spending feats on it", and then tacking that onto just about any build... The hardest of those you listed, I think, would be Silver Surfer - not because of power level, that's easy to do, but rather because of the sheer versatility in what he can do.

[RTGoodman]

A note, not necessarily for this but for future reference: check out Mutants & Masterminds. It's a superhero RPG build on the d20 System chassis. Not exactly like 3.x, but close enough to make it easy to learn. (I've got it, but no one wants to play superhero games 'round here.)

[PanNarrans]

Warlock (Complete Arcane) and Champion (by Rich Burlew, in the gaming section of this site) are designed for this.

[arguskos]

As long as it wasn't at-will total time freeze or really high level time manipulation, I think it'd be okay; haste and slow at will would be fine, I think, plus maybe a built-in Belt of Battle effect on the person. Nothing too crazy, but enough to mark them as being able to do unique things.
Well, I mean, some superheroes CAN do time freezing and time travel and stuff.

Also, another tough one would be the probability-altering abilities of Wanda Maximoff (also known as the Scarlet Witch).

Oh, and someone like Quicksilver or the Flash would be tough too, since you've got to make super-speed matter for more than punching people.


The amusing thing with many of those characters you've listed is that most of them, if not all, can be more or less recreated simply by access to the right books, without even adding special abilities. Of course, being able to say "I've got the shadowpounce ability without spending feats on it", and then tacking that onto just about any build... The hardest of those you listed, I think, would be Silver Surfer - not because of power level, that's easy to do, but rather because of the sheer versatility in what he can do.
Indeed. My personal tastes are fairly easy to achieve. Surfer would be awesome though, even if he'd be difficult to replicate.

I wonder what Galactus or Apocalypse would look like in 3.5 stats.

[Shpadoinkle]

The hardest of those you listed, I think, would be Silver Surfer - not because of power level, that's easy to do, but rather because of the sheer versatility in what he can do.

Cleric.

Anyway, now that the obligatory flippant comment is out of the way, Silver Surfer's power is a boon directly from Galactus, who, if we were to draw a parallel to established D&D canon, would be the equivalent of Forgotten Realms' Ao- basically the god of gods. He's so far BEYOND the gods that the words "the god of gods" are inadequate to describe him.

And Norrin Radd is this guy's right-hand man.

So, just using published D&D materials I'm familiar with, Silver Surfer would be a normal human (or whatever he is) with a template that sends his stats sky-high, and a Spellfire wielder, except he doesn't have to absorb spells. As he was originally a scientist, any class levels he has would most likely be in expert, although I could see someone making a case for something like artificer. Smart hero from d20 modern might be more accurate.

Now, as for the original point of the thread: Any chararacters beyond about level 6 are already more or less superhuman, simply by virtue of what they can achieve WITHOUT magic, and by level 9 they're explicitly superhuman, able to match (or outdo) stuff mythological Greek heroes did.

[Cespenar]

Permanent Foresight, aka Spidey-sense! :smalltongue:

Anyway, one suggestion I would make is to make use of/draw inspiration from cool abilities of relatively unused prestige classes. Like Shadowdancer and Mindspy, for example.

[Tvtyrant]

I would say Gestalted Tier 3s, with ToB+Binder/Duskblade/Beguiler/whatever to get the effect of lots of different powers but can be built around a theme.

[Frozen_Feet]

... any reason you can't just let them play as normal classes? High-level D&D characters are superheroes, just with a different name.

Sorcerer, with their limited amount of spells known, can model a wide range of different supers. Wanna be the guy with fire powers? Pick Burning hands, Scorchin Ray, Fireball. Superman? Flight, Ocular Spell, Stone Skin etc.

Wanna be martial hero? Any of the ToB classes, with some dipping would do. Batman-type? Factotum with a dip in Chameleon.

Really, all you need is already there. No need to homebrew a darn thing.

[Quietus]

... any reason you can't just let them play as normal classes? High-level D&D characters are superheroes, just with a different name.

Sorcerer, with their limited amount of spells known, can model a wide range of different supers. Wanna be the guy with fire powers? Pick Burning hands, Scorchin Ray, Fireball. Superman? Flight, Ocular Spell, Stone Skin etc.

Wanna be martial hero? Any of the ToB classes, with some dipping would do. Batman-type? Factotum with a dip in Chameleon.

Really, all you need is already there. No need to homebrew a darn thing.

Because I want to do something outside the norm? What's wrong with that? Is there any reason you feel the need to point out that I'm having fun wrong?

I'm trying to go for something that's a different feel from a typical game, by giving players (and villains) access to powers that a class *normally wouldn't have*. You aren't Joe McSorcerer with Flight, Ocular Spell, and Stone Skin - you're something else entirely, something that NO OTHER SORCERER can hope to be. Whether the game goes Silver Age, beating up baddies in the name of Justice, or something more Noir where we go at a lower level (and lower power level) and examine the more difficult points of being a superhero is entirely up to the players, but I think adding this little bit to it would be fun.

[Jack_Simth]

An idea I've been toying with a lot lately has been one of, as the title suggests, a superhero game. I don't have the time or inclination to learn a new system for it, so I'd like to find some way to tack this onto D&D 3.5, and I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

So far, I know nothing about the plot, because my intention would probably be running it on these forums, and asking for interested players to give information about their character. Things like a basic origin story, the gist of their superhero abilities, what style of game they're after - a silver age "good vs. evil" thing, something more noir with a group of super powered anti-heroes, and then base the plot around what I've been given, and the NPCs in their backstories.

So far, my idea's been probably starting around level 9ish, with the goal of a tier 1-3 game, in terms of mechanical power. Characters would be built as normal, and then given abilities related to their powers on top of that. My problem here is that I keep coming back to basically giving spells as those abilities - someone with super speed, for example, starting out with a Longstrider effect always on, with Swift Expeditious Retreat X/day. Or someone with Flight getting always-on Jump, and Swift Fly X/day. That sort of thing. Eventually ramping up to full-on (ex) haste/fly, in those cases.

So, I guess my questions are these : Do those powers sound boring for superheroes? What would you think as a player? What about if we skipped straight to the full-on (ex) type abilities? What about as a DM, any thoughts on problems I'd have to watch out for, aside from the obvious higher level of power these characters would have? And finally, what sorts of powers do you think would be interesting, and how would you expect them to stack up mechanically?

About the simplest way is gestalt - fixed class on the off side: Wilder (possibly letting them get access to spells, too, with some variation on the Erudite Spells-to-powers variant). The other side is a normal (or normal-ish) build. If you let LA apply to just one side (the non-fixed side), you can do a lot with it - strange creatures, whatever.

Dr. Strange and similar? Wizard / Cleric as the non-fixed, picks his Wilder powers based on stuff he uses a lot. The Incredible Hulk? Well, he's a Barbarian / werebear, and his Wilder side includes a number of buffs. Batman? All his wilder powers focus on information gathering. His main class is a little rogue and a lot of swordsage. And so on.

[Essence_of_War]

Psychic Warriors (and really, most psionic classes!) are awesome for simulating super-heroes.

So are martial adepts and classes with lots of "at wills".

[Cerlis]

i'd imagine you could use warlock as a template. they have limited magic spells usable at will.

a non OP superman would just be a warlock with the flying invocation, the eldritch essence that allows you to do your blast with a melee attack (for punching) , normal blast (laser eyes) anda custom greater invocation that mimicks some spell that gives DR 20/adamant or something.

isnt there a section on making your own invocations? you could pretty much take any spell and balance it to an at will version (which might be balanced insofar as the fact that though they gain "spells" they get limited amount)

--------

but i do think the best route would be to have a semi gestalt. where you pick bruiser, speedster, trickster (fighter/barbarian, Ranger/monk, rogue) ish template and then have a 4.0 ish table that says : At 3rd level you gain a bonus feat or bonus power/spell like ability of 1st level usable at-will/1d4 rounds or manuever

[Dr.Epic]

You should incorporate barbarian rage except allow them to be all giant and be green.

Another thing should be they could be a fallen god.

And maybe one guy has like power armor that let's him fly and shot lazers.

And maybe one guy has like super serum and a cool shield.

Wait, that sounds familiar...

[Tvtyrant]

You could give them access to epic level feat trees with much lower reqs so that their characters would have lots of weird powers. Just keep out Epic Casting and your good.

[AustontheGreat1]

These are some base classes with unique abilities that are similar to super powers
Gravity Warrior (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Warrior_(3.5e_Class))
Jumper (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Jumper_(3.5e_Class))
Sonic Warrior (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Warrior_(3.5e_Class))
Time Bender (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Bender_(3.5e_Class))
Time Walker (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Walker_(3.5e_Class))
Psionic Variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102135) by ErrantX. These can be a good way to give special unique to the players.

Maybe you can use these.

[Quietus]

Hmmm... I'm thinking now that the best way to do this would be a half-gestalt thing, going normal build on one side, and then tacking on a Wilder's powers known/PP per day, allowing players to pick from Powers or Spells for their "powers" known. I was considering the SLA type stuff, but I think that this would be a simpler, more elegant method.

The only problem I see.. Wilder is based on Charisma. Do I leave that as is, or do I swap it to something else? Let's say someone wants to play Juggernaut; should they really need a high Charisma score? Should I let their powers available/bonus PP per day be based on different stats? If so, which? Option between Charisma and Con, or simply based on their highest stat?

Credit goes to Jack_Simth for the Wilder point out, and to everyone who's been insisting that gestalt would be fine. So now the question becomes, does anyone see a way that this would NOT work? A particular superhero concept that couldn't be supported with two first-level abilities, and one of each higher level as they come available?

[arguskos]

The only problem I see.. Wilder is based on Charisma. Do I leave that as is, or do I swap it to something else? Let's say someone wants to play Juggernaut; should they really need a high Charisma score? Should I let their powers available/bonus PP per day be based on different stats? If so, which? Option between Charisma and Con, or simply based on their highest stat?
I'd let it be either Cha or Con, though a few really niche characters might be mildly off-put (but not much, since Con is so universally nice to have).


Credit goes to Jack_Simth for the Wilder point out, and to everyone who's been insisting that gestalt would be fine. So now the question becomes, does anyone see a way that this would NOT work? A particular superhero concept that couldn't be supported with two first-level abilities, and one of each higher level as they come available?
Super*heroes*, no, I can't think of any. I think there's some supervillains that might get tough, but they tend to be tough anyways (due to tending towards the omglolbbq) overpowered end of the spectrum. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there are some who wouldn't want Wilder abilities. Mostly characters who are lower powered or non-supernatural. You *could* refluff it, but again, probable corner cases exist. Overall though, I can't think of much.

[Essence_of_War]

Batman for example wouldn't like being a wilder.

Martial adept, rogue, ranger (for track/favored enemy/HiPS?) are all options though. I've cooked up a neat build for him at one point that was like a Warblade//Rogue that would prob work well.

Wolverine probably wouldn't like being a wilder. He works better as some mix of mundane classes with clever picking of races/templates to nab the sweet regeneration.

Colossus would be probably ok with being a wilder, he really wants the "Expansion" and "Iron Body" powers. Have him be an educated wilder to nab "Expansion" with "expanded knowledge" but I don't think he gets access to "Iron Body" until 15th level or so.

There might be a better way to build him using Incarnum and Essentia?

[Jack_Simth]

Batman for example wouldn't like being a wilder.A little refluffing and it actually works. His powers are his gadgets - Hypercognition for the bat-computer, for instance. You use the other side of the gestalt for a standard batman build - Rogue, Factotum, Swordsage, something similar, or a mix of the four.

[Quietus]

A little refluffing and it actually works. His powers are his gadgets - Hypercognition for the bat-computer, for instance. You use the other side of the gestalt for a standard batman build - Rogue, Factotum, Swordsage, something similar, or a mix of the four.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, and really, if I go "This is what I have in mind, but I'm open to other ideas if you don't think it'd fit", then I don't think that'd be unreasonable.

As far as villains go - Well, they don't follow the rules, do they? :smallamused: I would try and stick to the normal rules as as best I can, but sometimes it does take just a little bit of a tweak here and there to get the exact image I had in mind. And I don't feel any problems with doing that, if it makes for a more interesting story.

I think the other end of the spectrum is weaknesses - I might have each player dictate one weakness that would strip them of their Wilder-based abilities. Similarly, the villains would have the same sort of thing. Lex Luthor's a brilliant bastard, but when it comes right down to it, he's still just a fleshbag.

[Zonugal]

You could also take a look in the second Dungeon Master's Guide for some guidance, specifically at the 'special' npc section. Taking Lex Luthor for example he may be a mortal but he would certainly have the Intelligence Paragon gift.