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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5, E6] Orcish Warlord Arena (or how I turned D&D into a skirmish game)



Cieyrin
2011-03-03, 02:56 PM
I've had this idea bouncing around in my head that I've come back to a couple times now, with more nuts and bolts hammered out but the basic premise is this:

Every player is an Orcish Warlord (PrC from Races of Faerun), with their own warband. They clash with other warbands to determine leadership of the horde before descending on the lands below.

There's a couple of technical details that need ironing out, as well as figuring out actual game flow so that it can run smoothly as either a RL tabletop or a PbP. I want to add some action phases beyond just having a tourney, like espionage and reconnaissance, equiping and crafting and perhaps random events.

Right now, I think the baseline rules will be as the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821) Rules, Fix and Ban list, with the obvious exception that Leadership is in, since it's a requirement for Orcish Warlord. Also, as evidenced by the the title, E6 rules (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6) apply as well, though I'll be hammering out what version to play with in the future. I am considering whether or not to use Yora's E6 Leadership variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187472) at this time, so there's some actual variance between warbands.

I'm also in the process of rewriting the first level of Orcish Warlord so that the only means of entry is full BAB, as well as being actually valuable for non-martial characters. I also have some other ideas that I'll post as I get them more formalized.

Finally, just so we're clear: I'M NOT RECRUITING AT THIS TIME. I've had trouble with people whining at me about things I run before I'm ready to, so let's just keep that in mind, 'kay?

So, Playground, do we have any interest in this and what should we do with this to get it in a working fashion, neh? :smallbiggrin:

Current Rules
Orcish Warlord Redux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10487527&postcount=5)
ToS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821) Rules, Fix and Ban List
Orcish Warlord Legality Sheet (OWLS) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TRNbFGaxBAtso3Ju592QRHIWAOwFMZYRvvZuSJ8m0W4/edit?hl=en&authkey=CObNmvQK#)
E6 Rules (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6)
Yora's E6 Leadership Variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187472)
War Purse/Cohort & Followers rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10502282&postcount=15)

Amphetryon
2011-03-03, 03:11 PM
Aside from the sources listed in the OP, what additional sources would be fair game? Anything not banned in the ToS?

Psyborg
2011-03-03, 03:19 PM
They clash with other warbands to determine leadership of the horde before descending on the lands below.

Nonlethal combat only and/or surrender at a certain number of casualties? It'd be good if there was actually still a horde when you descended on the lands below. Or is that being handwaved? :smallbiggrin:

Cieyrin
2011-03-03, 03:30 PM
Aside from the sources listed in the OP, what additional sources would be fair game? Anything not banned in the ToS?

Right now, any source is fair game as according to the ToS. That may change later on, as problems occur. Just cite your sources and we'll go from there.


Nonlethal combat only and/or surrender at a certain number of casualties? It'd be good if there was actually still a horde when you descended on the lands below. Or is that being handwaved? :smallbiggrin:

What kind of orcs do nonlethal combat? :smallconfused:

As for win conditions, I leave that to the individual warbands, though generally killing/capturing the opposing leader or routing their troops will result in a win. I think absorbing failed warbands could be illustrated with a permanent +1 to the victorious warband's Leadership score per battle would probably be in order, though alliances between warbands is also a possibility.

Cieyrin
2011-03-03, 06:20 PM
Let's put my money where my mouth is and rewrite Orc Warlord so that it's actually actually E6 compliant and does what it's supposed to. The requirements up to feats seem like you should be able to get in at ECL 6, which is what I'll make it do after I smack it once upside it's head.

Orcish Warlord
Hit Die: d10

Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +5 OR
Skills: Any skill 8 ranks (besides Intimidate) OR
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells or powers

In addition:
Race: Orc or half-orc
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks, Survival 4 ranks

Class skills: The orcish warlord's class skills (and the key ability for each skill are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Class Features

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Gather Horde, Leadership|+1 level of existing class features[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Orcish Warlords gain no proficiency with any weapons, armor or shields.
Class Features: Orcish Warlords gain class features (including spellcasting/manifesting/etc. ability) and an increase to effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the level of Orcish Warlord. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class's Hit Dice, attack progression, skill points or saving throws. If you had more than one class before becoming an orcish warlord, you must decide to which class to add for purposes of determining a class features.
Gather Horde (Ex): An orcish warlord can maintain a larger force of orc followers than a comparable leader could of other creatures. When determining the number of followers allowed for a warlord, double the amount listed in the Leadership table (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187472). These additional forces must be orcs. For example, a character with a Leadership score of 10 would normally have 10 1st level followers and 1 2nd level follower. An Orcish Warlord could have 20 1st level followers and 2 2nd level follower, as long as 10 of those 1st level followers and 1 of those 2nd level followers were orcs.
Leadership: Orcish warlords carry a big enough stick to whip lesser orcs into following him into carnage and raiding. An orcish warlord gains Leadership as a bonus feat.

ex cathedra
2011-03-03, 07:30 PM
Heya, Cie. I approve of this. I would suggest not using the ToS banlist immediately, simply because it's hard to parse and the majority of it isn't relevant to this format.

Cieyrin
2011-03-03, 11:41 PM
Heya, Cie. I approve of this. I would suggest not using the ToS banlist immediately, simply because it's hard to parse and the majority of it isn't relevant to this format.

Yeah, you're probably right. I have no issue with the core classes as written. Let's say for now The Great Rules through Unearthed Arcana are on the table, with the rest to be included later on, as this doesn't need to be the tip top of optimization. Just wanted some gentleman's agreements in place so we don't have rocket tag.

ex cathedra
2011-03-04, 03:56 PM
I appreciate the inclusion of the "Class Features" mechanic. :smallwink:

Is the "any non-good" requirement really that important?

Eloel
2011-03-04, 05:27 PM
It's kinda funny how Orc Wizards can be Warlords but Orc Sorcerers cannot. Latter seems to make more sense than the former in my mind, but yea, that's my opinion.

Cieyrin
2011-03-04, 05:31 PM
It's kinda funny how Orc Wizards can be Warlords but Orc Sorcerers cannot. Latter seems to make more sense than the former in my mind, but yea, that's my opinion.

Gah! You are absolutely right! Deep Orc Sorcerer Warlords should feel welcome among us and I'll change that shortly.

As for alignment, it's staying in. I don't much care for Exalted Warlords.

Finally, the ToS List is being revised for the Arena and you should expect that some time over the weekend.

Actually, scratch that, the revised Orcish Warlord Legality Sheet (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TRNbFGaxBAtso3Ju592QRHIWAOwFMZYRvvZuSJ8m0W4/edit?hl=en&authkey=CObNmvQK#) is up for viewings! Go, look and come back and talk about it, neh?

To make things slightly easier, here's a list of races that can be Warlords:

Half-Orc (PHB/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm#halfOrcs)
Mountain Orc (MM/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm)
Aquatic Half-Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticHalfOrcs)
Aquatic Orcs (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticOrcs)
Arctic Half-Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticHalfOrcs)
Arctic Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticOrcs)
Desert Half-Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs)
Desert Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertOrcs)
Jungle Half-Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleHalfOrcs)
Jungle Orc (UA/SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleOrcs)
Scablands Half-Orc (Sand)
Frostblood Half-Orc and Orc (DM)
Changeling (RoE) (With Racial Emulation :smallamused:)
Grey Orc (RoF) (LA +1)
Orog (RoF) (LA +2)
Tanarukk (RoF) (RHD 5/LA +3)

Many cookies to an effective Tanarukk Warlord! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I'd like to point out Might Makes Right (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Might_Makes_Right) before someone goes on about Cha penalties.

Kensen
2011-03-05, 03:48 AM
The Leadership feat doesn't say what classes and stats your followers get, and I think it would be fun if you could spend xp or... vp (victory points?) or something to unlock new classes and other things. I.e. "vanilla" orc followers are warriors with the standard array for abilities, but if you unlock the ranger class, you can thereafter gain ranger followers. Magic-using classes should be restricted somehow as it would be unbalancing to have an army of druids (with animal companions).

If you want to simplify things, you could also make weapon upgrades unlockable in a similar fashion. Not realistic, but a lot easier than equipping each follower individually and calculating gp costs. The xp/vp cost should be proportionate to the price of the weapon/armor in question.

Temassasin
2011-03-05, 09:57 AM
The Leadership feat doesn't say what classes and stats your followers get, and I think it would be fun if you could spend xp or... vp (victory points?) or something to unlock new classes and other things. I.e. "vanilla" orc followers are warriors with the standard array for abilities, but if you unlock the ranger class, you can thereafter gain ranger followers. Magic-using classes should be restricted somehow as it would be unbalancing to have an army of druids (with animal companions).

If you want to simplify things, you could also make weapon upgrades unlockable in a similar fashion. Not realistic, but a lot easier than equipping each follower individually and calculating gp costs. The xp/vp cost should be proportionate to the price of the weapon/armor in question.

i agree except for magic using. i think you could put them in but you have to do a quest or something and they have high cost (also maybe animal companions and things like them require extra spending though low i should be)

Cieyrin
2011-03-05, 11:09 AM
i agree except for magic using. i think you could put them in but you have to do a quest or something and they have high cost (also maybe animal companions and things like them require extra spending though low i should be)

Yeah, I had concern about the magic using bit and I was thinking to restrict casting to the Warlord and cohort, at least initially.

As for the VP idea, that is an interesting idea, ala FF Tactics, Disgaea, etc. I was currently in development of replacing WBL with a war purse but that might be a better method.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-05, 07:07 PM
How about having multiple currencies all around? Like after each battle you get normal war purse money, but you also get other, rarer points you can use for different things, whether it be reputation (leadership bonuses?), unlocking classes (like Kensen's idea), ect. Perhaps spellcaster training can be bought with Magic Points, which can also used to obtain magic items. Maybe you can buy a fort, and have half your battles be on your turf from then on. We could even have an orcish "tech tree."

This might be sounding a bit too much like an RTS though.

Cieyrin
2011-03-06, 03:31 AM
With much thinking done, I present the War Purse and initial Follower/Cohort rules!

The War Purse
The Warlord, his/her cohort and followers do not get WBL, PC or otherwise. Instead, the Warlord's receives initial funds equal to 10,000 gp + 1,500 gp/point of Leadership to equip himself/herself and his/her troops. Fluctuations in Leadership score following creation do not gain or lose war funds, though followers may desert.

Cohorts and Followers
Cohorts may be of any race and class, like the Warlord, though must be within 1 alignment step of the Warlord.
Common Followers (i.e. 1st level) are initially restricted to the Warrior and Expert base classes. At Leadership score 10, 12 and 14, when a Warlord gets Elite followers (i.e. 2nd+ Level), you may add one of the following classes to your available class list:

Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Hexblade
Swashbuckler
Spellthief
Scout
Knight

This includes any variants of the above classes. Initially, only elite followers may be of these added classes. Training new troops, even common followers, following warband creation allows drawing from the warlord's expanded class list. Unlike the War Purse, hitting the Leadership threshold for the first time will get you this free class expansion.

I'll go into troop equipment packages, economy, unlocking more classes later, after I get some sleep. I think I've exhausted my fey mood for now.

UPDATE: The War-Marked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187987) is now a base class option for Warlords and cohorts. When I formulate research options, they'll be included as an unlock.

Kensen
2011-03-07, 06:42 AM
Here's an idea for a "technology tree". It has three fields of research: Crafting, Breeding and Training.

Crafting covers weapons, armor and other equipment. Initially, your orcs get a leather armor, small wooden shield and morningstar each, but if you unlock crafting technologies, they'll get javelins, chainmail, falchions, etc. You can freely equip your followers with any weapon/armor you have unlocked.

Breeding technologies give your orcs better ability scores, full hp at first level, and other similar benefits. "Vanilla" orcs have Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6, which means they make decent warriors, but they're simply too dumb to learn spells (which means it's not absolutely necessary to restrict spellcasting classes).

Finally, Training covers your followers' class options. Initially, you only get NPC classes, but you can later unlock PC classes.

It may be a good idea to give each player a number of unit type "slots", i.e. to avoid a bookkeeping hell, only a set number of different orc types should be allowed, but each slot should be customizable between battles, i.e. you can swap equipment.

Just my 2 cents. :smallsmile:

Hazzardevil
2011-03-20, 04:50 AM
I think it would be a good idea to let psionic guys become warlords. A guy who can point at someone and fling them in the air is going to impress the hoard.

ex cathedra
2011-03-20, 01:13 PM
Psionic character already can become Orc Warlords. It's explicitly stated that the requirements allow second-level manifesting instead of spells, and that the OW advances manifesting as part of the Existing Class Features ability.

Hazzardevil
2011-03-30, 02:48 PM
I have a new suggestion for the skirmish idea. Maybe you can buy magic items and such like in groups of 10 for the same cost so you can either have elite squads outfitted with lots of magical items or a large number of weaker orcs.
I have realised an issue with this system however. What is to stop someone having armies of dread necromancers with a cleric leader desecrating their base and creating massive armies of zombies or wights.

ex cathedra
2011-03-30, 04:15 PM
That isn't an issue because followers can't be dread necromancers.

Cieyrin
2011-03-31, 03:36 PM
That isn't an issue because followers can't be dread necromancers.

At least initially, anyways. I'm still working out how stuff works and, due to a recent move, I don't have as much internet access as I used to, which in turn may mean I can do more project work, since I have fewer distractions. Time will tell, I guess...