Best ways to bypass high-level DR?

[Firechanter]

Suppose you're a Melee type that fights stuff with various types of DR often. Only thing you don't need to worry about is fighting Good creatures with DR X/Evil. But Demons and Devils are all fair game. What are the best ways to reliably bypass any DR thrown at you?

Of course, for X/Good you get the Fiendslayer Crystals so you got that Angle covered. But:
for Demons you often need Cold Iron
for Devils and Lycanthropes etc. you need Silver
For (the better) Golems you need Adamantine,
besides it's always good to have an Adamantine wep so you can smash most stuff and your weapon isn't sundered as easily.
anything else?


Are there cheap ways (like Crystals) to bypass /Law or /Chaos DRs?

Basically I see two approaches:
A) get a Metalline weapon, that can transform into any of these metals. Quite a price hike at +2 bonus.
B) get an Adamantine (or Starmetal) weapon. Either apply Silversheen or wear Bracers (I forget the name) that let your weapon count as Silver.
That leaves out the Cold Iron side, so you need a backup weapon, which also needs to be magical to accept a Lesser Fiendslayer Crystal.

BTW, what are actually the valid rules for enchanting Cold Iron weapons now? The MIC writes something completely different from the SRD.

If each single +1 on a Cold Iron costs an extra 2000, then actually a Metalline seems to be cheaper all the way, if you want the same amount of properties against all enemies.

OR is the smart thing to do: have a Cold Iron primary weapon with all the enchantments you need, emulate Silver with Bracers or silversheen, and carry a mundane Adamantine weapon as backup?

Advise please. =)

[Waker]

Sense Weakness from Draconomicon allows you to ignore 5 points of DR or Hardness when using a weapon you have Weapon Focus in.

[Psyren]

Power Attack

[jguy]

Get a weapon made of force. +2 enchantment on a bow makes it shoots bolts of force that ignore all DR. There are the Bracers of Endless Javelins that make +1 javelin made of force as a swift action. Probably could use that as a melee weapon.

[JeminiZero]

The Transmuting Weapon property [MiC] automatically adapts to overcome the DR of the last creature it struck in the previous round, if it can be overcome (i.e. everything except DR/-).

And there's also the Mountain Hammer series from ToB.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Transmuting propierty from the MiC a +2 bonus, if you strike an enemy who has DR/something, on the next attack you will automatically override the DR and it will last 10 turns after the last contact with the enemy.

Shadow Striking: +3 bonus from Tome of Magic (Shadow Magic section) , will overcome any DR when it makes contact with the enemy, it specifically mentions substances and alignment. the effects fades 1d4 minutes after the last contact with the enemy.

[Dimers]

Aligned Attack (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Aligned_Attack) psi feat, for the law/chaos ... if you design an item that lets you act as if you have the feat, it would certainly also qualify for the "must have skill X" price reduction.

[Zanatos777]

Power Attack

This. Also Transmuting (MIC) which has already been noted. Otherwise just do lots of damage. DR is not overwhelming. I saw a level 18 lich taken down by one full attack made by a 14th level fighter/barbarian (pounce/shock trooper) and he had to deal with all the DR.

[Bobikus]

for Demons you often need Cold Iron

Off topic I guess, but the idea of "cold iron" being a special material always felt really dumb to me, at least that it's called 'cold iron'.

[NichG]

Mountain Hammer and several other maneuvers from Tome of Battle flat out ignore all DR. One of the Embody Paragon abilities from Mythic Exemplar lets you ignore 15 points of DR.

[dark.sun.druid]

For a melee weapon, you have two options. You can get a Shadow Striking weapon (+3, ToM page 155). This means that your weapon automatically overcomes any DR/Some sort of material or alignment. Also, because you need to have your weapon enchanted to at least +1 before you can put an enchantment on it you overcome DR/Magic too. The only ones you don't overcome (that I can think of) are DR/Epic any specific magic enchantment (like DR/+5) that you haven't paid for. Meaning a +5 Shadow Striking weapon should overcome any DR except DR/Epic and DR/-. This is usually what I go for.

Your other melee option for overcoming basically any DR is to get a Tansmuting weapon (+2, MiC page 45). This means that you can overcome any DR including specific magic enchantments such as DR/+5 which Shadow Striking doesn't cover, and including in theory DR/Epic (although your DM may houserule against this) except DR/-. The main drawback for this is that it takes a round to align itself to the creature's specific DR, so if you're fighting several enemies with different DRs at once this effectively forces you to attack only one of them (not to mention the fact that you loose a round of full damage). This is the cheaper alternative.

If you have a ranged weapon, get Force (+2, MiC page 35). This automatically overcomes any DR including in theory DR/-, although again your DM may houserule against this. You also get the added bonus of being able to hit incorporeal targets without suffering the standard 50% miss chance! The only drawback to this is that your range weapon will no longer harm anything that is immune to force.

Hope I helped!

[LeshLush]

In 3.0, all DR was overcome by how much +X you had on your weapon. I feel like the change made in the transition to 3.5 gave an unintended nerf to melee as result, because now you need a new weapon for everything. In the old days, as long as your weapon was as plussed as it could be, the fighter was going to overcome DR.

[JaronK]

Shadow Striking (+3) weapons automatically adapt to DR. But really, just hitting them harder (as someone else said, Power Attack) is the normal solution.

JaronK

[SurlySeraph]

ToB + Mountain Hammer and/or Shards of Granite. Or just hit him harder.

[Flickerdart]

All elemental damage ignored DR, so just find a way to set your sword on fire or something and you're golden. A bard cohort with Draconic Heritage (Emerald) and Dragonfire Inspiration is the easiest way to do this.

[Ravens_cry]

Be a Pathfinder Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) and Smite the Bastard.

[Firechanter]

Some thoughts:
- yes, I also find it cheesy that "Cold Iron" is a special material. But I guess it would have been too cheap if any steel weapon could kill demons just like that.
- the Stone Dragon maneuvers turn from decent into epic fail as soon as the battles become airborne.
- right, I forgot to mention Transmuting, but there is this one attack delay with the resultung drawbacks. I'd say 90% of the time, Metalline does the same for the same price, but faster.
- Shadow Striking is awesome, but also awesomely expensive.
- afaik there is no DR X/+5 in 3.5 anymore.
- As I understand, they went away from the +X DRs because it resulted in a "You Must Be This Tall To Fight This Monster" effect. And they replaced it with a golfbag feel, duh. "I'd say it's a Bodak, sir" - "Well, hand me the 9 Cold Iron." When they realized that having to carry a golfbag of weapons is not very cool, they invented weapon augment crystals and other thingamabobs that could fake it.

[NichG]

There are a number of cheesy ways to get Stone Dragon maneuvers while airborne. Pack one's boots with dirt, that sort of thing.

In the campaign I'm in, at one point we needed to cut open a huge nigh-impenetrable metal orb that was in space. I had Mountain Hammer, so we ended up Gating in a couple hundred pounds of dirt for me to stand on so I could cut through the thing. Not too long after that I invested in abilities that simply let me summon dirt, for obvious reason.

[Jacque]

Does force effects bypass all damage reduction because it's considered to be elemental damage just like sonic?

[FelixG]

you could dip into warblade to get Mountain Hammer which lets you bypass all DR and Hardness.

[Firechanter]

I guess Force is just Force.
But there is no Force melee weapon property. Closest thing is the Force Javelin that's been mentioned, but using a Javelin in melee would count as improvised weapon, thus incurring a -4 penalty.
Of course, a Force Longsword would effectively be a Lightsabre. ^^

[Bobikus]

Some thoughts:
- yes, I also find it cheesy that "Cold Iron" is a special material. But I guess it would have been too cheap if any steel weapon could kill demons just like that.

Yeah, if they wanted something specific for DR purposes though, they could have made up more words/materials though instead of using an actual word that referred to regular iron for something that isn't regular iron imo.

[DeltaEmil]

Keep in mind that cold iron isn't just simple iron, it's a special iron from deep down the earth, that needs to be forged in low temperatures, making it that expensive because you can't simply use normal smithing techniques.

[Thurbane]

If you have a Cold Iron weapon, and wear Gauntlets of Weapon Arcane and Ring of Adamantine Touch, your weapon counts as Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine & magic. Combine with the Executioner's Mace (a martial 2-handed weapon that does either B&P or B&S damage).

An oil chamber with oil of Bless weapon will cover DR/Good...

...still leaves a few DR types, but you have the most common bases covered.

[Psyren]

In 3.0, all DR was overcome by how much +X you had on your weapon. I feel like the change made in the transition to 3.5 gave an unintended nerf to melee as result, because now you need a new weapon for everything.

You don't, actually. What's the highest DR you'll run into, 15? Oh no, you subtracted 15 from my triple-digit charge, now I have to wiggle my wrist a little to one-shot you.

[Firechanter]

Ah see here, I missed the Ring of Adamantine Touch. That's 6000, or 9000 as secondary property, just like the Gauntlet stuff. Of course, enchanting Cold Iron is more expensive -- as I see another +2000 for each +1 bonus.

So, first off you need a +1, and then maybe other properties benefitting your build worth another +2, for instance for a Martial Adept "Aptitude" and "Discipline":

A) +1 Metalline Discipline Aptitude = +5 bonus -> 50.000 GP
B) +1 Cold Iron Discipline Aptitude = +3 bonus -> (3^2*2000)+(3*2000)+9000+9000 (worst case) -> 42.000 GP

You save 8K, _but_ your weapon only has hardness 15 rather than 20.
Though I suppose you could spruce it up with an extra crystal of adamantine weaponry for 1400.

What about other fixed-price enhancements, such as Everbright to make it immune to rust and acid? That only costs 2000; would it be 4000 on a Cold Iron weapon?

The price advantage gets more beneficial on higher enchantment levels, for instance when a Metalline weapon arrives at +8 (128K), the Cold Iron one only costs 102K (including side gear).

Thanks for the hint! I'll keep that in mind.

[BlackSheep]

Just to add to the side conversation about cold iron, the notion is not one that was invented in role-playing games. As with most of the early content, it was borrowed from folk lore and mythology.

The more you know! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore)

[CigarPete]

Hmm, so to apply this to a current situation, say I just made myself a +1 Adamantine Rapier, and since my gish is a finesse fighter, power attack is out of the question. Metalline or Transmuting would be the best ways to make that adamantine weapon more effective? The campaign seems to be heading for some demons/devils soonish, so I am debating what else to put on this, CL9th, so only to +3 possible without going to outside sources, which will take substantially longer in-game. Cleric in the party routinely aligns everyone's weapons to good where it would be helpful, so that would be a wasted enhancement.

[Xiander]

Just to add to the side conversation about cold iron, the notion is not one that was invented in role-playing games. As with most of the early content, it was borrowed from folk lore and mythology.

The more you know! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore)

Thank you for sparring me the minute it would have taken me to dig up that link.

Curse you for making me use them to write this comment :smallwink:

[Glimbur]

I guess Force is just Force.
But there is no Force melee weapon property. Closest thing is the Force Javelin that's been mentioned, but using a Javelin in melee would count as improvised weapon, thus incurring a -4 penalty.
Of course, a Force Longsword would effectively be a Lightsabre. ^^

You could take Shape Soulmeld: Crystal Helm and Open Least Chakra (Crown) so you can "...melee attacks the force descriptor..." The listed effect is that you are effective against incorporeal foes, so you might need a ruling from your DM. Also it's a moderately obscure book (Magic of Incarnum) so...

[Psyren]

You can also be a Shadowsmith (ToM pg. 133) - full BAB and a handful of mysteries, but their main thing is that they can create magic weapons out of thin air that automatically gain shadow-striking at the capstone.

However, the adaptation (ToM pg. 135) cranks them up to 11 - you can form every weapon and even armor you create out of pure force, and they are still enhanced. Go on a ghost hunt! :smallsmile:

Interesting fact 1: You don't actually need levels in a casting class to PrC into this; just Craft, two knowledge skills, and an extremely easy fluff requirement.
Interesting fact 2: They get 6+Int skills! I wonder why?

[Keld Denar]

Hmm, so to apply this to a current situation, say I just made myself a +1 Adamantine Rapier, and since my gish is a finesse fighter, power attack is out of the question. Metalline or Transmuting would be the best ways to make that adamantine weapon more effective? The campaign seems to be heading for some demons/devils soonish, so I am debating what else to put on this, CL9th, so only to +3 possible without going to outside sources, which will take substantially longer in-game. Cleric in the party routinely aligns everyone's weapons to good where it would be helpful, so that would be a wasted enhancement.

Well, all but the highest tier of demons and devils (Marilith + Balor and Cornugun + Pit Fiend) require both material AND alignment. You can pick up the alignment component cheaply with the Sacred weapon enhancement in Libris Mortis: The Book of Bad Latin. Its a +1 equiv that makes the weapon be treated as [Good] for overcoming DR, and gives +1d6 vs undead and +2d6 vs evil outsiders. When you're primarily smacking around demons/devils, you'll notice absolutely no mechanical difference between Sacred and Holy, even though Sacred costs WAY less than Holy. Totally awesome if you feel like the campaign is heading in that direction.

[DeltaEmil]

The second level ability of the Eternal Blade prestige class in Tome of Battle allows you to ignore any kind of DR for the rest of your turn as a swift action.

[Firechanter]

You can pick up the alignment component cheaply with the Sacred weapon enhancement in Libris Mortis: The Book of Bad Latin. Its a +1 equiv that makes the weapon be treated as [Good] for overcoming DR, and gives +1d6 vs undead and +2d6 vs evil outsiders.

*lol* at Book of Bad Latin ^^ but you can get pretty much the same effect from the much cheaper "Lesser Fiendslayer" Crystal in MIC. Costs 3000GP flat, makes your weapon count as good-aligned for purposes of overcoming DR, and also adds +1d6 vs Evil Outsiders. Granted, you're missing out on 1d6 vs those and Undead, but looking at the price it's just more attractive, seeing how those +1 bonuses add up.

When it comes to fighting Incorporeal creatures, swap out your crystal with a Lesser Truedeath, costs 5000 and grants the Ghost Touch effect, in addition to +1d6 vs. Undead.

The angle not covered here is fighting incorporeal Undead with DR/Good, honestly I don't even know if there are any, but if so you can still fall back to using a Bless Weapon oil for the occasion.

[LeshLush]

Just to add to the side conversation about cold iron, the notion is not one that was invented in role-playing games. As with most of the early content, it was borrowed from folk lore and mythology.

The more you know! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore)
It's not the notion that iron has power over fey that's dumb, it's the notion that "cold iron" is somehow distinct from regular iron. Cold iron is just a poetic phrase, and would have had a similar meaning to the modern expression "cold steel." No one would say that there is steel, and then there's cold steel, and one is greater than the other. DnD invented the fake idea that cold iron was some form of unsmelted iron, instead of just regular iron.

[Firechanter]

Exactly. You rolled well on your Bardic Knowledge check.

[Keld Denar]

"Lesser Fiendslayer" Crystal in MIC.

Unless you KNOW that you'll be fighting primarily demons/devils. Then its useful to spend the jink to get Sacred and use a different crystal, like say...a Lesser Revelation Crystal. The number of times my bacon has been saved by a Lesser Revelation Crystal can't be counted on the fingers on one hand alone (unless you are the 6 figured man, in which case, you killed my father, prepare to die!).

[Firechanter]

Haha ^^

Okay, I'll make a note of that. Generally I'd say there are many ways to reveal invisible opponents, such as: See Invis spell, Glitterdust spell, Hearing the Air stance, or this Spot skilltrick (this one only once per encounter, though). Of course, the latter would go very well with this crystal: spot your invisible enemy once with the skilltrick, then hit him every round and make him shine like a christmas tree until you've literally beaten the living daylight out of him.

[Ravens_cry]

It's not the notion that iron has power over fey that's dumb, it's the notion that "cold iron" is somehow distinct from regular iron. Cold iron is just a poetic phrase, and would have had a similar meaning to the modern expression "cold steel." No one would say that there is steel, and then there's cold steel, and one is greater than the other. DnD invented the fake idea that cold iron was some form of unsmelted iron, instead of just regular iron.
Eh, as, it's all mythological so it probably isn't the first time it has changed. RHJuniors Tales of the Questor, good webcomic by the way most of the time, presents it as Magnetic iron. Other stories present it as meteorite iron. Mercedes Lackeys SERRAted edge universe presents as pure iron, steel doesn't work, or not as well.
The idea is all "fake", all fiction, unless the universe works vastly different then I ever imagined, so changing it isn't a reason to dig out the torches and pitchforks, of cold iron or not.

[Keld Denar]

See, Firechanter, that would involve relying on my fellow players to actually think. Most of the time they don't plan for such issues. Thus, when I plan mid-high level characters, I generally try to get some form of See Invis or True Sight to go with my Revelation Crystal. That way I can hit them to light them up, and the rest of my party can then target it as appropriate.

[Triaxx]

Magic totally ignores DR.

Just had to say it. On the other hand, along with Cold Iron, we also have Silver, and Alchemical Silver.

[Firechanter]

@Keld Denar: haha I know what you mean. ^^
Only person in my previous group(s) who was interested in proper tactics was my then-gf. Sometimes we'd discuss between sessions how to tackle the next boss, and stuff like that. That alone gave us a huge edge over the other players.

In the game I'm now in, I couldn't decide between two character concepts so now I am playing both. A Magician and her bodyguard. That also means I am emancipated from what the other dorks(*) might or might not do. ^^

*) They are not really dorks, so far all nice persons, but not all so terribly D&D-savvy if you know what I mean.

[randomhero00]

whats with all the cold iron hate? It is the original DR/metal that would cut through magic in old myths. The faeries couldn't stand it. And back then faeries were very very scary. Cold iron is the original idea for having any kind of DR bypassing material.

[LeshLush]

whats with all the cold iron hate? It is the original DR/metal that would cut through magic in old myths. The faeries couldn't stand it. And back then faeries were very very scary. Cold iron is the original idea for having any kind of DR bypassing material.
I know that. I'm fine with the idea of cold iron bypassing DR. It's just that in the old myths you refer to, the phrase "cold iron" refers to 100% regular iron, not special crazy iron. "Cold iron" was just an expression. Having DR/cold iron is like having DR/liquid hot magma, where magma is ineffectual, but DR is overcome by magma summoned from the Plane of Liquid Hot.

[Thurbane]

In game terms, Cold Iron as a DR type needs to be defined as a special material, else almost all weapons would overcome it, which would render it pretty much redundant as a DR type.

[NichG]

Well, it would be an interesting thing if certain enemies were particularly vulnerable to wood vs iron, or iron vs wood, but since very very few characters actually use wooden weapons, it'd be a bit moot (although, the Brambles spell is an interesting way to get significant damage boosts that shouldn't be ignored...).

Alternatively, steel doesn't count but wrought iron does. The result would be a weapon that has -1 to damage, is more expensive to make masterwork (or something like that), and cuts through iron-based DR where steel would not.

Generally I'm a fan of just busting through with either 'negate all DR' or 'lots of damage per hit' as opposed to the golfbag. Purely psychologically, I'd probably be more into the golfbag if creatures like Fey and so on had +5 damage per hit done to them by a cold iron weapon, as opposed to -15 damage per hit done to them by anything that is not a cold iron weapon. Even better would be something like 'Regeneration 1, negated by [cold] iron' or even 'Wounds dealt by [cold] iron weapons to this creature are treated like Vile damage/Frostburn damage/etc - one of the hard-to-heal types'

[MeeposFire]

Well, it would be an interesting thing if certain enemies were particularly vulnerable to wood vs iron, or iron vs wood, but since very very few characters actually use wooden weapons, it'd be a bit moot (although, the Brambles spell is an interesting way to get significant damage boosts that shouldn't be ignored...).

Alternatively, steel doesn't count but wrought iron does. The result would be a weapon that has -1 to damage, is more expensive to make masterwork (or something like that), and cuts through iron-based DR where steel would not.

Generally I'm a fan of just busting through with either 'negate all DR' or 'lots of damage per hit' as opposed to the golfbag. Purely psychologically, I'd probably be more into the golfbag if creatures like Fey and so on had +5 damage per hit done to them by a cold iron weapon, as opposed to -15 damage per hit done to them by anything that is not a cold iron weapon. Even better would be something like 'Regeneration 1, negated by [cold] iron' or even 'Wounds dealt by [cold] iron weapons to this creature are treated like Vile damage/Frostburn damage/etc - one of the hard-to-heal types'

Well that is the way they went for the most part in 4e. Probably for that very reason.