Feats and Abilities for a Flying Character

[Elric VIII]

Simple question: Can anyone recommend some good feats and classes for a character that will have the winged template?

Other than having bat wings, the request was open-ended. I will include in the build Flyby Attack and Air Heritage, but I would like to have some suggestions on ways to focus on the ability to fly as a primary combat mode.

[Volos]

Great Flyby Attack from Savage Species. Being able to strike a foe per point of Dex modifer and no AoOs from said foes while flying up to your fly speed? All sorts of yes. Not to mention you make only one attack roll, which means any effect that modifies a single attack roll benifits you for every attack along this path of destruction. Rolling within your crit range also just got better, since you have a chance to crit against every single foe that you are striking at. It says all foes must be within reach, which is only more reason to wield a reach weapon. A nat 20 earns you auto hits against all foes that you planned to strike with. Combinde with the ability to make re-rolls from luck feats or the ability to treat a nat 1 as a nat 20 once per day on attack rolls (also from a luck feat) and you're in business. What business you ask? The business of killing things fast and effectively.

[Saintheart]

Don't forget maneuverability. To maintain effective airspeed velocity an unladen swallow has to beat its wings several thousand times you have to hold half your movement in reserve, and your usual starting maneuverability will be classed as "Clunker". Er, Poor.

Improved Flight and Hover help with some of these issues. Hover gives you more options per round, and Improved Flight, well, improves your flight by one step. This is particularly handy when facing dragons, since for the most part their maneuverability is rated as poor or average at best until you get to the real bad ones.

[panaikhan]

Races of the Wild (I think) have some flying feats etc. included for their Raptoran race

[Elric VIII]

Great Flyby Attack from Savage Species.
Wow, that's good. This with a Whip Dagger... I love it.


Don't forget maneuverability. To maintain effective airspeed velocity an unladen swallow has to beat its wings several thousand times you have to hold half your movement in reserve, and your usual starting maneuverability will be classed as "Clunker". Er, Poor.

Improved Flight and Hover help with some of these issues. Hover gives you more options per round, and Improved Flight, well, improves your flight by one step. This is particularly handy when facing dragons, since for the most part their maneuverability is rated as poor or average at best until you get to the real bad ones.

According to the Winged Creature Template I need 17 Dex to have perfect flight. Unless that 17 is supposed to be Dex modifier, in which case I need 44 Dex, which may be a bit of a challenge.


Races of the Wild (I think) have some flying feats etc. included for their Raptoran race

I looked at those, none of them seemed incredibly useful, but thank you.

[Doc Roc]

As always, I must recommend fiendish wing grafts over the winged template. They're all kinds of superior. Archers and casters tend to be my preference, but I would suspect that you could do something truly hilarious with great flyby and warshaper.

[Dalek-K]

I put my vote in for Dungeon Crasher :D

You always have something to ram your enemy into since 99% of the time there is a ground XD

[Elric VIII]

As always, I must recommend fiendish wing grafts over the winged template. They're all kinds of superior. Archers and casters tend to be my preference, but I would suspect that you could do something truly hilarious with great flyby and warshaper.

The DM has disallowed Evil things. The player wants to play a man-bat.


I put my vote in for Dungeon Crasher :D

You always have something to ram your enemy into since 99% of the time there is a ground XD

How does bullrushing work with great flyby attack?

[gbprime]

I looked at those, none of them seemed incredibly useful, but thank you.

Look again. Diving Charge.

And if you're doing flyby attacks, you need Scout and Improved Skirmish. Period.

[Elric VIII]

Look again. Diving Charge.

And if you're doing flyby attacks, you need Scout and Improved Skirmish. Period.

I must have missed that. Does this work when bull rushing them into the ground?

What are the interactions between Pounce, Dungeon Crasher, and Diving Charge?

[gbprime]

I must have missed that. Does this work when bull rushing them into the ground?

What are the interactions between Pounce, Dungeon Crasher, and Diving Charge?

Well Diving charge adds damage to a charge, pounce lets you attack more than once when you charge, so you get the Diving Charge bonus on each attack.

If you Bull Rush as part of a charge, you get the bonus damage from Diving Charge plus the bonus damage if you knock them back into a wall.

I don't think Pounce allows you to make multiple Bull Rushes on a charge. So I'd recommend EITHER Dungeon Crasher OR Pounce. And since Dungeon Crasher requires vertical surfaces to slam into and since you're flying at a high rate of speed... I'd go with Pounce. Sounds safer.:smallconfused:

[sreservoir]

can't you just play an anthropomorphic bat instead of using the winged template?

that said, I'm fond of getting a something of fly like an arrow, from Dragon 308. It has a feat requirement to cast, though, which is a bit unfortunate.

[avr]

It won't matter in a dungeon, but when you can set it up, the ability to attack from extreme range while flying can be great. Far shot and a bow works best, but enlarge spell can do the job.

[Elric VIII]

I don't think Pounce allows you to make multiple Bull Rushes on a charge. So I'd recommend EITHER Dungeon Crasher OR Pounce. And since Dungeon Crasher requires vertical surfaces to slam into and since you're flying at a high rate of speed... I'd go with Pounce. Sounds safer.:smallconfused:

Sound advice.


can't you just play an anthropomorphic bat instead of using the winged template?

that said, I'm fond of getting a something of fly like an arrow, from Dragon 308. It has a feat requirement to cast, though, which is a bit unfortunate.

I've already considered the bat, with a 20ft fly speed and a 5 foot land speed, it can hardly be qualified as fast. The winged template bases its speed off of your land speed, so Fast Movement, etc affect it as well. Also, I won't be able to take advantage of the Wis bonus, but +Dex is always useful.


It won't matter in a dungeon, but when you can set it up, the ability to attack from extreme range while flying can be great. Far shot and a bow works best, but enlarge spell can do the job.

I was thinking something along the lines of Scout 5/Barbarian 1/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Highland Stalker 10. I remember seeing somewhere that you could charge with thrown weapons using the Martial Throw ability. I was thinking it would be awesome to fly around with javelins, using Diving Charge to increase their damage by flying toward the enemy.

Does Martial Throw allow you to charge with ranged weapons?

[sreservoir]

also, 51-60 on the wings table gets functional bat wings at 2x base land (average) for unseelie fey. kind of cheesy and crap ability adjustments, though.

[Cieyrin]

Does Martial Throw allow you to charge with ranged weapons?

That came up in one of the Iron Chef comps for Assassin and, at least as a judge for that comp, I don't think Martial Throw works like that. What you want is Hurling Charge (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Hurling_Charge).

[AtomicKitKat]

Pretty sure Draconomicon has some Diving-type moves. Also, if you can find a way to get and maintain a decent size, you can take Wingstorm(or was it Hover)? Savage Species. Either way, you can create dust clouds for concealment/holding opponents in position.

[gbprime]

These are the most useful feats I put together for my last "flying charger" build...

Flyby Attack, Hover, Wingover (Monster Manual)
Diving Charge, Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild)
Greater Flyby Attack (Savage Species)
Adroit Flyby Attack, Power Climb (Draconomicon)

And if you're building it with scout levels, you'll also need to look at...

Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel)
Quick Reconnoiter (Complete Adventurer)

[Zaq]

Races of the Dragon offers the Wing Expert tactical feat. It lets you get a bonus on attacks if you attack the same person you fly-charged last round, gain concealment on the round after you take total defense, and kick up a Gust of Wind (as the spell) as a full-round action (rendering yourself fatigued in the process).

Yeah, I won't lie, it's a pretty crappy feat. I'm just throwing it out there for your consideration. Maybe you see something with it that I don't. If you can find a way to get around fatigue, having a nearly at-will Gust of Wind could theoretically be interesting, but you can probably find something better to do with your feats.

[Elric VIII]

Those are all good suggestions. I think I have all that I will need now. Thank you for the help.

[AtomicKitKat]

Races of the Dragon offers the Wing Expert tactical feat. It lets you get a bonus on attacks if you attack the same person you fly-charged last round, gain concealment on the round after you take total defense, and kick up a Gust of Wind (as the spell) as a full-round action (rendering yourself fatigued in the process).

Yeah, I won't lie, it's a pretty crappy feat. I'm just throwing it out there for your consideration. Maybe you see something with it that I don't. If you can find a way to get around fatigue, having a nearly at-will Gust of Wind could theoretically be interesting, but you can probably find something better to do with your feats.

Wingstorm will get you the Gust(size dependent though).

[Prime32]

White dragonspawn is the superior template for flight (= 2x your land speed), though it grants so many abilities for +1 LA that your DM is unlikely to allow it.

A pectoral of maneuverability (Draconomicon I think) improves your maneuverability by one step.

[CubeB]

White dragonspawn is the superior template for flight (= 2x your land speed), though it grants so many abilities for +1 LA that your DM is unlikely to allow it.

A pectoral of maneuverability (Draconomicon I think) improves your maneuverability by one step.

Ah, yes.

A breath weapon, bite and claw attacks, spells as a first level sorcerer, +7 Natural Armor, bonuses to Dex and Con, and they explode when they die.

It's craaaazy.

[nedz]

Ah, yes.

A breath weapon, bite and claw attacks, spells as a first level sorcerer, +7 Natural Armor, bonuses to Dex and Con, and they explode when they die.

It's craaaazy.

That looks like it should LA +4 or +5 ?

[Prime32]

That looks like it should LA +4 or +5 ?I wouldn't go that far. It's only +2 Dex/Con, and the breath weapon is very weak. But still, it's way too much for LA +1, especially if you have LA buyoff and can cast as a sorcerer of a higher level than your character level.

[nedz]

I wouldn't go that far. It's only +2 Dex/Con, and the breath weapon is very weak. But still, it's way too much for LA +1, especially if you have LA buyoff and can cast as a sorcerer of a higher level than your character level.

+7 NA and Sorc 1 as well ?
Does this Sorc level stack with other Sorc Casting ?
Actually the Sorc stuff sounds like 1 RHD rather than +1 LA.

Exploding on death is probably a -1 though.

[CubeB]

+7 NA and Sorc 1 as well ?
Does this Sorc level stack with other Sorc Casting ?
Actually the Sorc stuff sounds like 1 RHD rather than +1 LA.

Exploding on death is probably a -1 though.

Why yes, it does stack. :D

[nedz]

OK +4 LA does seem high, but +1 LA is definately too low.
And it really ought to have +1 RHD for the level of sorceror, which is better than most RHD to be honest.

[Elric VIII]

White Dragonspawn is roommates with Feral and Minieral Warrior, and it'ss dating Unseelie Fae.

I wanted to stay away from dragons (such as Dragonborn) because it feels kind of dumb reflavoring a dragon as a bat.

Although, the template is a nice, powerful suggestion.