A&A: Algebra and *** Kicking 101. Desiring to study.

[AnonymousD&Der]

Welp, this is going to be the first of a few flavor threads while I wait for the final few responces to hopefully my last Warblade thread (I just got the Green Light for a Partner Cleric to be able to recharge my Travel Devotion Feat with Her Turn Undead. Freaking Awesome!). While I wait for it to get bumped so I can have my final questions answered

It's totally right here, hint hint! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10454639)

, I'd like to have someone sit down with me and work on a bit of Cutting Calculus. People have all of their uber builds and stuff. How exactly does all of that damage get calculated? I'd enjoy it if people could sit down and work out the statistics involved in the incredibly high amounts of pain they inflict. Make the numbers actually known instead of being just stated as
http://attachments.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=732644&stc=1&d=1248502697
Although you can go ahead and assume maximum damage on dice during your calculations. Provide them, and any amount on the rolls can be calculated.

Show how your build kicks butt, but please provide your process. And it doesn't have to be just melee, so long as you're showing each piece of your allmighty damage. Although I don't even see how someone would level a Barbarian 1 / Warblade 2 / Fighter 2 / Half Celestial / Dragon Slayer 2 / Godzilla 1 / Fruit Pie 5 / Pikmin 3. Multiclassing a bit is okay, but let's try not to get -too- ridiculous unless you can explain it in detail how the heck you do that.

Here is an awesome formula provided by ShneekeytheLost, which was a modified form of Mint's posting. I'ma add this to my character cheet sheet for quick reference.


This looks pretty good, actually. However, to clean it up a bit...

D(x) = (d + a)m * n

where:

d = the result from the die roll
a = all of the additive modifiers (power attack, attribute modifier bonus, etc...)
m = the multiplicative modifiers involved. For example: valorous
n = number of attacks made

Now, (a) may be broken down further into (xX +yY + zZ + ...) wherin x, y, z,... are static bonuses and X, Y, Z,... are the multiplicative modifiers to those static bonuses. For example, when power attacking with a 2h weapon for 20 points of BAB, x would be 20 (the static bonus) and X would be 2 (since the power attack bonus is doubled for a two-handed weapon). But since this multiplier only affects x (the power attack bonus) it is distinctly different from (m) in the previous equation.

Therefore, the final equation would look something like this:

D(x) = ((d + (xX +yY + zZ +...))m+a) * n

wherin

d = the die roll, regardless of number or type of die being rolled in the process
x, y, z,... = various stat bonuses
X, Y, Z,... = the multiplicative modifiers to aforementioned specific static bonuses
m = the multiplicative modifier to the entire attack (for example, crits)
a = static bonuses which are not multiplied, for example Sneak Attack
n = the number of non-volley attacks made. For this purpose, volley attacks are taken into consideration when calculating (d).

[Saint GoH]

I had to do this with my shock trooper last night. Lvl 6 btw.

Whirling Frenzy Pounce Charge wielding a +1 valorous guisarme. Had a strength of 22, 2handed weapon, +2 from inspire courage, +18 from -6 PA leap attack. Initial damage roll = d10+30*2 because of valorous weapon. 3 attacks.

Final damage roll? 7+30*2 + 4+30*2 + 8+30*2 = 218. If we had assumed full damage it would have been 240.

[mint]

English is not my first math language so this may be imprecise (dun dun DUUUN!).

There is always a formula for damage so that's our function.
We have our stat mod, S,
We have various additions such as magic weapon and power attack, A, B, ... F
We have a, b, c, ... rational non-negative scalars to account for, power attacking, empower. Critical strike as a percentile modifier is not so interesting so we won't do that.
Though we roll multiple dice we do not need multiple variables. X is the sum we get from our roll. So the function is defined on the set of integers 1 to [maximum possible sum of the dice].

A damage function would then look something like this

D(x) = p( mS + k( x ) + aA + bB + cC )

[Angry Bob]

The Grasshopper of Doom build had a lot of attacks, but I never got to actually use it. Here's a start:

Race/Classes: Thri-Keen, Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Warblade 6/Fighter 2. To be expanded on later.

Relevant Feats:
Battle Jump, Evil Brand -> Abyss-Bound Soul of Baphomet, Multiweapon Fighting -> Imp. Multiweapon Fighting -> Greater Multiweapon Fighting(Not included in the build yet, check back later), Oversize Multiweapon Fighting, Leap of the Heavens, Power Attack+Imp. Bullrush -> Shock Trooper.

Relevant maneuvers: Leaping Dragon Stance, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades

Relevant Items: Valorous Longswords(x4)

Attack routine on a charge: Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Bite/Sword, +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+13/+13
Sword Damage(Full Shock Trooper): 1d8 + 21 x3(Valorous + Abyss-Bound Soul to Baphomet), x4 on Battle Jump. Bite: 1d4 + 15 x2, x3 on Battle Jump.

Which is pretty impressive on its own. Then you get the jump on an enemy(Battle Jump), and then exploit battle jump by taking a sudden leap after landing, and Battle Jumping them again, and then using two move actions to jump straight up and do it again. So you should be able to connect with that attack routine 3 times even if you're not starting the fight above them.

If you only connect half the time, you're still doing around 375 per charge on average, 500 on a battle jump. So around 1125 damage on an average turn, and 1625 on a turn where you start by taking a free action to fall 5 feet or more down on them.

And this is all at ECL 11, so I'll be back with an updated version sometime.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

English is not my first math language so this may be imprecise (dun dun DUUUN!).

There is always a formula for damage so that's our function.
We have our stat mod, S,
We have various additions such as magic weapon and power attack, A, B, ... F
We have a, b, c, ... rational non-negative scalars to account for, power attacking, empower. Critical strike as a percentile modifier is not so interesting so we won't do that.
Though we roll multiple dice we do not need multiple variables. X is the sum we get from our roll. So the function is defined on the set of integers 1 to [maximum possible sum of the dice].

A damage function would then look something like this

D(x) = p( mS + k( x ) + aA + bB + cC )

This looks pretty good, actually. However, to clean it up a bit...

D(x) = (d + a)m * n

where:

d = the result from the die roll
a = all of the additive modifiers (power attack, attribute modifier bonus, etc...)
m = the multiplicative modifiers involved. For example: valorous
n = number of attacks made

Now, (a) may be broken down further into (xX +yY + zZ + ...) wherin x, y, z,... are static bonuses and X, Y, Z,... are the multiplicative modifiers to those static bonuses. For example, when power attacking with a 2h weapon for 20 points of BAB, x would be 20 (the static bonus) and X would be 2 (since the power attack bonus is doubled for a two-handed weapon). But since this multiplier only affects x (the power attack bonus) it is distinctly different from (m) in the previous equation.

Therefore, the final equation would look something like this:

D(x) = ((d + (xX +yY + zZ +...))m+a) * n

wherin

d = the die roll, regardless of number or type of die being rolled in the process
x, y, z,... = various stat bonuses
X, Y, Z,... = the multiplicative modifiers to aforementioned specific static bonuses
m = the multiplicative modifier to the entire attack (for example, crits)
a = static bonuses which are not multiplied, for example Sneak Attack
n = the number of non-volley attacks made. For this purpose, volley attacks are taken into consideration when calculating (d).

[AnonymousD&Der]

This looks pretty good, actually. However, to clean it up a bit...

D(x) = (d + a)m * n

where:

d = the result from the die roll
a = all of the additive modifiers (power attack, attribute modifier bonus, etc...)
m = the multiplicative modifiers involved. For example: valorous
n = number of attacks made

Now, (a) may be broken down further into (xX +yY + zZ + ...) wherin x, y, z,... are static bonuses and X, Y, Z,... are the multiplicative modifiers to those static bonuses. For example, when power attacking with a 2h weapon for 20 points of BAB, x would be 20 (the static bonus) and X would be 2 (since the power attack bonus is doubled for a two-handed weapon). But since this multiplier only affects x (the power attack bonus) it is distinctly different from (m) in the previous equation.

Therefore, the final equation would look something like this:

D(x) = ((d + (xX +yY + zZ +...))m+a) * n

wherin

d = the die roll, regardless of number or type of die being rolled in the process
x, y, z,... = various stat bonuses
X, Y, Z,... = the multiplicative modifiers to aforementioned specific static bonuses
m = the multiplicative modifier to the entire attack (for example, crits)
a = static bonuses which are not multiplied, for example Sneak Attack
n = the number of non-volley attacks made. For this purpose, volley attacks are taken into consideration when calculating (d).

I like this blanket equation. You seem to have a good head for math on your shoulders. I'ma put this in the first post.


The Grasshopper of Doom build had a lot of attacks, but I never got to actually use it. Here's a start:

Race/Classes: Thri-Keen, Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Warblade 6/Fighter 2. To be expanded on later.

Relevant Feats:
Battle Jump, Evil Brand -> Abyss-Bound Soul of Baphomet, Multiweapon Fighting -> Imp. Multiweapon Fighting -> Greater Multiweapon Fighting(Not included in the build yet, check back later), Oversize Multiweapon Fighting, Leap of the Heavens, Power Attack+Imp. Bullrush -> Shock Trooper.

Relevant maneuvers: Leaping Dragon Stance, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades

Relevant Items: Valorous Longswords(x4)

Attack routine on a charge: Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Sword/Bite/Sword, +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+13/+13
Sword Damage(Full Shock Trooper): 1d8 + 21 x3(Valorous + Abyss-Bound Soul to Baphomet), x4 on Battle Jump. Bite: 1d4 + 15 x2, x3 on Battle Jump.

Which is pretty impressive on its own. Then you get the jump on an enemy(Battle Jump), and then exploit battle jump by taking a sudden leap after landing, and Battle Jumping them again, and then using two move actions to jump straight up and do it again. So you should be able to connect with that attack routine 3 times even if you're not starting the fight above them.

If you only connect half the time, you're still doing around 375 per charge on average, 500 on a battle jump. So around 1125 damage on an average turn, and 1625 on a turn where you start by taking a free action to fall 5 feet or more down on them.

And this is all at ECL 11, so I'll be back with an updated version sometime.

Can anyone break this down for me a little bit? I'm trying to grasp how it works, but my mind defuses somewhere between trying to figure out the ECL and wondering if there's a creature with more than 1625 hp. Doesn't the Tarrasque only have 1000ish hp max?

I doubt there's too many combos -that- high, but I'll go ahead and jinx it and ask if anyone still feels like posting more combos.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, if you want to get into extreme cheese...

The d2 Crusader
Basically, uses the Aura of Chaos stance so that if he rolls the highest possible on the die roll, he gets to roll a new damage die and add it in. Then he gets a luck feat that lets him reroll natural 1's on damage. Thus the only possible result for the die roll is also the highest result, activating the stance, resulting in NI damage output, as this is repeated an arbitrary number of times until the opponent is a fine red mist.

Twin +1 Keen Kukri of Adaptation. For this combo to work, you want the stance Blood In The Water and the feat Lightning Mace. Adaptation lets the kukri count as any other weapon for purposes of qualifying for feats. Lightning Mace gives you a free attack every time you crit. Blood in the Water stance gives you a +1 to attack and damage, as an untyped bonus, every time you crit. Dice explode rapidly. Soon, it becomes nearly impossible to miss.

[Firechanter]

Adaptation lets the kukri count as any other weapon for purposes of qualifying for feats.

What book is that in?

Because the way you worded it, it wouldn't work: _qualifying_ for a feat is something different from _gaining the benefit_ from one.

[Angry Bob]

Race/Classes: Thri-Keen, Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Warblade 6/Fighter 2. To be expanded on later.

Relevant Feats:
Battle Jump, Evil Brand -> Abyss-Bound Soul of Baphomet, Multiweapon Fighting -> Imp. Multiweapon Fighting -> Greater Multiweapon Fighting(Not included in the build yet, check back later), Oversize Multiweapon Fighting, Leap of the Heavens, Power Attack+Imp. Bullrush -> Shock Trooper.

Relevant maneuvers: Leaping Dragon Stance, Sudden Leap, Wall of Blades

Relevant Items: Valorous Longswords

Race/Class:
Spirit Lion Totem: Pounce for fast movement.
Whirling Frenzy: Rage variant that essentially grants flurry with any weapon.
Thri-Keen: An insectoid race with four arms. This build uses the nonpsionic variant from Shining South for its +1 LA instead of +2. Incidentally, gets +30 to jump checks.

Feats:
Battle Jump: Lets you treat any fall of 5 feet or more down onto an enemy as a charge, lets you replace any of these attacks with a trip attempt. Also, does double damage.
Abyss-Bound Soul of Baphomet: Double damage on charges.
Multiweapon Fighting Chain: TWF for guys with four arms or more.
Oversized Multiweapon fighting: For one-handed weapons in each hand. This is to standardize the weapon damage rather than to cause any great increase in damage.
Leap of the Heavens: A tool to jump as high as possible. Not as good as Leaping Dragon stance, but helps.
Shock Trooper: It's a charging build. You figure it out.

Maneuvers:
Leaping Dragon Stance: Adds 10 feet to your jump distance. This almost guarantees that against medium creatures, I can trigger battle jump just by jumping straight up.
Sudden Leap: Lets you jump as a swift action.
Wall of Blades: Lets you replace your AC with an attack roll. Only works once per turn, unfortunately.

Items:
Valorous weapon: Doubles damage on a charge.

Also, I think I applied full strength for the off-hand attacks. I don't have the build in front of me, but it also looks like I miscalculated the to-hit. I'll be back later with better numbers.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What book is that in?

Because the way you worded it, it wouldn't work: _qualifying_ for a feat is something different from _gaining the benefit_ from one.

Qualifying means being able to be used with the feats, you don't need weapons to qualify for feats, you need proficiency in weapons.

[Gralamin]

This looks pretty good, actually. However, to clean it up a bit...

D(x) = (d + a)m * n

where:

d = the result from the die roll
a = all of the additive modifiers (power attack, attribute modifier bonus, etc...)
m = the multiplicative modifiers involved. For example: valorous
n = number of attacks made

Now, (a) may be broken down further into (xX +yY + zZ + ...) wherin x, y, z,... are static bonuses and X, Y, Z,... are the multiplicative modifiers to those static bonuses. For example, when power attacking with a 2h weapon for 20 points of BAB, x would be 20 (the static bonus) and X would be 2 (since the power attack bonus is doubled for a two-handed weapon). But since this multiplier only affects x (the power attack bonus) it is distinctly different from (m) in the previous equation.

Therefore, the final equation would look something like this:

D(x) = ((d + (xX +yY + zZ +...))m+a) * n

wherin

d = the die roll, regardless of number or type of die being rolled in the process
x, y, z,... = various stat bonuses
X, Y, Z,... = the multiplicative modifiers to aforementioned specific static bonuses
m = the multiplicative modifier to the entire attack (for example, crits)
a = static bonuses which are not multiplied, for example Sneak Attack
n = the number of non-volley attacks made. For this purpose, volley attacks are taken into consideration when calculating (d).

This actually misses some important points: It does not taking into account your chance to miss, or your chance to crit. Luckily, this isn't hard to fix!

Let DPR(attack) = Damage Per Round with a given attack. This means, on mathematical average, using a trick will deal so much damage in a single round.
We also should have a similar function:
Let DPR(save, DC) = Damage Per round with a saving throw against the given DC.

Okay, now, let's start off with DPR(attack). What we will need is:
1) Your attack modifier
2) The enemy's relevant AC
3) Your critical hit range

In most cases in 3.5, we can make the following assertion:
Your critical hit range will always be in your hit range.
This makes some math easier, without it you need to include various max and mins.

So we are going to need the chance you have to hit, in general. This is equal to:
P(hit) = (20-max(The enemies relevant AC-Your Attack modifier-1,1))/20
So if your enemy has an AC of 20, and you attack at +5, you need to roll 15 to 20 to hit (15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 -> 6 numbers = 30%). This gives us:
(20-max(20-5-1,1))/20 = (20-(max(14,1)) = 20-14 = 6.
The max (Value, 1) takes into account that a 1 is ALWAYS a miss in 3.5

Now that we have this value, we can generate DPR(attack) easily:
DPR(Attack) = P(miss) * D(miss) + (P(Hit) - P(Crit))*D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(miss) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(Hit) * D(Crit)

P(miss) = 1-P(hit).
P(Crit) = (20-lowerEndOfCritRange+1)/20.
So if you have a 30% hit chance, and crit on 19-20, then you have:
P(miss) = 70%
P(crit) = (20-19+1)/20 = 2/20 = 10%

Thus, we can have:
DPR(Attack) = (1 - P(hit)) * D(miss) + (P(Hit) - P(Crit)) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * (1 - P(hit)) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(Hit) * D(Crit)

D(miss) is the damage done on a miss. Usually this is 0.
D(Hit) is the damage done on a hit. Generally, you should assume average die rolls ((dieSize+1)/2).
D(Crit) is the damage done on a crit. Generally, you should assume average die rolls again.

So take an attack that does 20 damage on average, 40 on a crit, has a 30% chance to hit, 10% chance of critting, and deals no damage on a miss. Then:
DPR(Attack) = 0 + (30% - 10%) * 20 + 10% * (100%-30%) * 20 + 10% * 30% * 40
DPR(Attack) = 0 + 20% * 20 + 7% * 20 + 3% * 40 = 6.6

So, such an attack would only actually deal 6.6 damage per round on average!

DPR(Save, DC) is similar. What we will need is:
1) The save bonus for the creature for Save. (EG: DPR(Fort, 10) needs Fort bonus)
2) Damage on a failed save.
2) Damage on a successful save.

So we can calculate:
P(save) = (20-max(DC-SaveBonus-1,1))/20

Then we can use it to calculate:
DPR(Save, DC) = P(save) * D(succeed) + (1 - P(save)) * D(fail))

So if we had, say, CL 10 Fireball against a creature with +2 reflex, and a DC of 17, the DPR looks like:
P(save) = (20 - max(17-2-1,1))/20 = (20 - max(14,1))/20 = (20 - 14)/20 = 6/20 = 30%.
DPR(Reflex, 17) = 30% * 35 + (100% - 30%) * 17.5 = 22.75 damage.

Of course the problem with 3.5 and these is there can be such a large variance in save bonuses, DCs, Attacks, ACs, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This actually misses some important points: It does not taking into account your chance to miss, or your chance to crit. Luckily, this isn't hard to fix!

Let DPR(attack) = Damage Per Round with a given attack. This means, on mathematical average, using a trick will deal so much damage in a single round.
We also should have a similar function:
Let DPR(save, DC) = Damage Per round with a saving throw against the given DC.

Okay, now, let's start off with DPR(attack). What we will need is:
1) Your attack modifier
2) The enemy's relevant AC
3) Your critical hit range

In most cases in 3.5, we can make the following assertion:
Your critical hit range will always be in your hit range.
This makes some math easier, without it you need to include various max and mins.

So we are going to need the chance you have to hit, in general. This is equal to:
P(hit) = (20-max(The enemies relevant AC-Your Attack modifier-1,1))/20
So if your enemy has an AC of 20, and you attack at +5, you need to roll 15 to 20 to hit (15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 -> 6 numbers = 30%). This gives us:
(20-max(20-5-1,1))/20 = (20-(max(14,1)) = 20-14 = 6.
The max (Value, 1) takes into account that a 1 is ALWAYS a miss in 3.5

Now that we have this value, we can generate DPR(attack) easily:
DPR(Attack) = P(miss) * D(miss) + (P(Hit) - P(Crit))*D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(miss) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(Hit) * D(Crit)

P(miss) = 1-P(hit).
P(Crit) = (20-lowerEndOfCritRange+1)/20.
So if you have a 30% hit chance, and crit on 19-20, then you have:
P(miss) = 70%
P(crit) = (20-19+1)/20 = 2/20 = 10%

Thus, we can have:
DPR(Attack) = (1 - P(hit)) * D(miss) + (P(Hit) - P(Crit)) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * (1 - P(hit)) * D(Hit) + P(Crit) * P(Hit) * D(Crit)

D(miss) is the damage done on a miss. Usually this is 0.
D(Hit) is the damage done on a hit. Generally, you should assume average die rolls ((dieSize+1)/2).
D(Crit) is the damage done on a crit. Generally, you should assume average die rolls again.

So take an attack that does 20 damage on average, 40 on a crit, has a 30% chance to hit, 10% chance of critting, and deals no damage on a miss. Then:
DPR(Attack) = 0 + (30% - 10%) * 20 + 10% * (100%-30%) * 20 + 10% * 30% * 40
DPR(Attack) = 0 + 20% * 20 + 7% * 20 + 3% * 40 = 6.6

So, such an attack would only actually deal 6.6 damage per round on average!

DPR(Save, DC) is similar. What we will need is:
1) The save bonus for the creature for Save. (EG: DPR(Fort, 10) needs Fort bonus)
2) Damage on a failed save.
2) Damage on a successful save.

So we can calculate:
P(save) = (20-max(DC-SaveBonus-1,1))/20

Then we can use it to calculate:
DPR(Save, DC) = P(save) * D(succeed) + (1 - P(save)) * D(fail))

So if we had, say, CL 10 Fireball against a creature with +2 reflex, and a DC of 17, the DPR looks like:
P(save) = (20 - max(17-2-1,1))/20 = (20 - max(14,1))/20 = (20 - 14)/20 = 6/20 = 30%.
DPR(Reflex, 17) = 30% * 35 + (100% - 30%) * 17.5 = 22.75 damage.

Of course the problem with 3.5 and these is there can be such a large variance in save bonuses, DCs, Attacks, ACs, etc.

The problem with quantifying these things is that it's rather complex and convoluted. I simply roll this up into 'd' in my equation, because 'd' represents the damage showed by the dice. If the dice roll up a miss, then that's that.

[Ganurath]

What book is that in?

Because the way you worded it, it wouldn't work: _qualifying_ for a feat is something different from _gaining the benefit_ from one.p148 of Tome of Battle, although it may be hard to spot because he spelled Aptitude funny. The combo does work by the wording, though, since Lightning Mace only works for a specific weapon. You can do the same thing with Quick Staff or Spinning Halberd, but not Crescent Moon.

[Firechanter]

Ah, Aptitude, got it.

It's really awesome what kind of exploits I learn in this forum. XD

However, in the case of Lightning Mace, you still need Weapon Focus: Light Mace. Likewise for the other Weapon Style feats. Aptitude does not allow you to change the prereq. If you change the Weapon Focus with your Weapon Aptitude class feature, Lightning Mace will cease working because you no longer meet the requirements.

[Tytalus]

Twin +1 Keen Kukri of Adaptation. For this combo to work, you want the stance Blood In The Water and the feat Lightning Mace. Adaptation lets the kukri count as any other weapon for purposes of qualifying for feats. Lightning Mace gives you a free attack every time you crit.

The weapon ability is called Aptitude, as was pointed out.

And Lightning Mace gives you an extra attack for each threat, not each crit. Much better.



However, in the case of Lightning Mace, you still need Weapon Focus: Light Mace. Likewise for the other Weapon Style feats. Aptitude does not allow you to change the prereq. If you change the Weapon Focus with your Weapon Aptitude class feature, Lightning Mace will cease working because you no longer meet the requirements.

No. You are confusing the Aptitude weapon enchantment with the Weapon Aptitude class feature of the Warblade class.

With the enchantment, you don't have to change any feats. It simply makes your weapon-specific feats (Lightning Mace) apply to the Aptitude weapon, regardless of what it actually is.

[Allanimal]

P(Crit) = (20-lowerEndOfCritRange+1)/20.
So if you have a 30% hit chance, and crit on 19-20, then you have:
P(miss) = 70%
P(crit) = (20-19+1)/20 = 2/20 = 10%


Unless I missed something, that's the chance to threaten a crit. In your example, if a 15-20 hits and a 19-20 is a crit threat, in order to crit, you need to first roll a 19-20 (10% chance) and then confirm with a 15-20 (30%).

So, only 30% of your crit threats are actual crits.
Or only 0.1 * 0.3 = 3%

EDIT: I see that your original formaula is correct, just not mentioned in the explanation of P(crit). So, please ignore my message... :)

[Tael]

Twin +1 Keen Kukri of Adaptation. For this combo to work, you want the stance Blood In The Water and the feat Lightning Mace. Adaptation lets the kukri count as any other weapon for purposes of qualifying for feats. Lightning Mace gives you a free attack every time you crit. Blood in the Water stance gives you a +1 to attack and damage, as an untyped bonus, every time you crit. Dice explode rapidly. Soon, it becomes nearly impossible to miss.

You forget the part where you use Disciple of Dispater with your Aptitude Kukris to get a crit range of 9-20, critting more than you miss, thus netting you almost infinite damage on your first full attack.

[Keld Denar]

Threats that don't hit are not threats. Even if you threatened from 3-20, if a 4 wasn't a successful hit, then that's that.

Also, the aptitude thing is kinda sketchy. Its poorly worded, but you can clearly see from the name being the same as the Warblade ability, that the intent is that it works for feats that require you to CHOOSE a weapon (such as Weapon Focus, or Improved Critical), not feats that specify a single weapon. Thus, you could pick up a +1 Aptitude Longsword and apply your Weapon Focus (Halberd) to it, but you couldn't apply your Spinning Halberd feat to it, since SH doesn't require you to pick a specific weapon.

Yea, its crappily worded, and yea, it could be read the way everyone here reads it, but this is one case where I believe intent is crystal clear. Plus, who would actually allow it that way in a game? I mean, its fun as a thought exercise, but who actually wants to play that?

[Tael]

Yea, its crappily worded, and yea, it could be read the way everyone here reads it, but this is one case where I believe intent is crystal clear. Plus, who would actually allow it that way in a game? I mean, its fun as a thought exercise, but who actually wants to play that?

I don't use it for that of course, but there are a ton of bad weapon specific feats that can be combined for pretty fun builds, giving you a crapload of tactical feats and special effects that would normally be impossible outside of ToB stuff.

[Firechanter]

And Lightning Mace gives you an extra attack for each threat, not each crit. Much better.

Whoa, for each threat? I missed that, too.


No. You are confusing the Aptitude weapon enchantment with the Weapon Aptitude class feature of the Warblade class.

Oh, you're misunderstanding me but I guess I didn't make quite clear what I was up to. I know they are two different things. I was just pointing out that you _need_ to leave the Weapon Focus (Mace) as is, and can't salvage it to get some use out of that feat, so this slot is simply dead weight.

Apart from that wasted feat, the combo by RAW does work, though I doubt this is RAI.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, according to what I interpret as RAI, you WOULD benefit from Weapon Focus (Light Mace) with Aptitude Kukiri's. Basically, the Aptitude weapon enhancement hijacks the part in parenthesis and rewrites it with whatever the weapon you are holding is. So if you had a +1 Aptitude Longsword, you could apply your Weapon Focus (Light Mace) with it, and if you had a +1 Aptitude Heavy Crossbow, you would apply your Weapon Focus (Light Mace) to that as well when you use it. What I don't think that RAI includes is feats that don't allow you to select which weapon you take for it. When you take Weapon Focus, you choose a SPECIFIC weapon to use it on. If you take Weapon Focus a 2nd time, you choose a different SPECIFIC weapon to apply it to. When you take Lightning Maces, it only works with Light Maces. You never choose which weapon you want it to apply to. Its still a specific weapon though, which is all the wording calls for.

Thats what Aptitude was intended to do and not do. That way, Aptitude weapons function similarly to a Warblade's Weapon Aptitude class feature, which by no small coincidence shares a name. Unfortunately, they left the wording so loose that a lawyer could drive a mack truck through it.

[Firechanter]

I think we are both talking about the same thing, but then again, you are confusing me. ^^
I'll try again.

Both features are _supposed_ to do what you said: "Overwrite the weapon name in parantheses with something else". So that is RAI.
The wording of the Apt. property allows you to apply the benefit of Lightning Mace to the Aptitude weapon. That is RAW, but not RAI.

To take Lightning Mace, you had to take Weapon Focus (Light Mace).
Now you technically _could_ use Weapon Apt. to change that into Weapon Focus (Kukri) to gain the +1 to attack.
But then exactly that happens: you overwrite the part in parantheses. You don't have Weapon Focus (Light Mace) anymore, but for instance Weapon Focus (Kukri). Thus you do not meet the prerequisites for Lightning Mace anymore. So you don't benefit from Lightning Mace with -any- weapon, be it a mace or aptitude weapon or whatever.

So to benefit with your Apt. weapon from Lightning Mace, you must _not_ apply your class ability Weap. Apt. to the Weapon Focus.

That's what I was trying to say. D'accord?

[Keld Denar]

To take Lightning Mace, you had to take Weapon Focus (Light Mace).
This part is correct.

Now you technically _could_ use Weapon Apt. to change that into Weapon Focus (Kukri) to gain the +1 to attack.
But then exactly that happens: you overwrite the part in parantheses. You don't have Weapon Focus (Light Mace) anymore, but for instance Weapon Focus (Kukri). Thus you do not meet the prerequisites for Lightning Mace anymore. So you don't benefit from Lightning Mace with -any- weapon, be it a mace or aptitude weapon or whatever.

This is the part that isn't quite correct. It doesn't actually go onto your character sheet and scribble out (Light Mace) and write (Kukri) while you hold it. Its more like it intercepts the signal between the feat and the attack roll and converts it along the way, to use a control systems analogy. You still have Weapon Focus(Light Mace), you are just treated as having Weapon Focus (X) as well while you hold the weapon, where X is the weapon you are holding.

Sorry, my first example was rushed and probably not completely accurate. The 2nd is better.

[jiriku]

D(x) = (d + a)m * n

where:

d = the result from the die roll
a = all of the additive modifiers (power attack, attribute modifier bonus, etc...)
m = the multiplicative modifiers involved. For example: valorous
n = number of attacks made
OK, so,

Where:
d = 12.5, the average of a 5d4 hail of stone
a = 5, the hp loss from a negative level
m = 30 (from multiple doublings upon doublings)
n = 4 castings per round

D(x) = (12.5 average + 5)30 * 4

D(x) = 1,500 average + 120 negative levels and a resultant -120 penalty to all rolls

Build: githyanki sorcerer 8/incantatrix 10. ECL 20. We are githyanki because we will be emulating the astral plane within a persistent planar bubble, in order to quicken spells for no cost whenever we wish.

Selected feats include: Empower Spell, Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic (twin spell), Practical Metamagic (twin spell), Fell Drain, Arcane Thesis (hail of stone), Arcane Thesis (greater arcane fusion), Sculpt Spell, We have others, but they are not germane to an attack routine.

We assume the form of a chronotyrnyn. This grants us two full turns per round. We face a group of disagreeable foes who have unreasonably high touch AC and spell resistance. We cast:

Twinned greater arcane fusion
Quickened twinned greater arcane fusion
Twinned greater arcane fusion
Quickened twinned greater arcane fusion

effectively, we have cast GAF 8 times

Each greater arcane fusion contains/emulates:
twinned arcane fusion
twinned sculpted empowered fell drain hail of stone

effectively, we have cast the equivalent of
16 arcane fusions
24 sculpted fell drain hails of stone

Each arcane fusion contains/emulates:
twinned sculpted empowered fell drain hail of stone x2

effectively producing the equivalent of
96 sculpted fell drain hails of stone

total output:

opponents within a 20-burst or four 10-foot cubes take

120 * 5d4 (rocks fall) + 120 * 5 damage (negative levels), and 120 negative levels.

Foes sustain an average of 1,500 damage and take a -120 penalty to all rolls. Additionall, foes with less than 121 HD are slain by the negative levels even if they survive the damage. No hit roll. No saving throw. No spell resistance.

Cost: four 8th-level spell slots.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

OK, so,

Where:
d = 12.5, the average of a 5d4 hail of stone
a = 5, the hp loss from a negative level
m = 30 (from multiple doublings upon doublings)
n = 4 castings per round

D(x) = (12.5 average + 5)30 * 4

D(x) = 1,500 average + 120 negative levels and a resultant -120 penalty to all rolls

Build: githyanki sorcerer 8/incantatrix 10. ECL 20. We are githyanki because we will be emulating the astral plane within a persistent planar bubble, in order to quicken spells for no cost whenever we wish.

Selected feats include: Empower Spell, Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic (twin spell), Practical Metamagic (twin spell), Fell Drain, Arcane Thesis (hail of stone), Arcane Thesis (greater arcane fusion), Sculpt Spell, We have others, but they are not germane to an attack routine.

We assume the form of a chronotyrnyn. This grants us two full turns per round. We face a group of disagreeable foes who have unreasonably high touch AC and spell resistance. We cast:

Twinned greater arcane fusion
Quickened twinned greater arcane fusion
Twinned greater arcane fusion
Quickened twinned greater arcane fusion

effectively, we have cast GAF 8 times

Each greater arcane fusion contains/emulates:
twinned arcane fusion
twinned sculpted empowered fell drain hail of stone

effectively, we have cast the equivalent of
16 arcane fusions
24 sculpted fell drain hails of stone

Each arcane fusion contains/emulates:
twinned sculpted empowered fell drain hail of stone x2

effectively producing the equivalent of
96 sculpted fell drain hails of stone

total output:

opponents within a 20-burst or four 10-foot cubes take

120 * 5d4 (rocks fall) + 120 * 5 damage (negative levels), and 120 negative levels.

Foes sustain an average of 1,500 damage and take a -120 penalty to all rolls. Additionall, foes with less than 121 HD are slain by the negative levels even if they survive the damage. No hit roll. No saving throw. No spell resistance.

Cost: four 8th-level spell slots.

Sorry, but there's something wrong with your math.

Fell Drain stipulates that each opponent may only loose ONE negative level per casting of the spell. Thus, there are only 96 negative levels applied to opponents in the area, not 120. Also, as the negative level applied by Fell Drain is a static, not a random, figure, Empowered does not apply to it.

[AnonymousD&Der]

Sorry, but there's something wrong with your math.Fell Drain stipulates that each opponent may only loose ONE negative level per casting of the spell. Thus, there are only 96 negative levels applied to opponents in the area, not 120. Also, as the negative level applied by Fell Drain is a static, not a random, figure, Empowered does not apply to it.

I'd like to ask, exactly how many creatures can survive losing 96 negative levels.

Infinite Damage Loups with a 1d2 Weapon, Tarrasque Slaying Falling Charges (sounds like an attack name), and now Negative Level Hyper Combos.... I suddenly no longer feel safe.... unless the DM is feeling nice...

Any chance anyone knows any combos involving the use of Projectile Weapons, or is it all about Loup Holes, Charging, and Arcane Spells?

[Keld Denar]

Olo came up with a way to abuse Hand Crossbows in order to make a stupidly large number of attacks per round. Its a simple Lightning Maces/Aptitude weapon combo attached to a crossbow rather than a kukri.

Well, unless you count the Hulking Hurler. There comes problems calculating how much the planet you are standing on deals to someone when you throw it at them. When you're choice of projectile weapons has its own gravitational field...yea...

[AnonymousD&Der]

Olo came up with a way to abuse Hand Crossbows in order to make a stupidly large number of attacks per round. Its a simple Lightning Maces/Aptitude weapon combo attached to a crossbow rather than a kukri.

Well, unless you count the Hulking Hurler. There comes problems calculating how much the planet you are standing on deals to someone when you throw it at them. When you're choice of projectile weapons has its own gravitational field...yea...

Substituting a Crossbow for Lightning Maces. What part of that is simple.

And dear Lord, how does being the Incredible Hulk work?