Black Pudding and the Warforged

[Lord.Sorasen]

Actually, some general black pudding based questions.

1. I don't get how its acid works. It destroys any item it touches? Even epic weapons? How does a weapon make a reflex save (is it the player's save)? If it destroys whatever it touches, why does it specify doing 21 damage if it remains attached for a full round? Full round to attack what, if it burned it already. I don't get it at all. Does it burn armor and clothes after a full round without seering the targets flesh clean off?
2. What about constructs, such as the warforged, who is both wood and metal? Would it simply dissolve immediately? Can a warforged plating be sundered even?

[FelixG]

I am awayfrom my books but IIRC you cant sunder a warforged characters plating any more than you can sunder a human characters skin

[Lord.Sorasen]

I am awayfrom my books but IIRC you cant sunder a warforged characters plating any more than you can sunder a human characters skin

I shouldn't have said "sunder" but rather should state that any metal that hits a black pudding "deals 21 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects". Also ". Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage, and the opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on DC 21 Reflex saves."

[Kuma Kode]

The operative word is "object." Warforged are not "objects" and so they do not follow those rules. If the warforged is wearing armor, that armor will dissolve, but the plating is granted by a feat, causing it to be innate and therefore part of the warforged itself.

The acid damages objects, regardless of whether they are enchanted or not (though enchanted weapons have quite a few hit points).

Weapons and any worn objects make saves as their owner. Enchanted weapons have their own, which will still usually be lower but they can use their own or their possessors, whichever is higher.

If the weapon fails a save after striking the pudding, it disintegrates. If you are struck and your armor fails a save, it disintegrates. If there is some other object (such as a grate or door) that is neither a weapon being used to hit or is being hit during an attack, it takes 21 points of damage from being in contact with the ooze.

The 21 damage thing is not for equipment, it's for the miscellaneous things the ooze might try to dissolve. Your confusion appears to be resulting from taking the entire section as one block of rule, when in fact it's actually a list of how the pudding's acid effects different situations.

[Lord.Sorasen]

The operative word is "object." Warforged are not "objects" and so they do not follow those rules. If the warforged is wearing armor, that armor will dissolve, but the plating is granted by a feat, causing it to be innate and therefore part of the warforged itself.

The acid damages objects, regardless of whether they are enchanted or not (though enchanted weapons have quite a few hit points).

Weapons and any worn objects make saves as their owner. Enchanted weapons have their own, which will still usually be lower but they can use their own or their possessors, whichever is higher.

If the weapon fails a save after striking the pudding, it disintegrates. If you are struck and your armor fails a save, it disintegrates. If there is some other object (such as a grate or door) that is neither a weapon being used to hit or is being hit during an attack, it takes 21 points of damage from being in contact with the ooze.

The 21 damage thing is not for equipment, it's for the miscellaneous things the ooze might try to dissolve. Your confusion appears to be resulting from taking the entire section as one block of rule, when in fact it's actually a list of how the pudding's acid effects different situations.

What I don't get, is what about weapons with more than 21 health? I mean, one of my characters has a sword which I'm semi-using for plot purposes. An ancestral relic, basically. If hardness gets included in the equation, it should last 21 damage. I mean, isn't this basically saying that if the character swings at the ooze, that would dissolve it faster than if the ooze just sat on it for 6 seconds?

[Kuma Kode]

What I don't get, is what about weapons with more than 21 health? I mean, one of my characters has a sword which I'm semi-using for plot purposes. An ancestral relic, basically. If hardness gets included in the equation, it should last 21 damage. I mean, isn't this basically saying that if the character swings at the ooze, that would dissolve it faster than if the ooze just sat on it for 6 seconds?

Hardness does not apply against acid.

Also, yup. Regardless of the weapon's HP, it dissolves instantly if it fails the save. This may not be highly realistic, but the weapon may not be fully disintegrated. It may just be so warped and pock-marked as to be useless as a weapon.

Black puddings are not "I hit it with my sword" monsters. They're intended for tactics. Either you improvise weapons or kill it with spells or arrows or whatever.

Think of them as lesser spheres of annihilation. Would you stab that?

[FelixG]

Hardness does not apply against acid.


Could I get a source for that? I have seen ti said that some things may not apply hardness against specific energy types, such as glass vs sonic, but i have never seen a writen rule saying acid ignores hardness?

[IthroZada]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

It seems that it can be read that since the second two examples say "before applying hardness" and the first example (consisting of acid and sonic) does not have that clause, that it isn't affected by hardness.

Although I'm not sure if you can also argue that applying damage normally in the case of an object includes subtracting the hardness from the damage.

Edit: Actually, checking the 3.5 FAQ, on page 76 it says:

Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These
attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to
objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an
animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You
would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever
damage a Melf’s acid arrow spell deals to the
animated table in your example.

I myself would consider houseruling against that.

[Kuma Kode]

FAQ is not actually RAW by the books themselves and by players due to the fact that it is frequently self-contradictory (sometimes within the same answer), and I've heard FAQ also say that hardness does not apply to acid. In fact...


Page 28: "Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks." ...and... "Hardness applies to force attacks."

Page 39: "Acid, sonic, and force attacks ignore hardness. Hardness applies to cold, electricity, and fire attacks."

It said both IN THE SAME REVISION.

There's a reason FAQ is not considered RAW, though it does seem it has finally sorted itself out and removed the second answer, so it seems (at least to the FAQ) that acid does NOT bypass hardness unless specifically stated otherwise.

Perhaps I was mistaken, though I would prefer a more RAW example... maybe there's something in Rules Compendium?

[Lord.Sorasen]

FAQ is not actually RAW by the books themselves and by players due to the fact that it is frequently self-contradictory (sometimes within the same answer), and I've heard FAQ also say that hardness does not apply to acid. In fact...



It said both IN THE SAME REVISION.

There's a reason FAQ is not considered RAW, though it does seem it has finally sorted itself out and removed the second answer, so it seems (at least to the FAQ) that acid does NOT bypass hardness unless specifically stated otherwise.

Perhaps I was mistaken, though I would prefer a more RAW example... maybe there's something in Rules Compendium?

I'm going to go ahead and say hardness counts just for my own sake here. I almost always see sonic state specifically that it bypasses hardness in its description. So I'll go with that info.

[Kuma Kode]

Regardless of whether hardness applies to acid, a weapon that fails the save dissolves. That effect does not deal with the object's hit points and therefore hardness doesn't matter.

The 21 is so that it can pretty much eat through anything given time. Its acid is just that potent that it can eat adamantine.

[Eldan]

You could argue that if some instances say that they specifically ignore hardness, those that don't mention it apply hardness. But that's a pretty weak interpretation.

[FelixG]

You could argue that if some instances say that they specifically ignore hardness, those that don't mention it apply hardness. But that's a pretty weak interpretation.

Why would something note that it ignores hardness if it already ignored it in the first place? :smallconfused:

[Firechanter]

Give your weapon the Everbright property and make your armour Blueshine, and you're done with this acid crap for just 3500 bucks.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I've decided my own personal ruling. If it's wrong than it's a house rule.


A black pudding's acid touch dissolves objects on impact. Weapons or armor that touch the pudding must make a reflex save or have their weapon dissolve to the point of becoming non-weapons. (The idea is that if the player, who doesn't know all the rules, uses the magic weapon against the ooze, her weapon will become disfigured and worthless, but she'll still have it for its non-combat purpose, and can get it repaired.) The ooze deals 21 damage to metals or woods it touches for 6 seconds. Warforged do according to their descriptions take damage from effects that particularly effect metal or wood, so while a warforged won't dissolve on impact, it will take 21 damage if the pudding stays attached for a full round.

[mikau013]

FAQ is not actually RAW by the books themselves and by players due to the fact that it is frequently self-contradictory (sometimes within the same answer), and I've heard FAQ also say that hardness does not apply to acid. In fact...



It said both IN THE SAME REVISION.

There's a reason FAQ is not considered RAW, though it does seem it has finally sorted itself out and removed the second answer, so it seems (at least to the FAQ) that acid does NOT bypass hardness unless specifically stated otherwise.

Perhaps I was mistaken, though I would prefer a more RAW example... maybe there's something in Rules Compendium?

If I read the Rule compendium correctly it says that neither acid nor sonic normally bypasses hardness but that certain attacks might deal double damage or ignore hardness.
(Fex I'd rule that fire is more effective vs dried out paper - :))
And ofcourse specifics beat general so if it says so in the spell/power etc it has precendence

- Edit: not sure if I can quote it directly

[Kuma Kode]

I never liked Rules Compendium. If the rules weren't poorly written we wouldn't need a whole other book to clarify things.

But yeah, judging from all the non-PHB sources, it appears I'm wrong.

Or that WoTC finally decided which way they want it. So yeah, looks like hardness works against EVERYTHING unless it specifically states otherwise.

[Thurbane]

I am awayfrom my books but IIRC you cant sunder a warforged characters plating any more than you can sunder a human characters skin
Well, you can sunder a Hydra's head..but that's a specific exception to the rule.