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randomhero00
2011-03-04, 01:37 PM
The obvious: air, earth, water, fire
Then there's the chinese additions of metal and wood (although how would a magic user of one of those elements fight?) And I think void?
then we might add mana/chi/life essence (from bleach for instance, spiritual pressure)

Anything else I'm missing?

Would electricity be considered an element in this way? If not, where would it go to? Metal, air, and fire all seem to be contenders.

Would lava be earth or fire?

PS I mean "pure" elements. Not like in DnD where you might have an elemental.

Urpriest
2011-03-04, 01:56 PM
You forgot these (http://www.webelements.com/).

Temotei
2011-03-04, 01:57 PM
Aether is another.

randomhero00
2011-03-04, 02:07 PM
You forgot these (http://www.webelements.com/).

I meant fantasy elements.


Aether is another
Aether is the same as void, no?

Just like there are multiple words for mana, life essence, spiritual energy, chi, kai, etc.

randomhero00
2011-03-04, 04:05 PM
Has anyone played a game with metal and wood as elements? I can imagine metal somewhat: magnetism, lightning, and...?

But what's wood? Is that healing? Life? Control over plants and such like druids in DnD?

playswithfire
2011-03-04, 04:35 PM
I direct you here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_elements), but I think you've nailed most of them (except Sulfur, Mercury and Salt from the alchemy list), though some systems list thought rather than void/space. Clicking on the wood link, it does seem to represent growth/life.

Bagel
2011-03-04, 04:52 PM
my Homebrew system uses a sort of generalized way of organizing "fantasy elements"

every element has a secondary and an opposite

Earth//Crystal - Sky//Sound
Fire//Plasma - Water//Ice
Wood//Nature - Metal//Technology
Light//Life - Dark//Death
Time//Space -Time//Space

randomhero00
2011-03-04, 05:05 PM
Ah, almost forgot. Light/holy/positive energy and Dark/unholy/negative energy

edit: possibly chaos vs order too.
I read a book once, where it was chaos and order mages. Chaos was hated of course. Order spells would do things like turn you to a crystaline structure such as metal. Chaos just disintegrated you.

Gnaeus
2011-03-04, 05:15 PM
Some people I know refer to Spirit as an element. Personally, I think any system with more than 4 elements is needlessly complicated, and probably imaginary.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-04, 05:25 PM
Some people I know refer to Spirit as an element. Personally, I think any system with more than 4 elements is needlessly complicated, and probably imaginary.
Right . . . (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table):smallbiggrin:

Gnaeus
2011-03-04, 05:38 PM
Right . . . (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table):smallbiggrin:

I make my will save and disbelieve :smallbiggrin:

Mewtarthio
2011-03-04, 05:44 PM
Aether is the same as void, no?

Just like there are multiple words for mana, life essence, spiritual energy, chi, kai, etc.

Aether is the fictitious medium of light. Scientists originally thought it was an omnipresent substance through which electromagnetic waves could travel, explaining how we could see the stars even through the vacuum of space. It could be considered the polar opposite of void in that respect.

Eldan
2011-03-04, 06:16 PM
Aether was also known as Quintessence, which directly translates to Fifth Element.

Chaos and Law aren't really elements, though. They are philospophical concepts or, in the case of Chaos, also the mixture of all elements.

Void, similarly, is the absence of elements.

Has Mercury/Sulphur/Salt been mentioned? I.e. the alchemical elements? And Gold, of course. The essence of god.

some guy
2011-03-04, 06:17 PM
The four humors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism) seem to be linked to the four elements of water, air, fire and earth as well.

And in the adventure game Quest for Glory, Pizza was the fifth element.

Eldan
2011-03-04, 06:21 PM
There's also other Greek concepts, such as the axes of Male-Female, Bright-Dark, Warm-Cold and Wet-Dry.

randomhero00
2011-03-04, 06:54 PM
There's also other Greek concepts, such as the axes of Male-Female, Bright-Dark, Warm-Cold and Wet-Dry.

I'm talking about fantasy magic/sorcerer/mage/wizard channeling elements. Do the greeks channel such?

Ravens_cry awesome response lol

That's a good point about the void Eldan.

Now the question, in this theoretical mish mash of fantasy, is how would mages channel and use such elements? Especially the oddball ones such as gold or sulfur? What would a gold mage look like? (no references to Goldmember from austin powers lol)

randomhero00
2011-03-04, 08:20 PM
Sorry, I should have specified. Elemental Magic. Not just elements.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-04, 08:44 PM
I'm talking about fantasy magic/sorcerer/mage/wizard channeling elements. Do the greeks channel such?

Ravens_cry awesome response lol

That's a good point about the void Eldan.

Now the question, in this theoretical mish mash of fantasy, is how would mages channel and use such elements? Especially the oddball ones such as gold or sulfur? What would a gold mage look like? (no references to Goldmember from austin powers lol)
I would categorize more on the different element groups then each specific one. You could have a subclass based on the Noble Gases or Metals, with magic based on their general properties. For example, the noble gases don't easily combine to form compounds, so some protection spells and since they are colourless, tasteless, and scentless, spells that mimic invisibility? Noble metals like gold are also not very reactive, so similar abjuration spells, yet they also conduct electricity very well, so spells involve that force?
It would be some massive homebrew, but it might be worth it so we don't have to deal with combinationals and reactionals and pretend they are elementals like Dark Age peasants.:smallamused:

Urpriest
2011-03-04, 09:08 PM
Sorry, I should have specified. Elemental Magic. Not just elements.

Any of these are things you could base magic off of. Except maybe the periodic table. Oh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) wait (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html).

Frozen_Feet
2011-03-04, 09:25 PM
Fire, Water, Grass, Ice, Bug, Normal, Flying, Electricity, Ground, Rock, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Steel.

What? :smalltongue:

Alternatively, Wood, Fire, Earth, Water, Metal.

Or Light, Dark, Fire, Ice, Water, Electricity, Earth, Wind.

lightningcat
2011-03-04, 09:37 PM
I like the 6 element system: Fire; Metal; Earth; Wood; Water; Air.
Plus positive and negative energy.

Simple, easy, and covers most fantasy ideas. Plus gives a nice balance which can be screwed with to make adventures. :smalltongue:

Draz74
2011-03-04, 09:49 PM
Pick up a novel by Brandon Sanderson sometime. Anything can become an "element" of a fantasy magic system.

For example, in his Mistborn trilogy, the elements of magic (three interdependent but separate magic systems) are

Iron
Steel
Copper
Bronze
Zinc
Brass
Tin
Pewter
Gold
Electrum
Atium
Malatium
Aluminum
Duralumin
Chromium
Nichrome
Lerasium

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-04, 10:04 PM
:smallfrown: Man, everyone forgets about Heart until they have to summon Captain Planet...

DukeofDellot
2011-03-04, 10:05 PM
Everyone forgot Heart? No Captain for you!

Edit: Aww... man...

...

Trying to make a conclusive list would be pretty difficult. There are a lot of arguments and overlaps and such...

Ice/Frost/Cold is a common element for supers, but many times it's rolled into water (Avatar: the Last Airbender is one such example), Slime/Ooze was one I was fond of at a younger but most would ignore it (I believe I made the Archmage of Slime a final boss in one of my games...). Fate and Time are also popular elements for control powers, but often lead to headaches for the tabletop group. Sound is a lot of fun sometimes and is traditional of... man I forgot which culture but it shows up in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and... erm... Naruto... Animal/Beast could possibly be an element, Death could too, as well as Energy, Electricity, Rock, Liquids, Combustion, Explosions, Speed, Strength...

Life/Love/Heart/Vital-essence/Ki/Chi/Hadou/Chakra/Health is another popular and often renamed one that sometimes gets thrown into the mix.

Further there is always the option to start from scratch, trying to ignore everyone who came before you and come up with a list you feel comfortable with. Personally, I prefer the Kinetic Energy, Thermal Energy, and Mass triad of elements. It keeps things simple.

But that's enough from me...

rayne_dragon
2011-03-04, 10:39 PM
Nobody has mentioned the para-elemental types yet? Ooze, magma, smoke, dust, steam, and all that?

Thurbane
2011-03-04, 10:46 PM
There are Taint Elementals and Shadow Elementals, so arguably Taint and Shadow can be considered elements. There's a Mirror Mephit, so again, arguably Mirror is an element.

Para/Quasi-

Smoke
Ice
Ooze
Magma
Lightning
Minerals
Radiance
Steam
Vacuum
Dust
Ash
Salt

rayne_dragon
2011-03-05, 12:04 AM
There are Taint Elementals and Shadow Elementals, so arguably Taint and Shadow can be considered elements. There's a Mirror Mephit, so again, arguably Mirror is an element.


By that logic given that I'm sure there are some sort of- well, I don't know- let's say Dirty Laundry Elementals in some splat book somewhere, then arguably dirty laundry (and virtually anything else) is an element too.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-05, 12:22 AM
Naw, Raggamoffyns are constructs, not elementals.

DukeofDellot
2011-03-05, 12:59 AM
By that logic given that I'm sure there are some sort of- well, I don't know- let's say Dirty Laundry Elementals in some splat book somewhere, then arguably dirty laundry (and virtually anything else) is an element too.

I believe that is a correct assumption.

Fhaolan
2011-03-05, 02:14 AM
Okay, let's see, according to the various RL systems:

Earth - is dry and cold [Greek], manifests as black bile (something to do with bones) and melancholy in the body [Humors], is the base element as it involves all five senses (hearing, touch, sight, taste, smell) [Hindi], represents solidity [Budhism, Tibeian]. Some systems [Alchemy] use 'Salt' as the true, pure Earth.

Water - is cold and wet [Greek], manifests as phlegm in the body [Humors], and involves four senses (hearing, touch, sight, taste) [Hindi], represents fluidity[Budhism], cohesion [Tibetan]. Some systems [Alchemy] use Mercury (or Acid) as the true, pure Water.

Fire - is hot and dry [Greek], manifests as yellow bile (something to do with the lungs) and choleric in the body [Humors], involves three senses (hearing, touch, sight) [Hindi], represents temperature [Budhism, Tibetan]. Some systems [Alchemy] use Sulphur (or Phlogiston) as the true, pure Fire.

Air - is wet and hot [Greek], manifests as blood and sanguine in the body [Humors]. only two senses (hearing, touch) [Hindi], represents mobilty [Budhism, Tibetan]. Tao doesn't have Air as such, but does have Wood whiich has many of the same philisophical properties as Air. Alchemy steals a bit from Tao with Silver being the true, pure Wood.

Aether/Quintessence/Void [Not meaning vaccuum] - is the only uncorruptable element [Greek], carries sound but nothing else (hearing) [Hindi], sound again [Budhism], is the container for all other elements [Tibetan]. Tao doesn't have Aether as such, but does have Metal which has many of the same philsophical properties as Aether. Alchemy steals a bit from Tao, with Gold being the true, pure Metal.

Light - not in many systems, but does appear in some variants of Budhism/Tibetan. In these systems, electricity or lightning appears to be a 'corrupt' verson of Light.

Thought/Spirit - not in many systems, but does appear in some variants of Budhism/Tibetan.

Some of these things don't quite add up given our modern understanding of elements, but that's the point, isn't it. I wouldn't have gotten Silver as pure Wood/Air myself, but I don't have that kind of mindeset.

I haven't been able to come up with anything that can't be covered by the above. Which is probably why most of these systems stopped at that point as well. :smallbiggrin:

Xuc Xac
2011-03-05, 02:31 AM
The obvious: air, earth, water, fire
Then there's the chinese additions of metal and wood (although how would a magic user of one of those elements fight?) And I think void?
then we might add mana/chi/life essence (from bleach for instance, spiritual pressure)

The Chinese elements in the Wu Xing system are not substances, they are processes or energies. The names are just a mnemonic device to remember the ways they interact with each other. You wouldn't be a magic user of "Metal" any more than you would be a warrior of "Swinging" or "Thrusting".

Calm, fresh air (like in an open, well-ventilated room, but with no breeze) is Earth. Wind is Wood. Compressing air (like filling an LP tank) is Metal. Releasing compressed air (such as opening an LP tank or popping a balloon) is Fire. Stagnant, stale air (like in a closed room) is Water. This is why these five elements are used in so many different disciplines from architecture to martial arts to medicine. They aren't about substances, but the way substances interact with each other.

For example, in martial arts, your body can use these different processes without changing substance. "Water nourishes Wood, Wood feeds Fire, Fire creates Earth (ash), Earth bears Metal, Metal carries Water." = "Resting restores your energy, energy lets you strike, striking will make you bounce back from the target (as Newton explains), when you bounce back you need to return to a stable rest position, resting restores your energy". It's not really that mystical when you really dig into it. It's basically Newton's Laws explained through poetry instead of mathematics.

Arbane
2011-03-05, 03:18 AM
Sweet, Boom, Pungent, Prickle, and Orange?

(Note: NEVER summon a Pungent Elemental inside any building you plan on returning to ever again.)

For more Fantasy-ish elements, how about Time, Fate, Thought, and Space?

Don't forget Pizza. Would YOU want to live in a universe devoid of Pizza?

And I personally plan to use Failure Elementals in a game someday, as Failure seems to be more prevalent an element of existence than hydrogen. (Along with Stupidity, of course.)

ffone
2011-03-05, 03:50 AM
The five elements are earth, wind, water, fire, and the orange-haired crazy chick who beats people up alongside Korben Dallas (maybe she was 'heart'?).

Bagel
2011-03-05, 05:31 AM
heart/positive enrgy are usually the same thing in concept in most systems

and a note to the quasi elements

my system considers them to be combinations of two elements

fire-water = steam

water - dark = poison or ooze

fire - earth = Magma

earth - water = Mud

sand is just a derivative of earth

Sky-Fire = Lightning

endoperez
2011-03-05, 05:49 AM
Ars Magica has 10 Forms that are used as magical elements, even though some of them aren't elements in traditional sense. Still, they are used to control various things, so they work.

Animal - animals and objects crafted from animal products like leather or bone.
Herbam - plants and objects crafted from plant matter like cotton or wood.

Auram - air anything having to do with air, including flight, winds, lighting and weather.
Aquam - water (and all liquids in general): can affect specific types of weather such as rain. Ice is under water in some editions, earth in others (since Ice is solid).
Ignem - fire, including light and heat
Terram - earth and minerals, or any other non-living solid

Corpus - the human body. Healing, controlling, destroying etc humans directly. Mind is separate.
Mentem - intelligence and the mind, including humans and ghosts. Mentem doesn't affect animals. You can use it to make people ignore things as if they weren't there.
Imaginem - senses, images and stuff, including invisibility.
Vim - pure magic, and commanding/harming/affecting creatures of pure magic, including demons, supernatural creatures, and the evil spirits that cause illnesses.


There's also the six Elements of Harmon from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic: Honesty, Kindness, Laughter, Generosity, Loyalty, and Friendship.

edit:
Oh, and a console JRPG called Grandia had four elements that had to be learned separately for each character, and four combinations that became available when the same character knows more than one element.
Fire - burnination and offensive buffs
Water - ice damage and healing
Earth - earthquakes, hurled rocks and defensive buffs
Air - slashing winds, tornadoes and movement buffs

Fire+Earth -> Magma, lots of damage and good combat buffs
Fire+Air -> Lighting, AoE damage and paralyzing spells
Earth+Water -> Plants, can't remember any more, some sort of buffs maybe
Air+Water -> Blizzard, damage, causing and clearing advanced status effects

Eldan
2011-03-05, 06:42 AM
I'm talking about fantasy magic/sorcerer/mage/wizard channeling elements. Do the greeks channel such?


Well, no. But the four elements of fire, earth, water and air are connected to those axes, and they are also Greek, so I thought I'd mention it.

HappyBlanket
2011-03-05, 06:49 AM
Nobody linked to the tvtropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElementalPowers) yet? For shame!

Scroll down, there are dozens of elements. Two dozens, specifically. It includes classics like Earth and Wind to oddities like Radiation and Moon.

Eldan
2011-03-05, 06:55 AM
We also have to include the entire D&D system at least once, I think.

So:

We have the four elements of Air, Fire, Earth and Water and the two energies of negative (death) and positive (life).

The interaction of Air and Fire produces Smoke. The Interaction of Fire and Earth produces Magma. The interaction of Earth and Water produces Ooze. The interaction of Water and Air produces Ice. These are the paraelementals.

The interaction of Air and positive produces Lightning. The interaction of Fire and positive produces Radiance. The interaction of Earth and Positive produces Minerals. The interaction of Water and Positive produces steam. These are the positive quasielementals.

The interaction of Air and Negative produces Vacuum. The interaction of Fire and Negative produces Ash. The interaction of Earth and Negative produces Dust. The Interaction of Water and Negative produces Salt. These are the negative quasielementals.

Then there's the Ravenloft Elements of Blood (tainted Water), Grave (Tainted Earth), Pyre (Tainted Fire) and, perhaps the most important, Mist (Tainted Air).

Let's not go into Pseudoelementals. There's too many.

Weimann
2011-03-05, 07:04 AM
Exalted uses Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Wood. In the machine world Autochthonia, there are instead the elements Metal, Crystal, Smoke, Lighting, Oil and Steam.

Really, an "element" is what you make of it. There's nothing saying that any old thing you like can't be an element, since it's so ill defined.

OracleofWuffing
2011-03-05, 07:56 PM
*Slaps forehead in remembering*

Kingdom of Loathing as Hot, Cold, Spooky, Stinky, and Sleazy as its elements. Physical, Shadow, and Bad Spelling are also there, but not "elements." Then it is hinted that there will sometime be Cuteness as a sixth element.

ffone
2011-03-05, 09:06 PM
Square games (Final Fantasy and especially Secret of Mana franchises) usually have the four classics or eight, adding Light, Dark, Moon, and Wood/Dryad.

Moon is basically associated with shapechanging, lycanthropes, etc. The 'moon spells' in mana games usually include what in DnD what would be Baleful Polymorph (with one or two preselected weak forms to turn foes into, usually with a limited duration) They also tend to associate the elements with buffing certain stats:

Fire - strength / physical attack power
Air - agility/dexterity
Earth - Con / fort
Water - magic power, wis/int

Final Fantasy XII had these 8 elements for spells (see trtropes elemental paper scissors rock) elements which some spells and weapons had 'descriptors' for:

fire
cold
water
earth
electricity
air
light
dark

as well as some other 'elements' which lacked descriptors but had thematically associated bosses and spells:

poison
death
soul (?)
magic (?)
gravity - common in the FF series, often does damage proportionate to your current HP. I like it as an element since it is a force of nature (which seems to get taken for granted in folklore, probably b/c it's so ubiquitous in life.)

The game also had a running Zodiac correspondence (plus the 13th non-zodiac constellation, Ophiuchus) to the elements

Kami2awa
2011-03-06, 06:58 AM
In Chinese legend, each element both creates and destroys one other element, so for instance water generates wood (by growing trees) but overcomes fire. This would be a good mechanic for counterspell effects; I'm not sure about the creation aspect though.

tordirycgoyust
2011-03-06, 10:00 PM
Zephyr-Clear Gasses
Vapor-Opaque Gasses
Spark-Fire
Lucentia-Quartz, Glass, Crystal
Pulp-Plants
Blood-Non Oil Liquid
Tallow-Oil
Foil-Metal
Talus-Rock, Stone
Sinew-Meat, Flesh

From Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archives, the Ten Essences.
It is most efficient by far to use the Essence in one's spell though there are associated things entirely within that domain and (probably?) hybrids.