Could someone explain sneak attack to me?

[WarKitty]

So, I'm running a pathfinder game with a ranged rogue. I need a bit of brushing up on how exactly sneak attack works in conjunction with hiding. Specifically:

(1) If the player is invisible and the monster cannot see invisible creatures, all attacks are sneak attacks, correct?

(2) If the player is hiding, their first attack is a sneak attack, and all others are normal attacks?

If I am correct about #2, what would the best weapon enhancements and feats be to maximize damage on this attack? Or any other general tricks? Note that neither the ring of blinking or the wand of grease work in pathfinder.

[Fax Celestis]

1. Yes and no, depending. If you're under regular invisibility, your first attack will break the spell, meaning your first attack will get SA but the rest won't. Something like, say, greater invisibility doesn't have that problem.

2. Yes. Use Vital Strike.

[WarKitty]

1. Yes and no, depending. If you're under regular invisibility, your first attack will break the spell, meaning your first attack will get SA but the rest won't. Something like, say, greater invisibility doesn't have that problem.

2. Yes. Use Vital Strike.

Vital strike is only an extra 1d8 though. I'm somewhat concerned that won't be enough to make much of a difference for only having one decent attack a round. (For comparison, we have a melee rogue that uses flanking and TWF to get sneak attack on all 4 iterative attacks.)

[bloodtide]

1.Yes, as long as your invisible.

2.It depends what qualifies the sneak attack. In general, if you sneak attack someone and they are flat footed, all your attack in a single round can be sneak attacks. The person can't 'readjust' and become un-flat footed, until their turn.

For example-round 1 They don't know you are there and you jump out of the bushes and sneak attack, they get no action until after you attack. Not just one attack, but all your attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

Also, if your flanking (I think there is away to get ranged flank, but I don't have that book) all your attacks count as Sneak Attack.

[Ashram]

So, I'm running a pathfinder game with a ranged rogue. I need a bit of brushing up on how exactly sneak attack works in conjunction with hiding. Specifically:

(1) If the player is invisible and the monster cannot see invisible creatures, all attacks are sneak attacks, correct?

(2) If the player is hiding, their first attack is a sneak attack, and all others are normal attacks?

If I am correct about #2, what would the best weapon enhancements and feats be to maximize damage on this attack? Or any other general tricks? Note that neither the ring of blinking or the wand of grease work in pathfinder.

If you're not terribly attached to trapfinding, something good to take would be the Sniper archetype from Advanced Player's Guide; the 1st level ability halves all range increment penalties (Like Far Shot) and replaces trapfinding, and the 3rd level ability increases the range of your sneak attack by 10 ft. plus an extra 10 ft. every three levels and replaces trapsense. There's also a host of good ranged feats and rogue talents in APG.

Outside of that, the only way to really minmax your sneak attack is to dip into 3.5, which probably isn't allowed.

[WarKitty]

If you're not terribly attached to trapfinding, something good to take would be the Sniper archetype from Advanced Player's Guide; the 1st level ability halves all range increment penalties (Like Far Shot) and replaces trapfinding, and the 3rd level ability increases the range of your sneak attack by 10 ft. plus an extra 10 ft. every three levels and replaces trapsense. There's also a host of good ranged feats and rogue talents in APG.

Outside of that, the only way to really minmax your sneak attack is to dip into 3.5, which probably isn't allowed.

Have that down already. 3.5 dips are allowed, but most of the classic stuff seems to have been re-written so it doesn't work anymore for providing sneak attacks.

If there's a way to get ranged flanking without putting yourself in smacking range I'd be interested.

[SurlySeraph]

The only way I know of to get ranged flanking is with Whisperknife, a Halfling-only PrC; and it's at tenth level, it's only within 10 feet, and it's not a very good PrC other than that.

I vaguely remember an argument that a Bloodstorm Blade could count as flanking with thrown attacks, but it seemed pretty dubious.

[Ashram]

Have that down already. 3.5 dips are allowed, but most of the classic stuff seems to have been re-written so it doesn't work anymore for providing sneak attacks.

If there's a way to get ranged flanking without putting yourself in smacking range I'd be interested.

No Deadly Precision? Sadface. ):

The obvious ones are Deadly Precision (Either the +1 MIC version or the +2 version from a book of which I can't remember), Rogue's Vest (MIC) and Assassination (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Bracers of Murder (Drow of the Underdark) are also awesome for allowing you to reroll any roll of 1 on your SA without blowing a feat for it. Sniper Goggles (APG) are amazing for ranged rogues, as they let you sneak attack from any range; if the sneak attack is within 30 ft., you get +2 damage per SA die.

As for ranked flanking, there's Deadeye Shot from PHB2, which lets you ready an action for when a teammate hits an opponent; if the attack is successful, you get a free attack that denies them their Dex bonus (So, sneak attack). As far as I know, the only way to be able to flank with a bow is a be a high-level Pathfinder fighter with the Crossbowman archetype.

[Firechanter]

I vaguely remember an argument that a Bloodstorm Blade could count as flanking with thrown attacks, but it seemed pretty dubious.

While I do think that Bloodstorm Blades are pretty awesome in their capabilitis and an underrated PrC, ranged flanking is not something I would attribute to them. I guess the argument is that they can "treat ranged attacks as melee attacks", but I feel that's only meant for effects concerning the attacker, not the target.

[Fax Celestis]

You could take Adaptable and Vexing Flanker from PHB-II, and use a continuous reach weapon (like a spiked chain): on your turn, designate a square you threaten and count as being in that square for the purposes of flanking.

Basically, walk up to a dude, designate the square behind him, and now you're flanking with yourself! Stabbity stab stab...is what will happen when you try this on your DM, and I can tell you right now that DMGs are deceptively sharp.

[MeeposFire]

You could take Adaptable and Vexing Flanker from PHB-II, and use a continuous reach weapon (like a spiked chain): on your turn, designate a square you threaten and count as being in that square for the purposes of flanking.

Basically, walk up to a dude, designate the square behind him, and now you're flanking with yourself! Stabbity stab stab...is what will happen when you try this on your DM, and I can tell you right now that DMGs are deceptively sharp.

Unless you believe the FAQ then you cannot do that.

[Fax Celestis]

Unless you believe the FAQ then you cannot do that.

Adaptable Flanker's text:

As a swift action, you designate a single opponent as the target of this feat. When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.
...which basically says that yes, you can do exactly that.

[Shademan]

as long as your target is denied his dex bonus to AC you get a sneak attack.
use this wisely

[mikau013]

Adaptable Flanker's text:

As a swift action, you designate a single opponent as the target of this feat. When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.
...which basically says that yes, you can do exactly that.

Unless you read it you can choose to count from any square you threaten instead of your own square.
In which case the you is more for something like (M stands for monster, p for other player and x for you)

m p
x

and you you count yourself as on the monsters left so the situation would be

x m p

[Fax Celestis]

Unless you read it you can choose to count from any square you threaten instead of your own square.

...the feat's text pretty explicitly clarifies this is in addition, not instead of, with the second sentence's use of "also".


When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.

[Hazzardevil]

Providing your not too attached to your bow I reccomend teh crossbow sniper feat, it increases your range with sneak attack to 60 ft and adds half your dex to crossbow damage. When your a rogue, shooting point blank isn't fun.

[Vangor]

You could take Adaptable and Vexing Flanker from PHB-II, and use a continuous reach weapon (like a spiked chain): on your turn, designate a square you threaten and count as being in that square for the purposes of flanking.

Basically, walk up to a dude, designate the square behind him, and now you're flanking with yourself!

Issue is you cannot flank with yourself. The enemy has to be threatened by a creature friendly to you, as in a creature which is not yourself.

[WarKitty]

No Deadly Precision? Sadface. ):

The obvious ones are Deadly Precision (Either the +1 MIC version or the +2 version from a book of which I can't remember), Rogue's Vest (MIC) and Assassination (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Bracers of Murder (Drow of the Underdark) are also awesome for allowing you to reroll any roll of 1 on your SA without blowing a feat for it. Sniper Goggles (APG) are amazing for ranged rogues, as they let you sneak attack from any range; if the sneak attack is within 30 ft., you get +2 damage per SA die.

As for ranked flanking, there's Deadeye Shot from PHB2, which lets you ready an action for when a teammate hits an opponent; if the attack is successful, you get a free attack that denies them their Dex bonus (So, sneak attack). As far as I know, the only way to be able to flank with a bow is a be a high-level Pathfinder fighter with the Crossbowman archetype.

I'll take a look at some of this.


Providing your not too attached to your bow I reccomend teh crossbow sniper feat, it increases your range with sneak attack to 60 ft and adds half your dex to crossbow damage. When your a rogue, shooting point blank isn't fun.

PF sniper archetype solves this problem.


as long as your target is denied his dex bonus to AC you get a sneak attack.
use this wisely

Well yes...but removing the dex bonus doesn't seem to be that easy.

[Fax Celestis]

Issue is you cannot flank with yourself. The enemy has to be threatened by a creature friendly to you, as in a creature which is not yourself.

According to?

Even so, you are your own ally, and you are considered friendly and willing for all your own effects.

Plus:


When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.

[Gnaeus]

Well yes...but removing the dex bonus doesn't seem to be that easy.

Greater invisibility works.

Anything that blinds the opponent, like Blindness, Glitterdust, or Blinding Spittle, works.

Cowering (fear effect) works.

Stunned works.

For me, the Ring of Blinking nerf was like the Wildshape nerf. I never had a DM who would allow the unnerfed 3.5 text, so given my choice between a nerf and a ban, I'll take the nerf.

[Fax Celestis]

Also the armor lock spell from Complete Scoundrel and distract assailant from Spell Compendium do pretty well.

[MeeposFire]

Adaptable Flanker's text:

...which basically says that yes, you can do exactly that.

I said if you believe the official FAQ it does not work. The FAQ says it does not work (specifically page 38). Obviously you do not believe in the validity of the FAQ and that is fine in and of itself but it does not invalidate my point that the FAQ says you can't so if you actually go by the FAQ it does not work (and you apparently do not).

[Gralamin]

I said if you believe the official FAQ it does not work. The FAQ says it does not work (specifically page 38). Obviously you do not believe in the validity of the FAQ and that is fine in and of itself but it does not invalidate my point that the FAQ says you can't so if you actually go by the FAQ it does not work (and you apparently do not).


Unless you believe the FAQ then you cannot do that.

"Unless you believe the FAQ then you cannot..." indicates the FAQ allows you to, and RAW doesn't.

[MeeposFire]

"Unless you believe the FAQ then you cannot..." indicates the FAQ allows you to, and RAW doesn't.

No the FAQ says that you cannot flank with yourself using adaptable flanker since it says "No. This feat doesn't let you get around the rule of flanking, which is that you need an ally to accomplish it". Obviously Fax does not believe in using the FAQ for this which is what my comment is about. The FAQ says no.

[Vangor]

According to?

The PHB section on Flanking:


When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Relevant portions bolded. One could try and use the you are your own ally argument for the first portion, but they explicitly mention "two" and differentiate between the "creature or character" which "helps" the "attacker".


Plus:

Yes, this would be the wording to adaptable flanker. The feat does nothing to create an exception to the wording of the PHB. Requires ignoring the actual wording of the feat, rules of flanking, and intent of the feat to do. If you can find a DM willing to, more power to you.

[Fax Celestis]

The PHB section on Flanking:...delineates a "friendly creature". You are your own ally, and therefore fit into that description.


they explicitly mention "two" and differentiate between the "creature or character" which "helps" the "attacker"....and the feat steps around that by letting you "count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies." You still "also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." Basically, the feat lets you act like you are in two places at once, as if you were two characters.

[Vknight]

I agree with Fax the entire feats purpose is to get around things that normally limit your ability to sneak attack.
Also it makes sense because it is o****ing yourself as being in two places at once making yourself 2creatures on a tecicality for flanking.

[Vangor]

...delineates a "friendly creature". You are your own ally, and therefore fit into that description.

No, you are your own ally for the purposes of effects which target allies.


...and the feat steps around that by letting you "count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." Basically, the feat lets you act like you are in two places at once, as if you were two characters.

The feat does not allow you to act as though you are in two places at once, the feat changes where flanking is determined by acting for one purpose as though you occupy more than one space, exactly as a large or larger creature can but with the ability to separate those spaces via reach. For instance, spells which only target the location you are designating via adaptable flanker do not effect.

Further, you make a tremendous leap by suggesting counting for the purposes of flanking from two positions somehow allows you to count as two characters. Nothing suggests this. Again, you are not in two places at once, you occupy more squares for flanking purposes strictly, exactly as a large or larger creature.

[Fax Celestis]

you occupy more squares for flanking purposes strictly, exactly as a large or larger creature.

...and if I occupy more squares, then shouldn't I be able to flank from them?

The feat specifically calls out that your phantom flank position provides flanking benefits for both your allies and you.


When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.

Specific text trumps general text.

[ffone]

"flanking bonuses for you and allies" doesn't necessarily imply you can flank with yourself.

What they clearly mean by 'for you and allies' is that, you gain the flanking status AND your ally does, as opposed to just one of you.

If it just said "for allies", what it would mean is that when you using Vex Flanking, your ally gets the +2 attack (and sneak attack damage, if he has sneak attack), but you don't. If it said "for you", it would mean the reverse - you get flanking bonus, your ally doesn't.

It saying 'you and allies' just means you both count as flanking the foe (when you otherwise both would not).

The "you also occupy your current square" means that, for example, if you have 2 other allies A and B, one of whom is flanking enemy C from your current space and one of whom would flank enemy D with you from your 'VF-designated' space, using Vexing Flanker doesn't remove the flanked-ness if enemy C that you and ally A get. There are other situations this clause applies to (you redesginate yourself with VF, but then your enemy moves to a place only your 'actual square' would flank from, and then provokes an AoO.)

That is what the text says and means. Nothing says you can flank with yourself. You can't flank with yourself normally, and VF does not say it overrides that, nor does what it says imply that.

Can you coninvce your DM to let VF do that? Maybe. But it is not RAW, and from the FAQ (and common sense), apparently not RAI.

[Curmudgeon]

...and if I occupy more squares, then shouldn't I be able to flank from them?
Yes, and you're always your own ally. That still doesn't make you alone "two friendly characters", which is the basic requirement for flanking.

It's just not RAW possible.

[Fax Celestis]

You can't flank with yourself normally

Yes, you can. Be a dvati.

[Vangor]

...and if I occupy more squares, then shouldn't I be able to flank from them?

This is not the point of contention. You are able to flank from those squares; after all, this is the entire purpose of adaptable flanker.


The feat specifically calls out that your phantom flank position provides flanking benefits for both your allies and you.

Yes. Again, not the point of contention. The other positions allow you to gain flanking far more often by proving more squares to draw between.


Specific text trumps general text.

Except none of the specific text interacts with the general text referred to. Loose interpretation and leaps of logic are not specific text.

[Vknight]

Let it go it's all up to the Dm and it just sounds awesome enough that most would alow it considering it does not work on anything larger then well 'Large' note the 2squares so it only works on Medium or lower.

[Fax Celestis]

The other positions allow you to gain flanking far more often by proving more squares to draw between.According to your interpretation.

Except none of the specific text interacts with the general text referred to....yes it does, but there is no convincing you so I won't bother.

[Vknight]

Guys can we please stop fighting and agree to disagree you know it's all up to the Dm.

[Ravens_cry]

Guys can we please stop fighting and agree to disagree you know it's all up to the Dm.
Some of the people here are DM's and want a logically defensible reason for whatever ruling they give. You, as DM, could just say, well whatever, but that's rather arbitrary and arbitrariness breaks immersion and immersion breaking makes this a game of rolling strange dice, nothing more.

[Vknight]

I'm the regular Dm for my group.
I see it as the person using the chains length to strike the opponent from behind well dueling from the front.

[ffone]

...and if I occupy more squares, then shouldn't I be able to flank from them?

The feat specifically calls out that your phantom flank position provides flanking benefits for both your allies and you.


...and that benefit to you is that you get the bonuses of flanking, as do your allies.

The "benefit to you" is not that you're your flanker. The benefit to you is that you get the +2 attack (and sneak attack damage if you have it) by being treated as flanking with said ally.

The reason it specifically calls out 'you' is b/c, if it left that out, then it would be saying only your allies' attacks get the flanking bonuses.

Consider: if, with normal flanking, I said "your position is giving you flanking bonuses", it would be perfectly obvious to everyone that that meant, b/c you're in a position where you and an ally are flanking something, you get flanking bonuses. This is all that's saying.

[Lycar]

Well yes...but removing the dex bonus doesn't seem to be that easy.
Unless you wan to limit yourself to sniping from a distance, you can ask one of your melee buddies to pick up the Dirty Trick feat maybe. One of the allowed effects of a Dirty Trick is to blind the enemy for a turn.

Blinded enemies lose their Dex bonus to AC... :smallcool:

Of course your fighter buddy is giving up a perfectly good standard action for this, so you better make your Sneak Attacks count.

Use Rogue Abilities like Bleeding Attack or Slow Reactions for this, each adding a nice effect to every Sneak Attack, ranged or otherwise, that you land.

Oh and Surprise Attack means that all enemies are considered flat-footed during the surprise round, even if they already have acted.

Lycar

[ericgrau]

The best trick to get the most sneak attack damage for range is to beat some monster's initiative, which isn't hard. He is still flat footed so all your attacks are sneak attacks. You can combine this with sneaking up on your foes to get both a single attack in the surprise round (standard action) and a full attack in round 1 (full round action), both sneak attacks.

After combat begins you can't hide again because the enemy has already seen you. Some DMs ignore this rule, but spending a turn on hiding and attacking every other round is a tremendous waste of time anyway. You're better off getting something like greater invisibility or flanking. You can carry a masterwork or magical buckler without any non-proficiency penalty nor other penalties. Except you lose the buckler AC during rounds when you fire the bow. Then you, a fragile rogue, can flank more safely. Weapon finesse helps too. Since most of your damage comes from sneak attack you can afford to do this even while still focusing on your bow. And it only takes 1 feat (weapon finesse), which early on isn't essential if you have an ok strength. A good option at higher levels, but before you can use greater invisibility or a ring of blinking or so on, is to get a spells storing melee weapon. So when you do finally resort to melee you can make 1 of your few hits pretty spectacular.

Get rapid shot as soon as possible for the extra attack for a little more sneak attack damage. Unlike other archers precise shot is less important since you do most of your damage before others have acted and engaged each-other.

[Vknight]

Eric has now given some of the best advise. Rapid Shot is amazingly useful for rogues that are archers.

[Curmudgeon]

After combat begins you can't hide again because the enemy has already seen you. Some DMs ignore this rule, but spending a turn on hiding and attacking every other round is a tremendous waste of time anyway.
It doesn't take a whole turn to break line of sight to let you Hide again. If you can move around an obstruction that provides total concealment you're not being observed. If you then continue moving to where you've got either (partial) cover or concealment you can Hide, all with one move action. Then you can use a standard action to attack from hiding. Given appropriate terrain features you could repeat this sequence each round.

Clearly Hide in Plain Sight (the Supernatural form, or with Camouflage) is a better option, since its terrain requirements are easier to satisfy (any natural surroundings, or nearby shadow).