[3.5] Improved Trip

[Apophis775]

So, The way my players see this feat, is that they can use a sickle to trip someone, then make additional attacks with the sickle as if they had not used it for a trip.

I see the feat as if your unarmed and you trip someone, you can make your attacks as if you hadn't made the attack.

See, Improved trip for me is stopping the AOO from tripping unarmed and giving a bit of a bonus to people who fight unarmed. I don't see it as a I'm a rogue and now your on the ground forever.

[Lyndworm]

Your players are right, actually; if the weapon can be used to make Trip attempts, it's just as eligible for the feat as an unarmed strike.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Uh, I'm not quite understanding the question for some reason. You can trip unarmed, and even if you don't have IUS, you can still trip (with Improved Trip) without provoking an attack of opportunity. There are also a few special weapons, like the whip or spiked chain, that can be used to trip. Improved trip allows you to trip and make a free attack against your opponent (if you succeed on the trip). So you first make the touch attack to trip, then, if successful, you get a normal melee attack against them.

It benefits both unarmed warriors and those using special tripping weapons alike.

[AslanCross]

Houseruling it is fine, but RAW is pretty clear that it does not make any distinction between unarmed combat and armed combat. In general, you can always make a trip attempt when unarmed, but only certain weapons allow for tripping. That does not affect the feat's clause on gaining an additional attack when tripping.

[FMArthur]

However, "on the ground forever" is not something they can actually do. It provokes an attack of opportunity to try to stand back up within their reach, but since AoOs happen and resolve before the action that provokes can take place, they're still prone at the time of the attack and aren't prevented from standing up afterwards as they complete the action. And AoOs can't be voluntarily delayed until they finish or anything like that; you choose at the moment of provocation to attack or not to attack, and if you do you make it immediately or you don't at all.

Unarmed strikes have no special restrictions on tripping (other than you not being able to "drop" your unarmed strike to prevent yourself from being tripped if you fail), but make sure they actually are able to make AoOs with their unarmed strikes (Monks, people with the IUS feat, touch spells).

[AslanCross]

However, "on the ground forever" is not something they can actually do. It provokes an attack of opportunity to try to stand back up within their reach, but since AoOs happen and resolve before the action that provokes can take place, they're still prone at the time of the attack and aren't prevented from standing up afterwards as they complete the action.

Truth. You can't trip someone who's still on the ground.

[John Campbell]

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt.
Doesn't say anything in there about "unarmed".

The bits about avoiding AoOs on trip attempts all talk about unarmed, but that's because armed trip attempts don't provoke to begin with.

And if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, your unarmed trip attempts don't provoke, even if you don't have Improved Trip. The AoO for an unarmed trip attempt is "as normal for unarmed attacks" (not just a straight-up AoO for attempting it, as with, say, disarm), and your normal unarmed attacks don't provoke with IUS.

Also note that you can't trip someone with the AoO provoked when they try to stand up. AoOs happen before the action that provoked them resolves, so at the time you make the AoO, they're still prone and thus cannot be tripped.

[FMArthur]

Even still, knocking your foes on their asses really is an effective enemy management strategy. It's one of the few ways that your party's "meatshields" will find themselves to be actually capable of preventing people from just strolling on past them to beat up your spellcasters. Even then they can still be tumbled around.

IMO tripping is just good, and makes melee combat more than just picking up people smaller than you and comparing how big your numbers are to the next guy's. You shouldn't need spells to have interesting mundane battles.

[The_Jackal]

RAW is pretty clear, and I think house-ruling this is a mistake. If you're concerned about players abusing trip, there's lots of workarounds. High strength/dex, multiple limbs, mobility (helps avoid the AOO from getting up, yes, getting up is movement), levitate (can't trip someone who's doesn't need their feet to hold them off the ground), size, even just raw numbers will keep your tripping rogue from getting too abusive.

Now if he wants to get the free attack from Imp. Trip without actually taking the feat, just because he's got a weapon that has the 'trip' feature, then no, that's not legal. But that doesn't sound like what's going on here.

[Hatchet91]

The idea is Flaming weapon sickle, with a Trip attack followed with his full attack with sneak attacks

also combat reflexes so Attacks of Opertunity,

at the time i was looking to optimize a fun Combat oriented rogue.

What i wanted was first attack trip with the free attack from the feat, and to be able to continue with a full attack.

any ideas for a lvl 9 combat orientated rogue would be apreciated just message me)

[Apophis775]

Erasinated

[The_Jackal]

Where is it written that a prone enemy is denied their dex bonus to AC? Sure, they're at a -4 penalty to AC vs melee, so you'll more likely hit with everything, but you'll still need someone around to flank. Also, I'm confused as to why the sickle is preferred to any other weapon. It's basically a short sword without the extra threat range or martial pre-requisite.

[Master_Rahl22]

It doesn't quite work that way. The way Improved Trip works is if you successfully trip something, you then get one free attack on it. You cannot use the feat for a "free trip attack" and then follow that with a full attack action.

[MeeposFire]

It doesn't quite work that way. The way Improved Trip works is if you successfully trip something, you then get one free attack on it. You cannot use the feat for a "free trip attack" and then follow that with a full attack action.

I think he was using shorthand. If you use an attack to trip and you succeed then you get a free attack at the same attack bonus. So in the end it is as if you got a free trip attempt though only if you succeed. Of course if you miss the fact that it actually is not free will become obvious.

[Apophis775]

Actually, he wanted to full attack. He gets 2 attacks, and he wanted to trip them, then attack twice.

His big plan, was to do it while an opponent was flat-footed or by using flick-of-the-wrist for maximum sneak-attack/trip/rape.

[The_Jackal]

Honestly, from my reading of the rules, tripping is not a standard action, it just takes the place of an attack, so I see no reason why you can't trip as part of a full attack.

Using flick of the wrist more than once per weapon in a given fight is absolutely cheese, and that's where you want to stop an abusive move. Flick is a surprise tactic, and once you've seen someone do it once, it stops being surprising.

But here's the real gotcha: This is a crummy feat combo, in terms of synergy. Unless your rogue is rolling with a LOT of strength (too much, in fact), he's going to have quite a bit of trouble making his trips stick against all but the most noodle-armed opponents. Imp. Trip is a 2 feat combo and while expertise isn't terrible on its own, rogues aren't exactly brimming over with extra feats.

If you really wanted to abuse improved trip, you get it on your fighter, who will have the high strength to make it stick on pretty much everybody except huge+ creatures. Then the rogue can just step in to the flank and full attack the prone opponent. Then the rogue is free to drop feats into stuff that's actually important for the rogue to do, like 2 weapon fighting, Stealthy, Weapon focus, 2 weapon defense, combat reflexes, Nimble fingers, etc.

[Warlawk]

Actually, he wanted to full attack. He gets 2 attacks, and he wanted to trip them, then attack twice.

His big plan, was to do it while an opponent was flat-footed or by using flick-of-the-wrist for maximum sneak-attack/trip/rape.

He makes a full attack.
For his first attack he makes a trip attempt. If the attempt succeeds he immediately makes a free attack at the same AB from Improved Trip.
He then makes his second attack at -5 AB.

It's a pretty standard tactic. Of course... it's a pretty bad tactic for a rogue since they aren't likely to have the strength or feats to really back it up. If the target is flat footed he gets his sneak attack anyways so the trip is really kind of a waste of resources. Heck, if he spends those two feats on the TWF feat chain he's getting 4 attacks with sneak attack against a flat footed opponent instead of two. Additionally, the opponent has no chance to reverse trip and make him drop his weapon.

Bottom line, if your rogue wants to make himself even less effective in combat by tripping, it's kind of his call. Flick of the Wrist actually states in the feat text that it only works one time per combat, so reading the feat in question before deciding it's too good and will break your game is usually a good call.

EDIT: On top of that, both improved trip and flick of the wrist have prereqs. So your rogue is spending 4 feats for an extremely weak combat tactic. Really not something I would worry about as far as breaking your game or being abusive. Flick of the wrist also requires that you attack with a weapon as you draw it so it could not be used with the sickle that was used to trip since that is already in hand.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, he wanted to full attack. He gets 2 attacks, and he wanted to trip them, then attack twice.

His big plan, was to do it while an opponent was flat-footed or by using flick-of-the-wrist for maximum sneak-attack/trip/rape.
If the enemy is flat-footed this might work OK. Of course, that probably means that the Rogue wasted a chance for guaranteed ranged sneak attack in the surprise round and closed for melee instead, and also got lucky and had superior initiative to the target he got adjacent to.

This will cost the Rogue:

4 feats that aren't well-suited to the class (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip for 1/combat; Quick Draw and Flick of the Wrist for another 1/combat)
wasted opportunity to sneak attack in every surprise round
lower average damage (because sickle and rapier have the same base damage, but rapier has 3x the critical chance)
extra equipment, because you've got to draw fresh weapons with Flick of the Wrist
This is pretty much maximum waste. Suggest to the player he make up a second character, because this one is so ineffective he's going to get killed quickly.