Confusing question regarding psionics

[MammonAzrael]

Do you only have a manifester level if your class grants you power points? If that is the case, a Soulknife does not have a manifester level, as it is not a psionic class, correct?

Is there any way to have a manifester level without having a class feature that defines what level of powers you can take. For instance, can you meet the requirements for Expanded Knowledge (manifester level 3rd), but not know any powers or have a class feature granting you powers?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All of a Soulknife's class features are either (Ex) or (Su) so none of them give him a manifester level. A Maenad could use his racial psi-like ability manifester level to qualify, which is often seen when an arcane or divine spellcaster wants Metamorphic Transfer. Unless you have the ability to manifest powers, cast spells, or use spell-like or psi-like abilities, you don't have a caster level or manifester level.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok...so say you have a maenad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#maenads) with 14 levels in fighter. That means they have a manifester level of 7 and meet the prerequisites for Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). They have taken the Psionic Talent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicTalent) feat 4 times, meaning they have 7 power points.

What level of power can they select for Expanded Knowledge? They only know one PLA, energy ray, which is 1st level. However with their manifester level and PP reserve they are theoretically capable of manifesting a 4th level power, right? Can they select a power of 3rd level or lower? Or can they take the feat and not qualify to select any powers at all, effectively gaining nothing from the feat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He cannot currently manifest any powers, not even Energy Ray is considered because it's a psi-like ability. Therefore Expanded Knowledge would give him nothing, one level lower than no ability to manifest powers leaves him no valid choices for what power to pick. He could get Metamorphic Transfer and if Polymorphed into a dragon he could use its breath attack, he can take item creation feats that he meets the manifester level prerequisites for, but that's about all he can use that for other than Energy Ray.

[MammonAzrael]

What about a 18th level Maenad Binder with Abysm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) bound? It would have the requisite manifester level, and it would have 2nd level powers to manifest. But given the manifester level (9th) and PP reseserve, are they technically capable of manifesting higher-level powers? As far as I can tell they would not have the "Maximum Power Level Known" limiter that psionic classes have naturally...so he would theroetically be able to manifest 5th level powers, which would mean he could learn a 4th level power from Expanded Knowledge?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, highest-level-power capability doesn't work that way. A Psychic Warrior 13 has the manifester level and power points to use 7th level powers, but he only has access to and knowledge of 5th level and lower powers. A Psion 5/ Fighter 4 with Practiced Manifester has the manifester level and power points for 5th level powers, but he only has access to and knowledge of 3rd level and lower powers. Your example would only have access to and knowledge of 2nd level and lower powers, regardless of his power points or manifester level.

[MammonAzrael]

Except in both of those example you're using classes that have an explicit entry on their class table that defines what maximum power level they have access to.

The Binder does not have that restriction. So while he only knows 2nd level powers, I haven't found any rulings limiting what powers he has access to. Is there any ruling outside of the class-specific tables that define what powers you have access to?

[Urpriest]

Except in both of those example you're using classes that have an explicit entry on their class table that defines what maximum power level they have access to.

The Binder does not have that restriction. So while he only knows 2nd level powers, I haven't found any rulings limiting what powers he has access to. Is there any ruling outside of the class-specific tables that define what powers you have access to?

To clarify, he's saying that not having a class might make you work like an Ardent. This is interesting...and I don't see anything obvious wrong with it.

[Draz74]

Expanded Knowledge still wouldn't work, though, right? It gives you a new power that's a level lower than a power you already know, from what I understand.

[MammonAzrael]

Not quite. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) It doesn't say you actually need to know any powers, just that you're able to manifest them.

I realize this is a very very strict RAW reading, but I'm considering this question for a homebrew class that gains PP but doesn't learn any powers. So I want the mechanics to fuction right.

[Cog]

...one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest.
What's the highest-level power you can manifest? If you can name a single power that you can manifest that's higher than second level (for the Abysm example), then sure, you're golden.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok, I believe the answer to this question lies in the rules for manifesting a power. Specifically, choosing a power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#choosingAPower). You must select a power you know as one of the requirements. So the binder may meet the PP and ML requirements for 5th level powers, those aren't all the requirements.

So for Expanded Knowledge you must have enough PP to manifest the power, have a high enough ML, and know a power 1 level higher, because knowing the power is part of the requirements for being able to manifest it. Shiny.

EDIT: Crap, now I'm over thinking it again. When Expanded Knowledge says "one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest," it it talking about a specific power that you know, or is it talking about the highest level power you could manifest, provided you knew it?

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

If a 9th-level psion took a bunch of 4th level powers at 9th level and no 5th level ones, I would say that he could still use expanded knowledge to get yet another 4th-level power.

Not so for a psion 8 / fighter 1, though. 4th level is still the highest-level power he could possibly have taken as a psion, so the maximum expanded knowledge will give him is still 3.

Does that make sense?

What is your homebrew trying to do, anyway? It sounds like it would actually have little to do with what the actual manifesters are doing.

[MammonAzrael]

Your interpertation would lend support to the theory that a high enough level binder with a manifester level with Abysm bound would be able to learn powers of 2nd and above. Because Psions have an entry on their class table specifying what level powers they are capable of knowing, while the binder does not.

So, sadly, I don't think that really helps clear up my confusion.

The class, in its initial thoughts, was to be a combination of monk and soulknife; a class that focused on strength of self. I was intended to keep the psionic angle, but grant more PP so it felt like a "real" psionic class, and have them able to spend the PP to augment their mindblade and other features. And having the option to select Expanded Knowledge was an interesting way to allow it to manifest, but not step on the psychic warrior's toes too much. But first I need to figure out how expanded knowledge works. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

If a 9th-level psion took a bunch of 4th level powers at 9th level and no 5th level ones, I would say that he could still use expanded knowledge to get yet another 4th-level power.

Not the way I read it. AFAICT, a Psion could be Level 15 and take Expanded Knowledge and still not be able to pick a Level 5+ power, if he's never gotten a Level 6+ power in his normal progression.

[Theodoxus]

Your interpertation would lend support to the theory that a high enough level binder with a manifester level with Abysm bound would be able to learn powers of 2nd and above. Because Psions have an entry on their class table specifying what level powers they are capable of knowing, while the binder does not.

So, sadly, I don't think that really helps clear up my confusion.

The class, in its initial thoughts, was to be a combination of monk and soulknife; a class that focused on strength of self. I was intended to keep the psionic angle, but grant more PP so it felt like a "real" psionic class, and have them able to spend the PP to augment their mindblade and other features. And having the option to select Expanded Knowledge was an interesting way to allow it to manifest, but not step on the psychic warrior's toes too much. But first I need to figure out how expanded knowledge works. :smallsmile:

Wouldn't the easiest option be to consider his class level his manifester level? It'd be a blurb under the section explaining why the class has PP. You could even have the ML affect the various monk-like abilities at that point.

Or go with some fraction - 3/4 Char Level = ML would probably be safest (then you're not dealing with obnoxious, if limited, powers)

[MammonAzrael]

I know that I have options to ensure that now wackiness happens, or sto set things up exactly how I want them for my homebrew. That was only really the starting point, as now I'm curious about the question just because. As there are situations where it can come up, like with the binder.